Pilot with Cruise-Only Hours - Where to Start?

[justwannafly4life]

I’m an immigrant with Canadian PR and a Canadian ATPL, moving to Canada next year. I’ve racked up over 2,000 jet hours as a cruise pilot with an international airline, but I’ve got zero takeoffs or landings under my belt since I started as an ab-initio cadet. My hands-on flying time is pretty much non-existent, and I’m looking to jumpstart my flying career in Canada.

Any chance of landing an airline job with cruise-only hours, or am I better off starting as a CFI or maybe trying bush flying to build some stick time? I’m open to anything—regionals, cargo, charters. Any operators or flight schools you’d recommend for jobs or CFI training?

Would love to hear from anyone. Thanks in advance!

[Me262]

I’m an immigrant with Canadian PR and a Canadian ATPL, moving to Canada next year. I’ve racked up over 2,000 jet hours as a cruise pilot with an international airline, but I’ve got zero takeoffs or landings under my belt since I started as an ab-initio cadet. My hands-on flying time is pretty much non-existent, and I’m looking to jumpstart my flying career in Canada.

Any chance of landing an airline job with cruise-only hours, or am I better off starting as a CFI or maybe trying bush flying to build some stick time? I’m open to anything—regionals, cargo, charters. Any operators or flight schools you’d recommend for jobs or CFI training?

Would love to hear from anyone. Thanks in advance!

Just apply to AC,WJ,Porter, etc and see what the answers will be. From there you can go for Jazz, Encore, etc if you get PFO'd. If CFI or bush flying isn't something you'd like, keep those as backup plans for worse case scenarios.

Keep in mind there's been a slump in hiring at airlines but this fall it will start to slowly pickup.

[twa22]

Considering you met the qualifications to hold a Canadian ATPL, those hours are actual hours for total time purposes, so like me262 said, just apply to every airline and see what happens since you theoretically meet the qualifications for majority of 705 jobs

[Jean-Pierre]

Go North and get some hands and feet skill from flying a plane. Then apply to Regional airlines.

[justwannafly4life]

Thanks for all the replies!
 
I was eyeing a CFI rating, but man, the price tag and all that ground school feel like overkill.
Thinking I’ll grab a seaplane rating, sounds like a fun way to get up some stick time and confidence. Maybe then jump into bush flying or regionals to get those landings in. Planning to settle in BC first. Any thoughts on that? Any recommendation for float schools?

[digits_]

Thanks for all the replies!
 
I was eyeing a CFI rating, but man, the price tag and all that ground school feel like overkill.
Thinking I’ll grab a seaplane rating, sounds like a fun way to get up some stick time and confidence. Maybe then jump into bush flying or regionals to get those landings in. Planning to settle in BC first. Any thoughts on that? Any recommendation for float schools?

There's a lot of competition for float jobs in BC, especially in the Vancouver area. You might have more luck in Ontario or Manitoba.

[altiplano]

How did you get an ATPL without any actual CA/FO flying?

I can't believe how low the requirements are now that you don't even have to land a plane for TC to license you to be a commander of an airliner.

[twa22]

How did you get an ATPL without any actual CA/FO flying?

I can't believe how low the requirements are now that you don't even have to land a plane for TC to license you to be a commander of an airliner.

Yet you still need 250 PIC time which can be C150 flying day VFR to get an ATPL even if you have over 1000 hours jet turbine time with several takesoffs and landings...BUT, if you have an ATPL issued in another state, seems like that can be converted over to a TC ATPL no problem... strange...

[altiplano]

How did you get an ATPL without any actual CA/FO flying?

I can't believe how low the requirements are now that you don't even have to land a plane for TC to license you to be a commander of an airliner.

Yet you still need 250 PIC time which can be C150 flying day VFR to get an ATPL even if you have over 1000 hours jet turbine time with several takesoffs and landings...BUT, if you have an ATPL issued in another state, seems like that can be converted over to a TC ATPL no problem... strange...

1000 hours jet turbine right seat is squat. Used to only count as 1/2 hours, and you couldn't have it all like that... should still count as 1/2. Everyone should get a command job before they can get an ATPL.

[twa22]

How did you get an ATPL without any actual CA/FO flying?

I can't believe how low the requirements are now that you don't even have to land a plane for TC to license you to be a commander of an airliner.

Yet you still need 250 PIC time which can be C150 flying day VFR to get an ATPL even if you have over 1000 hours jet turbine time with several takesoffs and landings...BUT, if you have an ATPL issued in another state, seems like that can be converted over to a TC ATPL no problem... strange...

1000 hours jet turbine right seat is squat. Used to only count as 1/2 hours, and you couldn't have it all like that... should still count as 1/2. Everyone should get a command job before they can get an ATPL.

ok... that wasn't my point, but i'm sure you know that. I won't argue what should and shouldn't count for an ATPL, I was pointing out the irony of the rules

[Eric Janson]

I’m an immigrant with Canadian PR and a Canadian ATPL, moving to Canada next year. I’ve racked up over 2,000 jet hours as a cruise pilot with an international airline

Why don't you stay at the 'International Airline' and get promoted to FO?

That will give you a full Type Rating and some handling experience.

[StrayPilot]

How did you get an ATPL without any actual CA/FO flying?

I can't believe how low the requirements are now that you don't even have to land a plane for TC to license you to be a commander of an airliner.

Yet you still need 250 PIC time which can be C150 flying day VFR to get an ATPL even if you have over 1000 hours jet turbine time with several takesoffs and landings...BUT, if you have an ATPL issued in another state, seems like that can be converted over to a TC ATPL no problem... strange...

They don't allow direct ATPL conversions from another state unless you already have TC requirements in your logbook. Otherwise they only issue you a CPL irrespective of the license you hold. It's more likely that OP had other flying experience before racking up the 2000 jet cruise hours.

[twa22]

How did you get an ATPL without any actual CA/FO flying?

I can't believe how low the requirements are now that you don't even have to land a plane for TC to license you to be a commander of an airliner.

Yet you still need 250 PIC time which can be C150 flying day VFR to get an ATPL even if you have over 1000 hours jet turbine time with several takesoffs and landings...BUT, if you have an ATPL issued in another state, seems like that can be converted over to a TC ATPL no problem... strange...

They don't allow direct ATPL conversions from another state unless you already have TC requirements in your logbook. Otherwise they only issue you a CPL irrespective of the license you hold. It's more likely that OP had other flying experience before racking up the 2000 jet cruise hours.

That would make more sense, and it confirms what I also heard from someone who had an issue with their foreign ATPL due to the TC reqs... OP must have had the hours pre the airline job then, but, ab-initio cadet programs do exist in the world, where one never really gets any PIC time, except for the PPL stage, and the rest is either right seat flying or in this case, SO/cruise relief... PICUS does exist, but the requirements are different

To the OP, for my curiosity, what is your total PIC time, NOT including PICUS

[justwannafly4life]

I hold a CPL and logged some flight hours before enrolling in the ab-initio program.

Life circumstances changed, I married a Canadian, and we’re planning to start a family in Canada.

Thank you for the feedback! I acknowledge I need to improve certain skills. My plan is to build more flight hours, possibly through CFI work or bush flying, before returning to airline training.

[twa22]

So then you don't have an ATPL...?

[Me262]

I hold a CPL and logged some flight hours before enrolling in the ab-initio program.

Life circumstances changed, I married a Canadian, and we’re planning to start a family in Canada.

Thank you for the feedback! I acknowledge I need to improve certain skills. My plan is to build more flight hours, possibly through CFI work or bush flying, before returning to airline training.

No reason not to apply to AC/WJ/etc if that is where you want to end up in the end and see what happens if you have an actual TC ATPL. Or you can apply for bush flying/whatever if you want to try that but remember seniority is everything.

[Me262]

So then you don't have an ATPL...?

Maybe they got the 250 PIC before enrolling in the ab-initio.

[justwannafly4life]

So then you don't have an ATPL...?

Maybe they got the 250 PIC before enrolling in the ab-initio.

Yes, that’s what I wanted to say.
Thanks for clarifying !

[justwannafly4life]

I hold a CPL and logged some flight hours before enrolling in the ab-initio program.

Life circumstances changed, I married a Canadian, and we’re planning to start a family in Canada.

Thank you for the feedback! I acknowledge I need to improve certain skills. My plan is to build more flight hours, possibly through CFI work or bush flying, before returning to airline training.

No reason not to apply to AC/WJ/etc if that is where you want to end up in the end and see what happens if you have an actual TC ATPL. Or you can apply for bush flying/whatever if you want to try that but remember seniority is everything.

Agree, seniority is everything.
I will definitely give it a go!

[Eric Janson]

I worked for an Airline where they took guys with a bare CPL and trained them as FO on the A320.

Entire training took 2 years - including Groundschool.

There were extra Sim sessions above the normal Type Rating training.

Then 50 sectors of Line Training.

@justwannafly4life - you won't find any of the above at Canadian companies.

I still think my earlier suggestion is your best option as your "International Airline' has most likely modified its training program for people like yourself.

[Launchpad1]

"International Airline'

I wonder how life is in Hong Kong these days.

[yowflyer23]

I decided to go overseas to probably the same international airline. On one hand, it was a great decision because hiring has come to a stop at this airline (at least for SO's) and I lucklily squeezed my way in in before that happened. Beats being stuck at a regional while the industry slows down; relying on per diems to make ends meet. However, it was also a terrible strategic decision because I'm 300 hours short of the 1500 TT I needed for my Canadian ATPL, so now it will be a bit more challenging to return home if I need/want to. I meet all of the other requirements though including 250 pic, night cross country, etc.

I'm curious if anybody can substantiate what TC told me while I wait weeks for an answer. I was wondering if I could count cruise relief time as total time for the purposes of my Canadian ATPL application. The person who got back to me at TC said no, but I cannot find any reference about this. The relevant standard (421.34) says

"An applicant shall have [...] a minimum of 1500 hours total flight time of which a minimum of 900 hours shall have been completed in aeroplanes."

My understanding is that if I were an RP at Air Canada, I would be logging my time under the co-pilot column which counts towards total time. Am I mistaken? If the OP of this post got his ATPL with just cruise relief time, then surely the lady from TC was misinformed?

Also from TC: https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/licens ... e-criteria

YES a pilot who is qualified on type, and who is acting as first officer, can legally log co-pilot flight time and credit it towards an ATPL.

IF

The aircraft is required to be operated with a co-pilot, according to CARs Part VI or VII and as stated in the Private Operators Certificate or Air Operator's Certificate.

OR

2. The minimum flight crew is 2 pilots, according to the aircraft Type Certificate. Refer to CAR 421.40 Appendix A Type Designators for guidance material.

The 747 that I fly requires two crew according to the type certificate...

My hope is that these hours do count so that after I reach 1500 TT, I can go home, do a flight test in a Seneca or Seminole somewhere cheap and apply for my Canadian ATPL for a bit of job security... If not, I guess I still have the iatra, but this is obviously far less useful.

[BTD]

I decided to go overseas to probably the same international airline. On one hand, it was a great decision because hiring has come to a stop at this airline (at least for SO's) and I lucklily squeezed my way in in before that happened. Beats being stuck at a regional while the industry slows down; relying on per diems to make ends meet. However, it was also a terrible strategic decision because I'm 300 hours short of the 1500 TT I needed for my Canadian ATPL, so now it will be a bit more challenging to return home if I need/want to. I meet all of the other requirements though including 250 pic, night cross country, etc.

I'm curious if anybody can substantiate what TC told me while I wait weeks for an answer. I was wondering if I could count cruise relief time as total time for the purposes of my Canadian ATPL application. The person who got back to me at TC said no, but I cannot find any reference about this. The relevant standard (421.34) says

"An applicant shall have [...] a minimum of 1500 hours total flight time of which a minimum of 900 hours shall have been completed in aeroplanes."

My understanding is that if I were an RP at Air Canada, I would be logging my time under the co-pilot column which counts towards total time. Am I mistaken? If the OP of this post got his ATPL with just cruise relief time, then surely the lady from TC was misinformed?

Also from TC: https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/licens ... e-criteria

YES a pilot who is qualified on type, and who is acting as first officer, can legally log co-pilot flight time and credit it towards an ATPL.

IF

The aircraft is required to be operated with a co-pilot, according to CARs Part VI or VII and as stated in the Private Operators Certificate or Air Operator's Certificate.

OR

2. The minimum flight crew is 2 pilots, according to the aircraft Type Certificate. Refer to CAR 421.40 Appendix A Type Designators for guidance material.

The 747 that I fly requires two crew according to the type certificate...

My hope is that these hours do count so that after I reach 1500 TT, I can go home, do a flight test in a Seneca or Seminole somewhere cheap and apply for my Canadian ATPL for a bit of job security... If not, I guess I still have the iatra, but this is obviously far less useful.

I’m sure there is an exception somewhere in the past, but to be hired by AC you require an ATPL. So nobody is applying for a licence with RP hours, they already have it. Once you have all your licences the only requirement is to keep a personal log. So you can put it in whatever column you like.

[yowflyer23]

I’m sure there is an exception somewhere in the past, but to be hired by AC you require an ATPL. So nobody is applying for a licence with RP hours, they already have it. Once you have all your licences the only requirement is to keep a personal log. So you can put it in whatever column you like.

Fair. What about those folks who were Second Officers on Cargojet's 727s before they retired those?

[BTD]

I’m sure there is an exception somewhere in the past, but to be hired by AC you require an ATPL. So nobody is applying for a licence with RP hours, they already have it. Once you have all your licences the only requirement is to keep a personal log. So you can put it in whatever column you like.

Fair. What about those folks who were Second Officers on Cargojet's 727s before they retired those?

Here is a thread from 2007. Some of the factors have changed. There is no legal requirement to have an ATPL to be FO on a transport category aircraft, only an IATRA. So at the time, the FE/SO could sit sideways until their seniority allowed them to hold right seat. Then go there and log their time at 50% (the rules on that have changed). Then apply for the ATPL.

http://avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?p=265519