Flight training failures

[Throwaway703]

Good morning,

I'm currently employed at a 703 operation as a captain. I have an opportunity to interview with a 705 operator however my past performance has me worried. I haven't had an issue since leaving the flight training environment, however I've failed my CPL, IR, and Class 4 ride. CPL failure was due to an anxiety induced brain fart during the ground portion - we never got in the air. IR I misunderstood the comm failure procedures and in that moment made an error to descend into VFR conditions when I should have maintained altitude. Class 4 failure was due to not making the field in a forced approach.

I've owned my failures and learned from them, and it's lead me to flying as a captain in 703. My current employer never asked about my history however this new place is. In your opinion will my past prevent me from being considered at this 705?

[Bede]

Good morning,

I'm currently employed at a 703 operation as a captain. I have an opportunity to interview with a 705 operator however my past performance has me worried. I haven't had an issue since leaving the flight training environment, however I've failed my CPL, IR, and Class 4 ride. CPL failure was due to an anxiety induced brain fart during the ground portion - we never got in the air. IR I misunderstood the comm failure procedures and in that moment made an error to descend into VFR conditions when I should have maintained altitude. Class 4 failure was due to not making the field in a forced approach.

I've owned my failures and learned from them, and it's lead me to flying as a captain in 703. My current employer never asked about my history however this new place is. In your opinion will my past prevent me from being considered at this 705?

I'm going to give you some bad news: yes it will affect your interview. Anyone can fail any ride on any given day, but to fail three suggests that you struggle(d) with flying. I assume that the only rides you passed were the PPL and multi? Had you not had any success since, I would have told you that this job isn't for you and you should do something you're good at.

BUT, on the plus side, it appears that you've improved. How many PPC's have you done? Any extra training required to get to the PPC?

Here's how I would frame it: "Learning to fly was difficult for me. I've had to put in a lot of effort to get this far. However, since my initial training I've required no extra training and passed all my rides."

[digits_]

Good morning,

I'm currently employed at a 703 operation as a captain. I have an opportunity to interview with a 705 operator however my past performance has me worried. I haven't had an issue since leaving the flight training environment, however I've failed my CPL, IR, and Class 4 ride. CPL failure was due to an anxiety induced brain fart during the ground portion - we never got in the air. IR I misunderstood the comm failure procedures and in that moment made an error to descend into VFR conditions when I should have maintained altitude. Class 4 failure was due to not making the field in a forced approach.

I've owned my failures and learned from them, and it's lead me to flying as a captain in 703. My current employer never asked about my history however this new place is. In your opinion will my past prevent me from being considered at this 705?

How long have you been flying at your 703?

I don't think you lose anything by attempting the 705 interview. It might be a problem, it might not be.

[Hurock89]

I am amazed that some people worry about such things while already employed... I don't have a single failure, got all my ratings, plenty of hours, but still can't get an operator to look at my resume even for a PIW position...

IMO, be an adult, own it: "Yep, I failed, but I persevered, learned from it and here I am today, eager to continue on the same path."

[Big Pistons Forever]

Good morning,

I'm currently employed at a 703 operation as a captain. I have an opportunity to interview with a 705 operator however my past performance has me worried. I haven't had an issue since leaving the flight training environment, however I've failed my CPL, IR, and Class 4 ride. CPL failure was due to an anxiety induced brain fart during the ground portion - we never got in the air. IR I misunderstood the comm failure procedures and in that moment made an error to descend into VFR conditions when I should have maintained altitude. Class 4 failure was due to not making the field in a forced approach.

I've owned my failures and learned from them, and it's lead me to flying as a captain in 703. My current employer never asked about my history however this new place is. In your opinion will my past prevent me from being considered at this 705?

I'm going to give you some bad news: yes it will affect your interview. Anyone can fail any ride on any given day, but to fail three suggests that you struggle(d) with flying. I assume that the only rides you passed were the PPL and multi? Had you not had any success since, I would have told you that this job isn't for you and you should do something you're good at.

BUT, on the plus side, it appears that you've improved. How many PPC's have you done? Any extra training required to get to the PPC?

Here's how I would frame it: "Learning to fly was difficult for me. I've had to put in a lot of effort to get this far. However, since my initial training I've required no extra training and passed all my rides."

In addition to Bede's excellent advice, What you failed is less important than why you failed. I would bet that there was a common underlying cause (nerves ?) to your failure. I would want to be able to articulate what you did to overcome the issue and how that enabled success at your current position.

[Throwaway703]

Good morning,

I'm currently employed at a 703 operation as a captain. I have an opportunity to interview with a 705 operator however my past performance has me worried. I haven't had an issue since leaving the flight training environment, however I've failed my CPL, IR, and Class 4 ride. CPL failure was due to an anxiety induced brain fart during the ground portion - we never got in the air. IR I misunderstood the comm failure procedures and in that moment made an error to descend into VFR conditions when I should have maintained altitude. Class 4 failure was due to not making the field in a forced approach.

I've owned my failures and learned from them, and it's lead me to flying as a captain in 703. My current employer never asked about my history however this new place is. In your opinion will my past prevent me from being considered at this 705?

I'm going to give you some bad news: yes it will affect your interview. Anyone can fail any ride on any given day, but to fail three suggests that you struggle(d) with flying. I assume that the only rides you passed were the PPL and multi? Had you not had any success since, I would have told you that this job isn't for you and you should do something you're good at.

BUT, on the plus side, it appears that you've improved. How many PPC's have you done? Any extra training required to get to the PPC?

Here's how I would frame it: "Learning to fly was difficult for me. I've had to put in a lot of effort to get this far. However, since my initial training I've required no extra training and passed all my rides."

In addition to Bede's excellent advice, What you failed is less important than why you failed. I would bet that there was a common underlying cause (nerves ?) to your failure. I would want to be able to articulate what you did to overcome the issue and how that enabled success at your current position.

Nerves were absolutely huge part of it, if not all of it. Thank you for your input, I'll be sure to mention how I improved from my past.

[Throwaway703]

Good morning,

I'm currently employed at a 703 operation as a captain. I have an opportunity to interview with a 705 operator however my past performance has me worried. I haven't had an issue since leaving the flight training environment, however I've failed my CPL, IR, and Class 4 ride. CPL failure was due to an anxiety induced brain fart during the ground portion - we never got in the air. IR I misunderstood the comm failure procedures and in that moment made an error to descend into VFR conditions when I should have maintained altitude. Class 4 failure was due to not making the field in a forced approach.

I've owned my failures and learned from them, and it's lead me to flying as a captain in 703. My current employer never asked about my history however this new place is. In your opinion will my past prevent me from being considered at this 705?

How long have you been flying at your 703?

I don't think you lose anything by attempting the 705 interview. It might be a problem, it might not be.

About two years

[Throwaway703]

Good morning,

I'm currently employed at a 703 operation as a captain. I have an opportunity to interview with a 705 operator however my past performance has me worried. I haven't had an issue since leaving the flight training environment, however I've failed my CPL, IR, and Class 4 ride. CPL failure was due to an anxiety induced brain fart during the ground portion - we never got in the air. IR I misunderstood the comm failure procedures and in that moment made an error to descend into VFR conditions when I should have maintained altitude. Class 4 failure was due to not making the field in a forced approach.

I've owned my failures and learned from them, and it's lead me to flying as a captain in 703. My current employer never asked about my history however this new place is. In your opinion will my past prevent me from being considered at this 705?

I'm going to give you some bad news: yes it will affect your interview. Anyone can fail any ride on any given day, but to fail three suggests that you struggle(d) with flying. I assume that the only rides you passed were the PPL and multi? Had you not had any success since, I would have told you that this job isn't for you and you should do something you're good at.

BUT, on the plus side, it appears that you've improved. How many PPC's have you done? Any extra training required to get to the PPC?

Here's how I would frame it: "Learning to fly was difficult for me. I've had to put in a lot of effort to get this far. However, since my initial training I've required no extra training and passed all my rides."

Thanks for the advice I'll mention something to that effect. I have passed two PPCs and I haven't required any extra training for them.

[Bede]

Thanks for the advice I'll mention something to that effect. I have passed two PPCs and I haven't required any extra training for them.

Excellent. All the best.

[airway]

One thing I hope interviewers keep in mind is that the student may have had a relatively new instructor. Deciding if a student is ready for the flight test is tricky and somewhat subjective. Going through the process of recommending a few students for a specific flight test helps a lot with the decision making. I don't know what the circumstances were in this case, and I'm not blaming his instructors, but If the OP had had one or two extra flights before each flight test, that might have been the difference between 3 fails and a clean record.




.

[Bede]

One thing I hope interviewers keep in mind is that the student may have had a relatively new instructor. Deciding if a student is ready for the flight test is tricky and somewhat subjective.

Isn't that why schools have senior instructors do supervisory flights?

[CensoredLF]

> Isn't that why schools have senior instructors do supervisory flights?

But what if the assessment is rushed, because the senior instructor, second in command, Class 1, has "more important" things to do?
Example: Engine failure test from 1500' instead of the regulation 3000'
I was then failed because I used full flaps in a slip in a 172. The maneuver is 100% legal but it is placarded WARNING because of potential buffeting.
I had flown the maneuver before with my training instructor AND I made the field. Not easily I will agree, but still ...

Yet I failed, only 2 potential reasons I see, one is white and liquid, and the other is something that the liability cannot be legally contracted away.

YMMV
CLF

[Red_Comet]

Seems like Bede has only dealt with professional and competent examiners. I've sadly heard buddies who had the misfortune of dealing with the many other types. Examiners showing up sick as dogs, not wanting to be there, being in a shitty mood, not liking the candidate, being tired/hungry/angry, etc. Examiners are people, and I've never met a wider variety of people than in aviation. Hang around an FTU long enough and you'll hear some crazy stories about failed flight tests.

There's a reason TC doesn't have a max fail limit on flight tests. The reality is, it's a performance and it's extremely subjective because it is judged by a human. It's not an objective test like the written exams. All that said, for most students, if the examiner is a professional the flight test should be pretty routine. But all it takes is one thing to go wrong for a failed ride.

On the subject of commercial pilot competency, I've heard quite a few stories of things like past check rides, minor pilot error, or any number of other factors being used against pilots in 703/704/705 ops. Whatever happened to accountability, honesty and no-blame? From what I've heard, it seems like it's all hot air. You screw up, you're out on your ass. I get that the stakes are high, but I'm hearing of minor mistakes (no harm to aircraft or persons) being punished by termination and a ruined reputation.

Pretty thankless job when a minor mistake can lead to the end of a career that took decades to build.

[Eric Janson]

Good morning,

I'm currently employed at a 703 operation as a captain. I have an opportunity to interview with a 705 operator however my past performance has me worried. I haven't had an issue since leaving the flight training environment, however I've failed my CPL, IR, and Class 4 ride. CPL failure was due to an anxiety induced brain fart during the ground portion - we never got in the air. IR I misunderstood the comm failure procedures and in that moment made an error to descend into VFR conditions when I should have maintained altitude. Class 4 failure was due to not making the field in a forced approach.

I've owned my failures and learned from them, and it's lead me to flying as a captain in 703. My current employer never asked about my history however this new place is. In your opinion will my past prevent me from being considered at this 705?

I've never been asked about my initial flight training. Nobody cares - jmho.

It's always been time on Type and PIC experience. Sometimes relevant experience (Flown to India? Australia?).

I've sometimes had to show copies of my last checks - depends on the airline.

What sort of questions are you being asked?

[Throwaway703]

Hi, thanks for the feedback. I haven't been asked any questions yet however they did ask for me records to be uploaded. Either it's to ensure I have the required ratings or they're looking for red flags (hopefully the former).

[Canoehead]

I've never been asked about my initial flight training. Nobody cares - jmho.

It's always been time on Type and PIC experience. Sometimes relevant experience (Flown to India? Australia?).

I've sometimes had to show copies of my last checks - depends on the airline.

What sort of questions are you being asked?

It's a different situation here where the applicant is "inexperienced" overall. He will be asked if he's ever had any training or checking failures, and/or if he's required additional training. Welcome to recruitment post 2010-ish.

Bede's original advice is great. Don't try to cover it up - admit to it. Try to cover it up/downplay/blame others, and that shows through like a neon sign. What they want to hear is how you managed it all and got to be where you are (703 Captain). If successful here, you will be observed in a sim-eval by training/check pilots who will look for certain things in particular. Interview notes may be passed along to the evaluators to especially be cognizant of particular items.

Good luck.

[Throwaway703]

Well, for anyone that is curious it absolutely can affect your career prospects. Despite having a humble attitude and positive outlook I wasn't successful in the interview process at two 705 operators. I've owned my training failures as I've stated in my previous posts, and I've come to accept that after a couple interviews I am very fortunate to even have a 703 job. My end goal was to fly for a 705 however I am beginning to doubt if that will be a reality for me.

[digits_]

Well, for anyone that is curious it absolutely can affect your career prospects. Despite having a humble attitude and positive outlook I wasn't successful in the interview process at two 705 operators. I've owned my training failures as I've stated in my previous posts, and I've come to accept that after a couple interviews I am very fortunate to even have a 703 job. My end goal was to fly for a 705 however I am beginning to doubt if that will be a reality for me.

Give it a few years. The longer it has been, and the more experience you have, the less important it will be.

[Bede]

Sorry to hear that. I think it will turn out ok for you. Might just need a bit more time. Seems like you have the right attitude.