Recall of MEC Chair & Vice Chair

[737Drver]

US ALPA got its gains from the luxury of pattern bargaining, backed by a clear pilot supply crunch... and they patterned off real legacy carriers, not low-cost start-ups or brand-new contracts.

Air Canada pilots trying to pattern bargain off WestJet’s second contract or a financially shaky Air Transat? That isn’t strategy, it’s wishful thinking.

When you’re the lone Canadian legacy carrier with the hammer of a strike, relying on weak comparators isn’t leverage...it’s a dangerous fantasy dressed up as strategy.

[Fanblade]

Fair enough. Thank you for the intelligent response. I agree with you on this for the most part. However, there are some big issues with this strategy:

We have a much smaller market and very limited competition in this country (some would even call it corporate collusion). If you don't think companies are wise to this "leapfrogging," you are kidding yourself. US carriers were able to make large gains because there are so many of them and they are so competitive. AC has the luxury of really only having one serious competitor, who for the most part is happy to stay in their own turf. We will not see significant gains through this strategy without the "stick." Strikes are, and always have been, the way to make labour gains.

ALPA needs to, for lack of a better term, "nut up" and start acting like a serious union that will use a strike as it's primary driver for wawcon improvement. These other games are just that, games, and the company would love for us to keep playing them, because that just means more of "we'll get 'em next time." This is a very long game they are playing, much longer than even the 30-35 year careers the youngest of us will have. Every time we back down we lose a significant portion of time. And the company gains more confidence in its ability to keep us down. I believe ALPA is failing badly on this front and it's very frustrating to watch years of my career go by while having to live with this substandard wawcon.

I hear what you are saying about the difference in the amount of carriers south of the border versus Canada. The one thing we have in our favour is the pace of the Canadian negotiation process. In the US it is not uncommon to go 2-3 years past the expiry of an old contract. They don’t have the ability to start, what is basically a 90 day countdown.

When I said competing with other groups. I meant competing to out perform the other pilot groups contract. Whether the airlines actually compete with each other is irrelevant.

I feel your frustration over a substandard contract that is not going away as fast as you want. I will have spent two years on flat salary and three years on a quality contract when I retire with 30 YOS. I don’t want that for anyone. I spent a decade or more of my life dealing with a union who refused to even try to address the issue.

However there is no magic wand I can wave to fix it all at once.

[Fanblade]

US ALPA got its gains from the luxury of pattern bargaining, backed by a clear pilot supply crunch... and they patterned off real legacy carriers, not low-cost start-ups or brand-new contracts.

Air Canada pilots trying to pattern bargain off WestJet’s second contract or a financially shaky Air Transat? That isn’t strategy, it’s wishful thinking.

When you’re the lone Canadian legacy carrier with the hammer of a strike, relying on weak comparators isn’t leverage...it’s a dangerous fantasy dressed up as strategy.

The three big airlines in the US never experienced a supply crunch. They had plenty of applicants. The pilot shortage was felt at carriers below them. The supply shortage drove pay increases from the bottom. Not the top. The pay increases at the top were purely competitive pattern bargaining. Further the pay increase at ALPA carriers in the US started well before the word shortage was even mentioned.

The US carriers pattern bargained off of everyone, including tier 2 carriers. It is true that the legacy carriers pulled most of the weight when setting a new high water mark. Actually all the weight setting the next high water mark in the last cycle. The tier 2 carriers job was to keep up. Sometimes it was only at the top end of the scale where they kept up. The pilot shortage no doubt helped tier 2 carriers to keep up. When you start plotting pay scales you can see the pattern. It jumps off the page.

I think you will find WestJet pilots would find offence with your comment. They are fully capable of a leapfrog. I think your memory is a little short. Westjet did the first leap when they surpassed us by 20%.

That should have been us. If you don’t think they are competitive. Just watch.

[altiplano]

Southwest at times has been the highest payed pilot group. The original LCC and paying better than Legacy airlines.

I fully expect WJ to pass AC pilots next round.

[Fanblade]

When you’re the lone Canadian legacy carrier with the hammer of a strike

Are you sure that hammer is reliable? From my experience it has been very hit and miss. I’m not saying don’t use it. I question the logic of depending on something that has been repeatedly shown to be unreliable.

Particularly when other groups have demonstrated more reliable ways to success.

[flyingcanuck]

Southwest at times has been the highest payed pilot group. The original LCC and paying better than Legacy airlines.

I fully expect WJ to pass AC pilots next round.

With those growth plans theyll have to offer something

[Launchpad1]

I question the logic of depending on something that has been repeatedly shown to be unreliable.

Out of curiosity do you think it's the strike that's proven unreliable or the government stepping in and stopping the strike? If the government didn't interfere like that the strike would probably be quite effective I would guess.

[cdnavater]

I question the logic of depending on something that has been repeatedly shown to be unreliable.

Out of curiosity do you think it's the strike that's proven unreliable or the government stepping in and stopping the strike? If the government didn't interfere like that the strike would probably be quite effective I would guess.

Of course a strike without government intervention would be effective, the point is the company knows the government WILL intervene so they don’t negotiate in good faith.

[Man_in_the_sky]

I question the logic of depending on something that has been repeatedly shown to be unreliable.

Out of curiosity do you think it's the strike that's proven unreliable or the government stepping in and stopping the strike? If the government didn't interfere like that the strike would probably be quite effective I would guess.

Of course a strike without government intervention would be effective, the point is the company knows the government WILL intervene so they don’t negotiate in good faith.

Hopefully that changes in the future.

[Fanblade]

I question the logic of depending on something that has been repeatedly shown to be unreliable.

Out of curiosity do you think it's the strike that's proven unreliable or the government stepping in and stopping the strike? If the government didn't interfere like that the strike would probably be quite effective I would guess.

It's the government that makes the right to strike unreliable. The sledgehammer isn’t the problem. It’s the government removing it from your hands in the backswing.

“Lawmakers will be lawmakers”. Quote from our former Vice Chair.

Like I said above, most employers don’t lose money until work has stopped. Which means the only lever most workers have is strike. Airlines are unique. They rely on advanced bookings. Which means we have a lever that can be exploited before a strike starts. ALPA has proven itself successful at taking advantage of this secondary lever.

It’s not as powerful and swift as the sledgehammer. But it will get the job done over time.

I am not saying don’t ever strike. I’m saying use it with prudence and never place complete reliance on it. Believing strike is infallible is failing to recognize that lawmakers will be lawmakers. It is a situational awareness issue.

[CGFCK]

Air Canada pilots have to pattern bargain off ULCC Flair lol

No wonder the results are so shitty.

I'm sure WJ will beat them too because how could they not LMAO.

[Fanblade]

Air Canada pilots have to pattern bargain off ULCC Flair lol

No wonder the results are so shitty.

I'm sure WJ will beat them too because how could they not LMAO.

Air Canada pilots? No.

All Canadian professional pilots have to pattern bargain off each other. There is no one group that can break away on their own. Canadian labor law boxes everyone into Canadian comparators if you end up in arbitration. This makes it exceedingly difficult for any one group to individually have a break out. Being the only legacy carrier means we have no choice. They either keep up with us or AC will use them to keep us down. Like it or not this is a competitive team sport between pilot groups.

We want WJ to blow our contract out of the water. Then our job is to blow theirs out of the water. Yes Flair needs to keep reasonably close so as not to cause drag on everyone else. Porter same. Transat same. They don’t have to do the heaviest lifting but they have to keep up.

This is not a specific Air Canada pilot strategy. It’s an ALPA carrier strategy. Your caustic remarks at the strategy are actually directed at all Canadian ALPA carriers and the ALPA carriers south of the border with gold standard contracts.

What are the chances you just directed those remarks at your own group? Probable? And you probably didn’t even realize it.

Go have a conversation with your SPSC.

[PeakLeverage]

Air Canada pilots have to pattern bargain off ULCC Flair lol

No wonder the results are so shitty.

I'm sure WJ will beat them too because how could they not LMAO.

Air Canada pilots? No.

All Canadian professional pilots have to pattern bargain off each other. There is no one group that can break away on their own. Canadian labor law boxes everyone into Canadian comparators if you end up in arbitration. This makes it exceedingly difficult for any one group to individually have a break out. Being the only legacy carrier means we have no choice. They either keep up with us or AC will use them to keep us down. Like it or not this is a competitive team sport between pilot groups.

We want WJ to blow our contract out of the water. Then our job is to blow theirs out of the water. Yes Flair needs to keep reasonably close so as not to cause drag on everyone else. Porter same. Transat same. They don’t have to do the heaviest lifting but they have to keep up.

This is not a specific Air Canada pilot strategy. It’s an ALPA carrier strategy. Your caustic remarks at the strategy are actually directed at all Canadian ALPA carriers and the ALPA carriers south of the border with gold standard contracts.

What are the chances you just directed those remarks at your own group? Probable? And you probably didn’t even realize it.

Go have a conversation with your SPSC.

Ask the "Let's Fucking Get'em" guy?

[Fanblade]

Go have a conversation with your SPSC.

Ask the "Let's Fucking Get'em" guy?

lol. I think a lot of fatigue and burnout went into that comment. There were no displacements and many people were running on empty. It didn’t help that someone in management (who could that have been) was also targeting your leadership with upgrades and transition courses. Burn out is actually an understatement. Thankfully proper displacement is secured in the current contract so that your leadership doesn’t have to go through that again.

The personal toll was high. Did you notice how exhausted our chair and vise chair were at the road shows? I did.

Let’s put it this way. My mouth could have been even worse. The older I get the less patience I have for BS. It’s why I’m not a politician.

But no he is not your SPSC chair. Look your chair up.

[noreasterYHZ]

Go have a conversation with your SPSC.

Ask the "Let's Fucking Get'em" guy?

When I saw this live in YYZ I could see the face from the main ALPA guy. We looked liked fools. That MEC group was an embarrassment.

Then the leadership flopped.

Then they got those displacements so they can enjoy their 95 hours of pay. Awesome.

At least they took care of themselves!

[Fanblade]

Then they got those displacements so they can enjoy their 95 hours of pay. Awesome.

At least they took care of themselves!

At the very least you could keep the retoric correct.

A10.09.01. 90 hours.

And it is on the low side for ALPA.

The average ALPA duty release at other properties is closer to 95 hours. ACA is not. We are 90 and it limited to 7 positions.

Quite frankly, if you do the job properly it's not enough, particularly when things get busy during negotiations. Then you’re doing non stop days for weeks, sometimes, months at a time. Negotiations pop up mid cycle often. In many ways they never stop.

Do the math. Would you be willing to put in 12-15 hour days, 7 days a week, just for that increase in pay? The leadership isn't doing this stuff for the money. The membership is throwing substandard compensation at them for the work load.

If people were in just for the money. VO is more lucrative and way less stressful.

If someone wanted one of those positions for the money, quite frankly they aren’t smart enough for the job.

[CGFCK]

Then they got those displacements so they can enjoy their 95 hours of pay. Awesome.

At least they took care of themselves!

At the very least you could keep the retoric correct.

A10.09.01. 90 hours.

And it is on the low side for ALPA.

The average ALPA duty release at other properties is closer to 95 hours. ACA is not. We are 90 and it limited to 7 positions.

Quite frankly, if you do the job properly it's not enough, particularly when things get busy during negotiations. Then you’re doing non stop days for weeks, sometimes, months at a time. Negotiations pop up mid cycle often. In many ways they never stop.

Do the math. Would you be willing to put in 12-15 hour days, 7 days a week, just for that increase in pay? The leadership isn't doing this stuff for the money. The membership is throwing substandard compensation at them for the work load.

If people were in just for the money. VO is more lucrative and way less stressful.

If someone wanted one of those positions for the money, quite frankly they aren’t smart enough for the job.

...so when you're not in negots you get 95 hrs to do nothing? Amazing

[noreasterYHZ]

So let me get this straight when it’s rep pay, the comparator is ALPA across North America. But when it’s the rest of the contract, suddenly it’s “Canadian standards.” Shouldn’t reps then pattern bargain off the lowest-paid reps too? By the way, isn’t starting pay at AC now roughly what it is at Flair?

Inspiring stuff

[Jean-Pierre]

Speaking of guaranteed pay how many are still waiting for their 900hr guarantee cheque due months ago? The union seems unwilling to do anything about the company simply not paying us our contracted salary either.

Didn’t I just read that is being paid out as a separate check next month? I agree though the delay isn’t acceptable.

No timeline has been given for when we will receive our pay.

[Bede]

...so when you're not in negots you get 95 hrs to do nothing? Amazing

I don't think you understand how negots works- you're always doing something: research, LOUs, MOA's ( most don't come to a deal), liasing with other committees such as grievance who often need a negotiator.

[thepoors]

When I said competing with other groups. I meant competing to out perform the other pilot groups contract. Whether the airlines actually compete with each other is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant. It creates a competitive environment that affects many aspects beyond labour. It doesn't allow management to get comfortable and complacent because there is always another company ready to steal your lunch, if you will. Competition creates better outcomes for everyone, from customers to employees. It's something that's severely lacking as a whole in Canada and allows corporations to exploit us. Instead we have a bunch of shitty duopolies that collude (both with each other and the government) to help their bottom line without any threat to actually provide good service or quality products (see Bell/Rogers, Loblaws/Sobeys, AC/WJ, the list goes on and on).

[thepoors]

So let me get this straight when it’s rep pay, the comparator is ALPA across North America. But when it’s the rest of the contract, suddenly it’s “Canadian standards.” Shouldn’t reps then pattern bargain off the lowest-paid reps too? By the way, isn’t starting pay at AC now roughly what it is at Flair?

Inspiring stuff

Yes, you see: Flair (a perpetually broke, debt dodging, tax evading ULCC) had to leapfrog AC (legacy flag carrier, "Skytrax best airline in NA"), before ALPA could justify a contract with improved wawcon. Without reference to the lowest denominator how could we possibly ask for anything? ...let alone strike

[Freshredmeat]

So let me get this straight when it’s rep pay, the comparator is ALPA across North America. But when it’s the rest of the contract, suddenly it’s “Canadian standards.” Shouldn’t reps then pattern bargain off the lowest-paid reps too? By the way, isn’t starting pay at AC now roughly what it is at Flair?

Inspiring stuff

Yes, you see: Flair (a perpetually broke, debt dodging, tax evading ULCC) had to leapfrog AC (legacy flag carrier, "Skytrax best airline in NA"), before ALPA could justify a contract with improved wawcon. Without reference to the lowest denominator how could we possibly ask for anything? ...let alone strike

Honestly, if the plan is to rely on pattern bargaining off ULCCs while charging members thousands a year in dues, just to bankroll fancy dinners for reps who fold like a cheap suit, what are we even doing? Why not cut the dues and hire a few lawyers? At least then we’d skip the arrogant “know-it-alls” who talk big but deliver a third-world-class contract with zero engagement and no enforcement.

[daedalusx]

Can we not all convert to Mormonism or JW and donate our unions dues to a charity ? Asking for a friend.

[Fanblade]

Assuming people actually read from page 8 onward.

We are getting some very interesting responses from a few people. And I realize it is only a few. The amount of lurkers has been pretty large.

However to those who insist on mocking the ALPA strategy. Even though it has produced great results in the US. Even though it has produced the best one time increase that I have ever seen in Canadian history so far.

You want a gold standard contract like the US, but you mock how it was achieved?

There are only a few explanations I can come up with for this.

1) You haven’t been reading.

2) You have decided you know better than almost two decades of ALPA SPSC experience.

3) I won’t go there because I believe pilots are intelligent and with good accurate information will make good decisions.

So which is it? 1 or 2