Recall of MEC Chair & Vice Chair

[BTD]

I was flying with the FAs and they are still wearing their green lanyards. What a great crew!

Whatever happened to all those World Class Contract lanyards?!

They voted down their contract and will be commencing arbitration. We voted for ours.

[Bede]

You are out to lunch if you don't think we are far worse off than the guys who were making those 2003 pay scales. It's not even close.

That may be true but if it was 2003 most pilots that work for AC now would never have been hired back then. Far fewer jobs available. Now airlines hire anyone with a pulse. (Me included of course.)

[Fanblade]

While reality is that AC wages on this new TA have come close to matching, matched, or slightly exceeded inflarion in the the last 20 years or so, I think the biggest problem that everyone (not just pilots) faces is the housing crisis, and this in turn skews the reality of wages. In 2003 you could by a house near YYZ for 250-350k...now,well we know those same houses are a million or more...

This is just my personal opinion on how to deal with this.

Although Air Canada didn’t create the housing crises, they still employ people impacted by it and will need to find creative ways to adapt for their own good.

To be frank. At this very moment AC is nowhere near this realization. But it will eventually come. Low wage jobs in the highest cost of living cities gets difficult to attract quality. New hire FA’s living full time in crash pads for example. Sounds just depressing. Now that it’s clear these starting positions will remain at or below minimum wage? Will attracting young people become more difficult?

10 years ago some of the east cost regionals in the US started commuting FA ‘s in from places like Baltimore to sit reserve in New York. Why? They couldn’t staff the position in New York. They either had to increase the pay OR bring FA’s in from elsewhere. Bringing in FA’s from elsewhere was cheaper than paying a NYC/EWR living wage

What the pilot group needs in my opinion is a robust commuting policy that includes secure ways of getting to work if needed. AC currently loathes this idea. They fear it. They believe people will be irresponsible. Achieving the first commuter policy in AC history in the last contract was like pulling teeth.

However I think eventually AC will realize, like other airlines across North America, that the cost of living in some of our hubs is detrimental to both the employer and employee. That airlines have a unique in house way of bringing in people from other places in response.

Much of this is already happening. Commuting has exploded at Air Canada. Depending on how you define commuting we are approaching 40% of all pilots and a majority of new pilots. The problem is that we now have more people competing for a finite amount of seats. Weather events, with their inherent operational integrity issues, are compounded by crews not making it to base. We have already started seeing crew sked pos people to protect the operation.

Progress will be slow until we get a different mindset in upper management. But eventually it will come.

[CPU2000]

I was flying with the FAs and they are still wearing their green lanyards. What a great crew!

Whatever happened to all those World Class Contract lanyards?!

They voted down their contract and will be commencing arbitration. We voted for ours.

We sure did...

Did the FAs give up their bonus?!

[Fanblade]

I was flying with the FAs and they are still wearing their green lanyards. What a great crew!

Whatever happened to all those World Class Contract lanyards?!

They voted down their contract and will be commencing arbitration. We voted for ours.

We sure did...

Did the FAs give up their bonus?!

You do realize a new hire FA gets more value out of shine points than their bonus? I’ve seen year end pay stubs of new FA’s in the 24k range that included their bonus. They didn’t get even close to catching their pre bankruptcy wages. You sure you want to compare to them?

Personally I think we should stick to comparing ourselves to other pilots. We can do this multiple different ways. We can compare ourselves to the past which we have been doing for the last couple of pages. We can compare ourselves inside Canada, inside North America and the world. All of them are useful to track progress or the lack there of. We weren’t doing this at ACPA and lost sight of the ball.



Behind door number 1. My pre new contract gross pay. Everything included. Meal Money, shoes allowance, dry cleaning, simulator.

2022 - $245,000. This incluses bonus

2023 - $242,000. This includes bonus



Behind door number 2. My post new contract gross pay. YOS the same. Aircraft the same. Same line on my final Dec pay check.

2024 - $348,000. Includes bonus and retro pay.

2025 - $330,000 projected. No bonus.


Personally I don’t care how it ends up in my pocket. Just that it does. I also prefer for sure money over maybe money.

[twa22]

While reality is that AC wages on this new TA have come close to matching, matched, or slightly exceeded inflarion in the the last 20 years or so, I think the biggest problem that everyone (not just pilots) faces is the housing crisis, and this in turn skews the reality of wages. In 2003 you could by a house near YYZ for 250-350k...now,well we know those same houses are a million or more...

This is just my personal opinion on how to deal with this.

Although Air Canada didn’t create the housing crises, they still employ people impacted by it and will need to find creative ways to adapt for their own good.

To be frank. At this very moment AC is nowhere near this realization. But it will eventually come. Low wage jobs in the highest cost of living cities gets difficult to attract quality. New hire FA’s living full time in crash pads for example. Sounds just depressing. Now that it’s clear these starting positions will remain at or below minimum wage? Will attracting young people become more difficult?

10 years ago some of the east cost regionals in the US started commuting FA ‘s in from places like Baltimore to sit reserve in New York. Why? They couldn’t staff the position in New York. They either had to increase the pay OR bring FA’s in from elsewhere. Bringing in FA’s from elsewhere was cheaper than paying a NYC/EWR living wage

What the pilot group needs in my opinion is a robust commuting policy that includes secure ways of getting to work if needed. AC currently loathes this idea. They fear it. They believe people will be irresponsible. Achieving the first commuter policy in AC history in the last contract was like pulling teeth.

However I think eventually AC will realize, like other airlines across North America, that the cost of living in some of our hubs is detrimental to both the employer and employee. That airlines have a unique in house way of bringing in people from other places in response.

Much of this is already happening. Commuting has exploded at Air Canada. Depending on how you define commuting we are approaching 40% of all pilots and a majority of new pilots. The problem is that we now have more people competing for a finite amount of seats. Weather events, with their inherent operational integrity issues, are compounded by crews not making it to base. We have already started seeing crew sked pos people to protect the operation.

Progress will be slow until we get a different mindset in upper management. But eventually it will come.

Everything in this life is an eventuality, it's a matter of how bad does it have to get, or how bad does one let it get, before something finally gives... Change is usually brought on by something drastic, only time will tell

[Fanblade]

True. I am old enough to have watched the 1980’s housing correction. It happens when FOMO is replaced by FOLE. Fear of losing everything.

Which is why no one can really predict a housing market correction. It’s a public mindset driving the market and that mindset is irrational.

But if the market ever tips you will be happy to be on the outside looking in. Investors run. Foreigners run. Banks run. New entrants run. The cycle self perpetuates in the other direction.

Just before it happens no one saw it coming. Right after it happens? Everyone saw it coming.

[Hysteria]

They voted down their contract and will be commencing arbitration. We voted for ours.

We sure did...

Did the FAs give up their bonus?!

You do realize a new hire FA gets more value out of shine points than their bonus? I’ve seen year end pay stubs of new FA’s in the 24k range that included their bonus. They didn’t get even close to catching their pre bankruptcy wages. You sure you want to compare to them?

Personally I think we should stick to comparing ourselves to other pilots. We can do this multiple different ways. We can compare ourselves to the past which we have been doing for the last couple of pages. We can compare ourselves inside Canada, inside North America and the world. All of them are useful to track progress or the lack there of. We weren’t doing this at ACPA and lost sight of the ball.



Behind door number 1. My pre new contract gross pay. Everything included. Meal Money, shoes allowance, dry cleaning, simulator.

2022 - $245,000. This incluses bonus

2023 - $242,000. This includes bonus



Behind door number 2. My post new contract gross pay. YOS the same. Aircraft the same. Same line on my final Dec pay check.

2024 - $348,000. Includes bonus and retro pay.

2025 - $330,000 projected. No bonus.


Personally I don’t care how it ends up in my pocket. Just that it does. I also prefer for sure money over maybe money.

Just curious, is this NB CA? WB FO?

[Fanblade]

Just curious, is this NB CA? WB FO?

12 year NB CA.

[Hysteria]

Just curious, is this NB CA? WB FO?

12 year NB CA.

Ahh yes, I see now you said 737 previous page. Great insight as always.

Now for that 12hr long call reserve.. one day maybe.

[BTD]

I was flying with the FAs and they are still wearing their green lanyards. What a great crew!

Whatever happened to all those World Class Contract lanyards?!

They voted down their contract and will be commencing arbitration. We voted for ours.

We sure did...

Did the FAs give up their bonus?!

I am simply pointing out that it wouldn’t make sense to continue wearing our lanyards, but in the case of the FAs it makes perfect sense.

[FelixGustof]

Lol...so Air Canada pilots took concessions like losing their bonus while the FAs didn't?

Hahaha

[altiplano]

Lol...so Air Canada pilots took concessions like losing their bonus while the FAs didn't?

Hahaha

No. AC pilots converted corporate performance based variable incentives into guaranteed money.

[737Drver]

Lol...so Air Canada pilots took concessions like losing their bonus while the FAs didn't?

Hahaha

No. AC pilots converted corporate performance based variable incentives into guaranteed money.

Lol...

So you cant have both...

Like every other legacy carrier.

LOL

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Y'all need to remember this is the same pilot group that voted in cargo concessions in the name of "capturing flying" so no surprise there are some that come up with "secured money".

This is despite the fact you can have both a large wage increase AND a bonus.

I guess maybe now it is "capture the secured money" moving forward? With concessions to do that???

[altiplano]

Lol...so Air Canada pilots took concessions like losing their bonus while the FAs didn't?

Hahaha

No. AC pilots converted corporate performance based variable incentives into guaranteed money.

Lol...

So you cant have both...

Like every other legacy carrier.

LOL

You can, but if I had to take one or the other, or had the chance to convert so called profit share to real guaranteed pay, I will take the guaranteed pay every time.

One of the greatest moves of the C-suite is convincing you to maybe sometimes get paid a few kibbles out of a plan that they control the metrics on and was capped and had only paid in a few of the recent years - you know, share in THEIR success - instead of just taking the fucking money. Guaranteed, pensionable, premium/override compounding, money. They can keep their voodoo accounting.

[Freshredmeat]

The $800 million in share buyback backs last year after the contract was the best

[altiplano]

Y'all need to remember this is the same pilot group that voted in cargo concessions in the name of "capturing flying" so no surprise there are some that come up with "secured money".

This is despite the fact you can have both a large wage increase AND a bonus.

I guess maybe now it is "capture the secured money" moving forward? With concessions to do that???

I'd rather have the larger wage increase than the large wage increase.

@#$! the bonus, pay me more.

[Fanblade]

Lol...so Air Canada pilots took concessions like losing their bonus while the FAs didn't?

Hahaha

No. AC pilots converted corporate performance based variable incentives into guaranteed money.

Lol...

So you cant have both...

Like every other legacy carrier.

LOL

You can divide up the pot anyway you like.

The hard part is making the pot bigger.

Insinuating that you know, the pot could have been bigger is something you can’t know. Not even the MEC or NC know with absolute certainty if every dime was captured. It’s the nature of negotiations.

Based on what I know. We were close to getting every dime. I used the word close deliberately because it is the most accurate way to describe negotiations. You know you’re getting close to all there is. You can tell by how the other side starts responding. They start moving money rather than new money for example.

At that point you know there isn’t much left or anything at all. Then you start weighing your options to try and force more. Resorting to self help for example. But one of the questions you have to ask yourself is would that create a bigger pot?

107 is an influential obstacle to making the pot bigger through self help. We just watched that movie.

Choices needed to be made. Tough choices. They were made by those we elected. For me that is enough. If they got every dime? I don’t know. It’s a known unknown and always will be.

[Chateau]

Y'all need to remember this is the same pilot group that voted in cargo concessions in the name of "capturing flying" so no surprise there are some that come up with "secured money".

This is despite the fact you can have both a large wage increase AND a bonus.

I guess maybe now it is "capture the secured money" moving forward? With concessions to do that???

I'd rather have the larger wage increase than the large wage increase.

@#$! the bonus, pay me more.

So all the Airline groups with superior pay & bonuses are doing it wrong?!

Holy sheet you sound like a dumb shit. Please never negotiate for pilots.

Tabarnac

[Fanblade]

Y'all need to remember this is the same pilot group that voted in cargo concessions in the name of "capturing flying" so no surprise there are some that come up with "secured money".

This is despite the fact you can have both a large wage increase AND a bonus.

I guess maybe now it is "capture the secured money" moving forward? With concessions to do that???

I'd rather have the larger wage increase than the large wage increase.

@#$! the bonus, pay me more.

So all the Airline groups with superior pay & bonuses are doing it wrong?!

Holy sheet you sound like a dumb shit. Please never negotiate for pilots.

Tabarnac

I assume you mean the US when you talk about other pilot groups.

They have it brilliantly right. However they have been leap frogging each other for nearly 2 decades. There are no free lunches for us, nor does it happen over night,

The US is on round 4 of leapfrogging. We haven’t even finished round 1. Transat will finish round 1 and WJ will start round 2 at the end of next year.

No one is going to hand us anything. Everything will be a fight.

Guns outward. Solidarity. Unity.

This battle never ends. Forget about your wounds from the last battle and prepare for the next. We are two years out from contract expiration and about 18 months until negotiations start.

[PeakLeverage]

Until we hit Peak Leverage then cave in and vote yes...no matter what the deal is...because...that is Peak Leverage...

[Fanblade]

Until we hit Peak Leverage then cave in and vote yes...no matter what the deal is...because...that is Peak Leverage...

Yes when our next negotiations take place. When your MEC believes they have extracted everything they can get, have exhausted and considered all options, you will have a deal or a strike. I have been on strike twice. Neither time produced anything but small results compared to the table pre strike. Much like what we saw with the FA’s.

This is a process that will take multiple cycles of leapfrogging. It is very difficult to get too far out in front of other groups within our borders. The strategy is to push as far as you can and then pass the baton. Transat doesn’t even have to leapfrog. Just keep up so they don’t create drag.

If people are going to give up before round 2 even starts? I mean what can I say other than it’s your wallet and QOL you’re impacting.

This is very do able. But it takes time and determination. If you don’t have the determination then maybe stay silent with the negativity.

[altiplano]

Y'all need to remember this is the same pilot group that voted in cargo concessions in the name of "capturing flying" so no surprise there are some that come up with "secured money".

This is despite the fact you can have both a large wage increase AND a bonus.

I guess maybe now it is "capture the secured money" moving forward? With concessions to do that???

I'd rather have the larger wage increase than the large wage increase.

@#$! the bonus, pay me more.

So all the Airline groups with superior pay & bonuses are doing it wrong?!

Holy sheet you sound like a dumb shit. Please never negotiate for pilots.

Tabarnac

You guys are like 13 years olds that can't get past first base with your thinking.

Fixated and blind at the same time.

You are disagreeing with my statement that guaranteed money is better than conditional variable pay. Do you want to get a dollar? Or do you want to maybe get a dollar?

There is a time to get conditional variable pay, but if you can convert it to guaranteed pay that's even better. We needed a higher fixed rate in this cycle, in a future cycle where we aren't able to get 42% due economics, geopolitics, etc, that's when we open the conditional pay again to get the deal done, at a time when the company doesn't think they are going to have to pay it in the next 54 months.

Timing is everything, fixed pay is always better, it's harder to get get all the time though, the company is more willing to give on variable pay and lifestyle items in down cycles when it's harder to bring up fixed pay.

Those airlines are multiple cycles ahead of us... it takes time to unfold and develop. Keep your ignorant insults up your ass.

[AllthatJazz]

Reading this thread it's easy to see why pilots sign dumb ass 10 yrs & 20 yrs deals.

It's amazing how somehow you need to take concessions for gains when the FAs didn't.

Altiplano...you are like regurgitating talking head doll. We get it...you want to give things away. It's sad.

Now I can only imagine the pressure to capitulate with a company made threat on pensions.