Recall of MEC Chair & Vice Chair

[Dias]

Not sure anyone, except maybe the executives have kept up with inflation since 2002(23 years ago)! What’s your point?

It's hard to find Canadian data but on average in the US wages have outpaced inflation.

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[Core]

I touched on this in another post, but I think ALPA Canada needs to nut up, in serious way. I just don't have confidence they are truly fighting for pilots, just fighting to grow their membership. This sentiment is growing as their fragility seems to be more exposed.

Every airline who joins ALPA has high hopes of vastly improved working conditions, and there's never a true change. Never. It happens over and over. They can provide a measure of job protection which is welcome, but beyond that in a negotiating capacity, I have concerns.
We saw the FA's give er. We saw the WJ AME's hand it to the company.

There are many really good people volunteering their time to help their fellow pilots, but does anyone here think Tim Perry, or any ALPA executive is willing to go to jail for their members like the support we just saw from Hancock? The results speak volumes.

Did not WJ ALPA and AC ALPA get bigger compensation increases than AC CUPE?

To confess, that could be true, I haven't looked at the overall gains, but from different starting points wouldn't it be difficult to compare? I'm just going by the simple metric of the increase from the company's final offer. Had CUPE not done what they did, they would have left a chunk on the table.

[Bede]

To confess, that could be true, I haven't looked at the overall gains, but from different starting points wouldn't it be difficult to compare? I'm just going by the simple metric of the increase from the company's final offer. Had CUPE not done what they did, they would have left a chunk on the table.

True. The problem is that the Liberal have screwed Labour Relations up so bad. If one party is convinced the government will step in (as the CEO admitted), of course they will hold back and not bargain in good faith. This will need a rewrite of the Canada Labour Code. The idea is to avoid work disruptions. Now, every corporation will realize they need to hold back, and every union knows they need to strike to get the last bit. This is bad for everyone.

[Fanblade]

Were the "gains" more than 2002 plus inflation? Genuine question. I'm not sure they were.

Not sure anyone, except maybe the executives have kept up with inflation since 2002(23 years ago)! What’s your point?

The point is that's not a raise. It's a pay cut. And that's not even taking into account the exponential cost of living increase that's occurred. Here's the 2003 pay scale if you need to do the math:

I realize there are good arguments that the increased cost of housing hasn’t reflected well in the CPI. However the whole point of catching up with inflation is to keep up with the cost of living. Your statement in bold is inaccurate.

The statement about catching up is not a pay increase is accurate IMO.


Let’s check how we did against that exponential cost of living increase you speak of.

12 year 737 CA. (2003)

(190.5745+215.8359)/2 =203.205

203.205 put into the BoC inflation calculator spits out $325.45

Within a week the 737 CA 12 year rate is $324 and change.

If inflation stays below 3% for the next year. The 4% September 2026 raise will place the 12 year 737 CA ever so slightly above 2003 wages adjusted for inflation.

Conclusion. Inflation losses caught up. Actual raise beyond inflation small. A little unknown fact. We were never paid 2003 wages. They came into effect April 3, 2003. We went into bankruptcy April 1, 2003. If you use 2002 wages adjusted for inflation we are up by a couple of percent. Still small but worth pointing out.

My opinion. A very big step in the right direction. More to be done for sure especially on QOL issues.

If you look around at bargaining groups in Canada. Almost no one is keeping up with the recent spike in inflation let alone recovering 2 decades worth of it. I think many have underestimated just how big of an achievement this was.

I would also completely agree if someone called me out because I just swapped the benchmarks. We were looking for US wage equivalently NOT simply catching up with inflation. On the US wage and working conditions benchmark we obviously fell well short.

However when people say we didn’t even keep up with our pre bankruptcy selves? That narrative is inaccurate.

Historically we were paid the same as our US counterparts but in CAD. Our pay scales are back to this historical norm. The Canadian dollar in late 1990’s early 2000’s was around 63 cents. We have never been paid the same as US pilots after exchange with one exception. US bankruptcies in the mid 2000’s combined with the CAD rising above the USD at the same time. I’m not suggesting an after FX wage equivalency isn’t a great goal. However it is something, that historically, has never been achieved. That narrative also a myth.



Note.

-This does not apply to RP’s or anyone on year 3 & 4. They are all below inflation.
-This does not apply to year 1 & 2. Believe it or not those wages are the only ones to exceed 2003 adjusted for inflation immediately.
-PCP Percent of Captain pay from 2003 not fully restored for F0’s.

[Fanblade]

The FA’s were 36% behind inflation on the bottom of their pay grid and 25% behind inflation on the top.

Their results, when arbitration is done, will be dramatically behind the pilot groups.

Starting wage for a FA, pre bankruptcy was $31/hour. Adjusted for inflation to today $49/ hour.

Arbitration won’t move the needle much. The TA was $33/hour starting plus boarding pay.

These reduced wages are now engrained as the new normal. This is the direction Canadian pilots were also heading in if we didn’t act.

[Fanblade]

The LEC recall resolutions for the ACA MEC chair were driven by the pilots that thought ACA could have done better by going on strike and also figured that they would have been immune to any government/CIRB orders to return to work if they had walked. Now that it’s obvious that striking isn’t really an option for ACA employees, it would appear that Charlene did the right thing after all by recommending ratification of the deal negotiated at the 11th hour with management . ACA pilots got a good deal(by Canadian standards) after all, and probably would have been screwed into binding arbitration had they walked. Next time you see Charlene you should thank her.

+1

Every time I run into her or Jesse.

The problem was expectations, inaccurate narratives and lack of process understanding.

However that is a MEC responsibility. Someone is going to get hit with crap coming off that fan. It’s usually the leadership.

I’m pretty certain the history books will treat Charlene well so long as they stay accurate.

[twa22]

Fair points Fanblade, however, you pointed out the 737 CA wages... what about the other fleets?

I just took the 747 YR 14 CA wage and compared it to current top scale YR 12 777 CA

747 = 283.24+308.51/2 = 295.88 in 2003, adjusted for inflation = 473.85 in 2025

777 = 441.57 as of Sep 30, 2025

That's just under 7% less

And if we want to argue the 747 is bigger/more pax, etc

Take the 330/340 scale

YR 14 CA 2003 scale = 246.94 + 275.6/2 = 261.27, adjusted for inflation = 418.44

September 30,2025 YR 12 CA = 398.05

5% less then 2003 wages

how about on the FO side

Year 8 A320 FO 2003 wages = 122.44 + 136.89 = 129.67, adjusted for inflation = 207.37

September 30, 2025 YR 8 FO = 188.50

9% less

I understand what you're saying that those wages never existed due to 2003 bankruptcy... but either you cherry picked the 737 CA wages on purpose, or it was an honest mistake, because the widebody pay and even FO pay clearly still lags 2003 pay adjusted for inflation

[Fanblade]

Twa22,

All great questions.

I chose the 737 because it is one of the cleanest aircraft to use without dealing with type differences, variant difference or targeted pay reductions.

First off you can't compare 747 with a 777. We are still paid by formula pay. Look in the appendix of our contract to see the formula and compare a 747 from 2003 to a virtual 747 today. Or conversely recreate a virtual 777 from 2003 and inflation adjust that number.

Second the 330. Again formula pay. We were paid the highest variant weight pre bankruptcy. When the 340's were removed from the fleet post bankruptcy the rates dropped. It was grandfathered for a bit. Again go into the appendix in our contract to see formula pay and compare a 340 from 2003 to a virtual 340 today. I think the heaviest variant was a 340-500. My memory could be off though. Or conversely go back to the 330/340 (2003) wage and recalculate it for just the 330. Then inflation adjust that number to today.

Third the 320 wages. The 320 is the only remaining aircraft in the fleet that pays the highest variant weight rather than a blend. The 320 XLR was supposed to be here by now. Expect a raise in the new year.

However there is another issue I should have mentioned in the exception notes.

FO's all took a 3-7% pay cut in formula pay during TA1 depending on YOS. Year 7-8 is where that impact is the highest. PCP or percent of Captain pay. That cut was not fully restored. The combo of the two are impacting the 320 FO wage.

This still needs correction like RP and year 3/4.

To fully correct our wages to 2003 adjusted for inflation three things are remaining.

1)RP wages
2)Year 3/4 wages
3)FO PCP

New hire wages are not mentioned NOT because I think they are good enough. They are not mentioned because when comparing to 2003, today’s wages, believe it or not, exceed inflation. I am in no way implying I had to do it so do you. I’m simply stating an inflation adjusted wage argument won’t work for new hires.

[twa22]

Thanks for the clarifications Fanblade, I figured the 777 and 747 weren't exactly comparable, but didn't realize the 330 pay was a blend of the 340-500, which is significantly bigger...I never understood the formula pay thing but now that you mentioned it, it does make sense.

I took a look at 767 rates, as those shouldn't theoretically have been affected, much like the 737 rates, and indeed, the 2003 rates adjusted for Sep 2025 for YR 12 CA comes out to 375.77, versus Sep 2025 being 373, 0.8% difference, which is negligible.

[Fanblade]

Thanks for the clarifications Fanblade, I figured the 777 and 747 weren't exactly comparable, but didn't realize the 330 pay was a blend of the 340-500, which is significantly bigger...I never understood the formula pay thing but now that you mentioned it, it does make sense.

I took a look at 767 rates, as those shouldn't theoretically have been affected, much like the 737 rates, and indeed, the 2003 rates adjusted for Sep 2025 for YR 12 CA comes out to 375.77, versus Sep 2025 being 373, 0.8% difference, which is negligible.

No thank you. The question was great

[twa22]

You edited in your post regarding new hire wages... what were those? It's obvious from the table that the hourly starts from YR 3, and while I would like to see higher wages all around, I am a reasonable person and can see that at least for the most part, wages in the new contract are on par to what they were over 20 years ago (or at least supposed to be pre 03 bankruptcy)

[Fanblade]

You edited in your post regarding new hire wages... what were those? It's obvious from the table that the hourly starts from YR 3, and while I would like to see higher wages all around, I am a reasonable person and can see that at least for the most part, wages in the new contract are on par to what they were over 20 years ago (or at least supposed to be pre 03 bankruptcy)

I edited to make sure I wasn’t saying those wages were okay. I’m not home at the moment but will get them for you later.

Cheers

[AV80R]

It always amazes me that people will go online and argue that we shouldn't be paid more.

[twa22]

You edited in your post regarding new hire wages... what were those? It's obvious from the table that the hourly starts from YR 3, and while I would like to see higher wages all around, I am a reasonable person and can see that at least for the most part, wages in the new contract are on par to what they were over 20 years ago (or at least supposed to be pre 03 bankruptcy)

I edited to make sure I wasn’t saying those wages were okay. I’m not home at the moment but will get them for you later.

Cheers

No worries, I appreciate your insight and I hope others do to

Cheers

[twa22]

It always amazes me that people will go online and argue that we shouldn't be paid more.

Your reading comprehension is clearly lacking because that's not what fanblade is saying...

[Fanblade]

It always amazes me that people will go online and argue that we shouldn't be paid more.

You’re putting words in my mouth. I never said that.

The question is where are we in relation to our 2003 wages adjusted to inflation. There is a lot of misunderstanding against this benchmark. Think of this bench mark as a waypoint on route to your destination. It just means you accurately know where you are. It doesn’t mean my goal is to stop at 52N100W

We keep leapfrogging each other and before you know it everyone in this country will exceed our 2003 wages adjusted for inflation on route to our long term goal.

[Fanblade]

You edited in your post regarding new hire wages... what were those? It's obvious from the table that the hourly starts from YR 3, and while I would like to see higher wages all around, I am a reasonable person and can see that at least for the most part, wages in the new contract are on par to what they were over 20 years ago (or at least supposed to be pre 03 bankruptcy)

I edited to make sure I wasn’t saying those wages were okay. I’m not home at the moment but will get them for you later.

Cheers

No worries, I appreciate your insight and I hope others do to

Cheers

Prior to bankruptcy new hire wages were monthly.

2003 Flat salary
year 1) $3751.87/month
Year 2) 4262.29/month

[crystalpizza]

Twa22,

All great questions.

I chose the 737 because it is one of the cleanest aircraft to use without dealing with type differences, variant difference or targeted pay reductions.

First off you can't compare 747 with a 777. We are still paid by formula pay. Look in the appendix of our contract to see the formula and compare a 747 from 2003 to a virtual 747 today. Or conversely recreate a virtual 777 from 2003 and inflation adjust that number.

Second the 330. Again formula pay. We were paid the highest variant weight pre bankruptcy. When the 340's were removed from the fleet post bankruptcy the rates dropped. It was grandfathered for a bit. Again go into the appendix in our contract to see formula pay and compare a 340 from 2003 to a virtual 340 today. I think the heaviest variant was a 340-500. My memory could be off though. Or conversely go back to the 330/340 (2003) wage and recalculate it for just the 330. Then inflation adjust that number to today.

Third the 320 wages. The 320 is the only remaining aircraft in the fleet that pays the highest variant weight rather than a blend. The 320 XLR was supposed to be here by now. Expect a raise in the new year.

However there is another issue I should have mentioned in the exception notes.

FO's all took a 3-7% pay cut in formula pay during TA1 depending on YOS. Year 7-8 is where that impact is the highest. PCP or percent of Captain pay. That cut was not fully restored. The combo of the two are impacting the 320 FO wage.

This still needs correction like RP and year 3/4.

To fully correct our wages to 2003 adjusted for inflation three things are remaining.

1)RP wages
2)Year 3/4 wages
3)FO PCP

New hire wages are not mentioned NOT because I think they are good enough. They are not mentioned because when comparing to 2003, today’s wages, believe it or not, exceed inflation. I am in no way implying I had to do it so do you. I’m simply stating an inflation adjusted wage argument won’t work for new hires.

Was there not a pay cut for all 320 pilots during TA1 and not just FOs? Y12 320 CA pay is also about 5% behind 2003+inflation in 2025.

[Fanblade]

Twa22,

All great questions.

I chose the 737 because it is one of the cleanest aircraft to use without dealing with type differences, variant difference or targeted pay reductions.

First off you can't compare 747 with a 777. We are still paid by formula pay. Look in the appendix of our contract to see the formula and compare a 747 from 2003 to a virtual 747 today. Or conversely recreate a virtual 777 from 2003 and inflation adjust that number.

Second the 330. Again formula pay. We were paid the highest variant weight pre bankruptcy. When the 340's were removed from the fleet post bankruptcy the rates dropped. It was grandfathered for a bit. Again go into the appendix in our contract to see formula pay and compare a 340 from 2003 to a virtual 340 today. I think the heaviest variant was a 340-500. My memory could be off though. Or conversely go back to the 330/340 (2003) wage and recalculate it for just the 330. Then inflation adjust that number to today.

Third the 320 wages. The 320 is the only remaining aircraft in the fleet that pays the highest variant weight rather than a blend. The 320 XLR was supposed to be here by now. Expect a raise in the new year.

However there is another issue I should have mentioned in the exception notes.

FO's all took a 3-7% pay cut in formula pay during TA1 depending on YOS. Year 7-8 is where that impact is the highest. PCP or percent of Captain pay. That cut was not fully restored. The combo of the two are impacting the 320 FO wage.

This still needs correction like RP and year 3/4.

To fully correct our wages to 2003 adjusted for inflation three things are remaining.

1)RP wages
2)Year 3/4 wages
3)FO PCP

New hire wages are not mentioned NOT because I think they are good enough. They are not mentioned because when comparing to 2003, today’s wages, believe it or not, exceed inflation. I am in no way implying I had to do it so do you. I’m simply stating an inflation adjusted wage argument won’t work for new hires.

Was there not a pay cut for all 320 pilots during TA1 and not just FOs? Y12 320 CA pay is also about 5% behind 2003+inflation in 2025.

The 5% pay cut for the 320 was coming out of Bankruptcy. Not during TA1. After the XLR shows up that discrepancy should be erased. We will know for certain when the 320 gets a new pay scale with the arrival of the XLR.

All we have to do is take 2003 and inflation adjust it to today. The number should be similar. Currently the 320 lags inflation by a few percent.

[crystalpizza]

Thanks. That still should have/should be fixed on its own, any raise the XLR brings should be above and beyond that. Plus based on the weight difference I wouldn't expect the XLRs to bring a 5% raise - for a 320 CA a 5% raise would be $15-20 an hour. I've been hearing the XLRs will increase the CA rates by maybe a couple dollars if that.

[twa22]

I edited to make sure I wasn’t saying those wages were okay. I’m not home at the moment but will get them for you later.

Cheers

No worries, I appreciate your insight and I hope others do to

Cheers

Prior to bankruptcy new hire wages were monthly.

2003 Flat salary
year 1) $3751.87/month
Year 2) 4262.29/month

Thank you, a bit of an eye opener that the latest contract is a modest bit over what yrs 1 and 2 were in 2003

From my math

3751.87 is 6008.83 a month in 2025

Yr1 FO is currently 90.98 an hour as of Sep 2025, and from what I've gathered is the minimum pay per year is 900 hours, which equates to 81882 a year, or 6823.5 a month

While reality is that AC wages on this new TA have come close to matching, matched, or slightly exceeded inflarion in the the last 20 years or so, I think the biggest problem that everyone (not just pilots) faces is the housing crisis, and this in turn skews the reality of wages. In 2003 you could by a house near YYZ for 250-350k...now,well we know those same houses are a million or more...

[Fanblade]

Thanks. That still should have/should be fixed on its own, any raise the XLR brings should be above and beyond that. Plus based on the weight difference I wouldn't expect the XLRs to bring a 5% raise - for a 320 CA a 5% raise would be $15-20 an hour. I've been hearing the XLRs will increase the CA rates by maybe a couple dollars if that.

To be frank no wages caught up to 2003 inflation adjusted to today with the arrival of the new contract. Not for any aircraft. It was close but not quite.

Notice that I needed to use two of the 4% increases to finally catch up to inflation. If inflation pops it could conceivably be the last 4% is required as well. Then a new 320 variant required to boot.

Not defending just explaining. It does look like the 737 and 320 were basically pay grouped in the new contract.

It is the end state of the contract I'm looking at. It is what matters because that is the starting point for the next CA.

Yes slower than anyone wants.

[thepoors]

Not sure anyone, except maybe the executives have kept up with inflation since 2002(23 years ago)! What’s your point?

The point is that's not a raise. It's a pay cut. And that's not even taking into account the exponential cost of living increase that's occurred. Here's the 2003 pay scale if you need to do the math:

I realize there are good arguments that the increased cost of housing hasn’t reflected well in the CPI. However the whole point of catching up with inflation is to keep up with the cost of living. Your statement in bold is inaccurate.

The statement about catching up is not a pay increase is accurate IMO.


Let’s check how we did against that exponential cost of living increase you speak of.

12 year 737 CA. (2003)

(190.5745+215.8359)/2 =203.205

203.205 put into the BoC inflation calculator spits out $325.45

Within a week the 737 CA 12 year rate is $324 and change.

If inflation stays below 3% for the next year. The 4% September 2026 raise will place the 12 year 737 CA ever so slightly above 2003 wages adjusted for inflation.

Conclusion. Inflation losses caught up. Actual raise beyond inflation small. A little unknown fact. We were never paid 2003 wages. They came into effect April 3, 2003. We went into bankruptcy April 1, 2003. If you use 2002 wages adjusted for inflation we are up by a couple of percent. Still small but worth pointing out.

My opinion. A very big step in the right direction. More to be done for sure especially on QOL issues.

If you look around at bargaining groups in Canada. Almost no one is keeping up with the recent spike in inflation let alone recovering 2 decades worth of it. I think many have underestimated just how big of an achievement this was.

I would also completely agree if someone called me out because I just swapped the benchmarks. We were looking for US wage equivalently NOT simply catching up with inflation. On the US wage and working conditions benchmark we obviously fell well short.

However when people say we didn’t even keep up with our pre bankruptcy selves? That narrative is inaccurate.

Historically we were paid the same as our US counterparts but in CAD. Our pay scales are back to this historical norm. The Canadian dollar in late 1990’s early 2000’s was around 63 cents. We have never been paid the same as US pilots after exchange with one exception. US bankruptcies in the mid 2000’s combined with the CAD rising above the USD at the same time. I’m not suggesting an after FX wage equivalency isn’t a great goal. However it is something, that historically, has never been achieved. That narrative also a myth.



Note.

-This does not apply to RP’s or anyone on year 3 & 4. They are all below inflation.
-This does not apply to year 1 & 2. Believe it or not those wages are the only ones to exceed 2003 adjusted for inflation immediately.
-PCP Percent of Captain pay from 2003 not fully restored for F0’s.

You totally misunderstood my point about cost of living increases. You're simply calculating inflation (in which we still barely keep up). Inflation and cost of living are two completely separate things. I'll lay it out for you in a few simple examples:

In 2003 the median Canadian household income was $56,000. The average home price was around $200,000. I.e. average home was less than 4x median income.
In 2023 the median Canadian household income was $74,000. The average home price was around $650,000. I.e. average home cost nearly 9x the median income.

In 2003 the average price of a new passenger car was $25,000. I.e. a new vehicle was less than half the average household income.
In 2023 the average price of a new passenger car was $68,000. I.e. a new vehicle was nearly an entire years' average household income.

In 2010 the average household spent $5700 on groceries, and the median household income was $65,000. I.e. household spent 8.7% of their income on food.
In 2023 the average household spent $8700 on groceries, and the median household income was $74,000. I.e. households spent 11.7% of their income on food.

Therefore, cost of living has increased exponentially even when accounting for inflation. You are out to lunch if you don't think we are far worse off than the guys who were making those 2003 pay scales. It's not even close.

All of these figures I quotee can be found on statscan btw.

[Fanblade]

I realize there are good arguments that the increased cost of housing hasn’t reflected well in the CPI. However the whole point of catching up with inflation is to keep up with the cost of living. Your statement in bold is inaccurate.

You totally misunderstood my point about cost of living increases. You're simply calculating inflation (in which we still barely keep up). Inflation and cost of living are two completely separate things. I'll lay it out for you in a few simple examples:

In 2003 the median Canadian household income was $56,000. The average home price was around $200,000. I.e. average home was less than 4x median income.
In 2023 the median Canadian household income was $74,000. The average home price was around $650,000. I.e. average home cost nearly 9x the median income.

In 2003 the average price of a new passenger car was $25,000. I.e. a new vehicle was less than half the average household income.
In 2023 the average price of a new passenger car was $68,000. I.e. a new vehicle was nearly an entire years' average household income.

In 2010 the average household spent $5700 on groceries, and the median household income was $65,000. I.e. household spent 8.7% of their income on food.
In 2023 the average household spent $8700 on groceries, and the median household income was $74,000. I.e. households spent 11.7% of their income on food.

Therefore, cost of living has increased exponentially even when accounting for inflation. You are out to lunch if you don't think we are far worse off than the guys who were making those 2003 pay scales. It's not even close.

All of these figures I quotee can be found on statscan btw.

I stand by my statement now highlighted in bold. A conversation about how housing has been reflected in the CPI (or not) is a completely different convo. Your basically arguing CPI, the basket of goods and they way it is calculated is flawed. I agree.

However it is also all we have.

I don't in anyway want to diminish the impact the housing crisis has had on young people. I agree with you.

However Air Canada did not create the issue. It is an issue everyone in your demographic has to deal with. All the way from a clerk in a store, to a plumber, to a teacher and my children. Fair? Nope.

Everyone starting out today is worse off than previous generations. Absolutely everyone. You will get no disagreement from me.

As for cars. Luxury cars are way more prevelent these days. Past generations didn't buy them. It was very rare to see a porche, beamer or Mercedes.

The cars I buy have gone up with inflation.

My father flew in the hay day of pilot wages. When I was a kid only a handful of restaurants existed. We rarely ever ate out. Today restaurants are everywhere. For that to be profitable people are eating out on mass. Puting a service provider between your food and stomach adds personal food inflation.

My point. Some of what you are talking about is personal choice.

The exception of course is housing. But you can't hold Air Canada accountable for it. Government yes.

[Booming]

I was flying with the FAs and they are still wearing their green lanyards. What a great crew!

Whatever happened to all those World Class Contract lanyards?!