Recall of MEC Chair & Vice Chair

[thepoors]

The company is getting ready, yeah they're the big bad company. Haven't you figured that out yet? And they're already digging in against us, they don't want us to get anything next time. So grow up and start acting like you get the plot.

I think I get the plot a lot better than you. That's why I don't understand why ALPA is so complacent and you're making so many excuses for them. The company has been, and will continue to be, 5 steps ahead. If they don't get their shit together and start taking a hard-line stance on this stuff the company will steamroll us.

Stop defaming the guys working on your behalf that actually are producing results. Look at the recent off cycle A11 gains, the willingness to grieve overreach by the company.

Dude don't make me laugh. A11 gains? You mean 8% and no other improvements nearly a year later, after they rug pulled them in negots? Plus it was a prime example of them using their favourite line:

If the union's best is "what the company was willing to accept," then what's the point?

2027 negots:
ALPA - what are you willing to accept?
AC management - here's another dogpile contract demonstrating how much we "value" our employees.
ALPA - thank you sir, with some fear mongering we should be able to whip 51% yes.
AC management - if it's looking tight, get your MEC chair to threaten to quit.
End negots.

[altiplano]

The company is getting ready, yeah they're the big bad company. Haven't you figured that out yet? And they're already digging in against us, they don't want us to get anything next time. So grow up and start acting like you get the plot.

I think I get the plot a lot better than you. That's why I don't understand why ALPA is so complacent and you're making so many excuses for them. The company has been, and will continue to be, 5 steps ahead. If they don't get their shit together and start taking a hard-line stance on this stuff the company will steamroll us.

Stop defaming the guys working on your behalf that actually are producing results. Look at the recent off cycle A11 gains, the willingness to grieve overreach by the company.

Dude don't make me laugh. A11 gains? You mean 8% and no other improvements nearly a year later, after they rug pulled them in negots? Plus it was a prime example of them using their favourite line:

If the union's best is "what the company was willing to accept," then what's the point?

2027 negots:
ALPA - what are you willing to accept?
AC management - here's another dogpile contract demonstrating how much we "value" our employees.
ALPA - thank you sir, with some fear mongering we should be able to whip 51% yes.
AC management - if it's looking tight, get your MEC chair to threaten to quit.
End negots.

You don't have the plot. You just shit on everyone else and don't offer anything. Hard line stance? On what?

They've brought 100+ items to grievance? What else do you expect? Wildcat? I mean, I'm not against that per se, but not for this.

I see a group trying to get it's shit together and people like you working against it. Working against yourself.

8% pay increase for nothing is a joke to you? What other improvements do expect for A11 pilots? They mostly pick their schedule, preselect flying, take whatever vacation they want, get higher pay guarantees while most of us are on 70 hour DBMs, a lot of those guys are way ahead on pay/lifestyle vs. a senior line pilot. Where would more improvement come from?

2027? I don't think it will go like that, but it may go down in flames if people like you can't move forward, stop bitching, and start lifting each other. I want to get a f- of a lot more on pay, lifestyle, reserve, pension, and more. Get with it.

Support your Association = Support your Brothers = Support Yourself

If we don't do that, without solidarity, were fucked. Company is going to laugh at us. Or I'd love to here how you think it should go... how you're doing to get what you think we deserve.

[thepoors]

2027? I don't think it will go like that, but it may go down in flames if people like you can't move forward, stop bitching, and start lifting each other.
Support your Association = Support your Brothers = Support Yourself

Meanwhile, you just dumped all over training pilots. If you think they're so ahead on pay/lifestyle, I'll give you the classic response: why don't you join the training department?

Once again you don't get it. A11 pilots do a bunch of unpaid work, just one example: the entire ATO process is completely unpaid. I'm sure they have a list of issues that need improvement, like pretty much every other line in this contract. But for you what they have is good enough. So what else do you think we should just settle on? How about all the contract articles that the company is calling vendor dependent right now? What is ALPA doing about that?

All the rah rah solidarity talk is great, but where did that get us last year? 67%? I just call it like I see it. You can blame "people like me" but I'm not in a union leadership role. I did the only thing I could do and voted no. If the people in charge aren't doing a good job, we have a right to criticize that or else the same mistakes will be replayed. Why don't they release the survey results so we can determine how well they're actually representing the membership? I wonder what the satisfaction level is with what this union has accomplished?

[Protonpilot]

Once again you don't get it. A11 pilots do a bunch of unpaid work, just one example: the entire ATO process is completely unpaid.

Where are you getting this?

Instructors, check pilots and seat fill volunteers for an ATO event are all paid. It's the candidate requiring extra training that is unpaid.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. A11 pilots don't do any unpaid work.

LITC instructors at the US majors get a 90 hour guarantee, which is about 20% above the average block. Check pilots at the US majors get an actual uplift on contractual rates: 20% at AMR, 25% at UAL, 30% at DAL.

So 20% is in the ballpark of what training and check pilots get at the US majors. More work to do, but we're getting there.

I think our team got a good improvement for our A11 members, and as altiplano points out they did this off cycle without concessions.

This doesn't happen all at once. It takes a concerted effort over several contracts.

[thepoors]

Once again you don't get it. A11 pilots do a bunch of unpaid work, just one example: the entire ATO process is completely unpaid.

Where are you getting this?

Instructors, check pilots and seat fill volunteers for an ATO event are all paid.

Flew with a trainer recently who told me otherwise.

[Canadaflyer46]

Once again you don't get it. A11 pilots do a bunch of unpaid work, just one example: the entire ATO process is completely unpaid.

Where are you getting this?

Instructors, check pilots and seat fill volunteers for an ATO event are all paid. It's the candidate requiring extra training that is unpaid.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. A11 pilots don't do any unpaid work.

LITC instructors at the US majors get a 90 hour guarantee, which is about 20% above the average block. Check pilots at the US majors get an actual uplift on contractual rates: 20% at AMR, 25% at UAL, 30% at DAL.

So 20% is in the ballpark of what training and check pilots get at the US majors. More work to do, but we're getting there.

I think our team got a good improvement for our A11 members, and as altiplano points out they did this off cycle without concessions.

This doesn't happen all at once. It takes a concerted effort over several contracts.

It does when the MEC folds and settles 3 days before the deadline. We didn’t push enough at WJ either. Hopefully we’re learning from the FAs and Tech Ops on how to grow a backbone.

[altiplano]

2027? I don't think it will go like that, but it may go down in flames if people like you can't move forward, stop bitching, and start lifting each other.
Support your Association = Support your Brothers = Support Yourself

Meanwhile, you just dumped all over training pilots. If you think they're so ahead on pay/lifestyle, I'll give you the classic response: why don't you join the training department?

Once again you don't get it. A11 pilots do a bunch of unpaid work, just one example: the entire ATO process is completely unpaid. I'm sure they have a list of issues that need improvement, like pretty much every other line in this contract. But for you what they have is good enough. So what else do you think we should just settle on? How about all the contract articles that the company is calling vendor dependent right now? What is ALPA doing about that?

All the rah rah solidarity talk is great, but where did that get us last year? 67%? I just call it like I see it. You can blame "people like me" but I'm not in a union leadership role. I did the only thing I could do and voted no. If the people in charge aren't doing a good job, we have a right to criticize that or else the same mistakes will be replayed. Why don't they release the survey results so we can determine how well they're actually representing the membership? I wonder what the satisfaction level is with what this union has accomplished?

I didn't dump on A11 pilots. I said securing 8% in pure gain was a good thing. Then I asked you where you think gains should come from and listed a few areas. And you come up with ATOs (additional training opportunities) - like repeats? Your position is that running those is unpaid work? That they should attract additional pay? Is that what you're saying? The session still has to be completed within the 4 hour time slot though. Maybe an extra V1 cut should attract more pay for the student too, and the non-flying pilot. What other unpaid work do you assert A11 guys are doing? I mean they get guaranteed hours every month too. Are they doing more unpaid than line guys? I'm genuinely interested.

I'm not in the training department because I'm not interested in that. The flip side, if guys don't think it's worth it, why are they still doing it? Come back to the line with us peasant unwashed masses...

And from what I heard the "list of issues" included things that just come out of everyone else's schedules. Like preselect their schedules from all pairings before PBS blocks run vs. preselect from open time. How would that go over on the line? I think focusing on more pay uplift which benefits A11 guys significantly and not taking away from the line is probably the right direction.

I asked a rep on the "vendor dependent" and similar implementation delays, they are being challenged right now. We're likely going to see gains brought in or moved up for the company's failure to deliver for us on these things.

I think voting No was the right thing, I'm with you. But just because it didn't go our way doesn't mean we should tear it all down. We have a new MEC executive. We have new LEC members in every base. We have a new grievance chair. We are going to have a new NC chair and changes in that committee.

You're nuts if you want survey results to be published, why would we show the company our cards?

[altiplano]

re:ATOs - I mentioned same session ATOs because I didn't get what you're talking about... Because if a trainer/checker is in for an additional full sim repeat on a day they weren't scheduled for they are getting paid 100% paid above their guarantee/projection whichever is higher, PLUS 100% premium.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Remember when ACPA said “we need unity so you need to support your reps”?
Any dissent was dismissed as just an “angry minority.”

Fast forward, and here we are again...same script, different logo.
Criticism isn’t allowed.

Call it what it is: ACPA 2.0.

And we all know how that story ended. 2027’s déjà vu is coming...

[Bede]

Remember when ACPA said “we need unity so you need to support your reps”?
Any dissent was dismissed as just an “angry minority.”

Fast forward, and here we are again...same script, different logo.
Criticism isn’t allowed.

Call it what it is: ACPA 2.0.

And we all know how that story ended. 2027’s déjà vu is coming...

You are absolutely entitled to voice dissent. But the way to do that is go to union meetings, make your objections known, bring forth resolutions, volunteer, etc. When I was younger, I was a vocal anti-union keyboard warrior. Eventually someone convinced me to volunteer and I learned just how valuable our union is to our career.

What's happening here is pilots (who admittedly don't read their union memos and proudly don't even know the name of their leadership) are spouting off about how things should be done. It's no different than the uninformed passenger who runs to the CBC telling their story about how they almost died on their flight because the weather was bad/minor emergency/bag lost/etc. and demand accountability.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Volunteer...lol

The last thing this MEC wants is volunteers. This is ACPA man. They are scared of anyone they don't know

Bede...you don't know shit about ACA pilots besides waving rosey blue ALPA PomPoms.

It's a dumpsterfire

[altiplano]

Same troll accounts. No solutions, no specifics, only vague hollow accusations.

Some are crying butthurt bitches, a few are management keyboard shit disturbers, they're all trying to bring dissent and tear apart ACA solidarity and reduce our chances going forward.

2027 is coming soon. If you want a good result here is only one side to be on here.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Same troll accounts. No solutions, no specifics, only vague hollow accusations.

Some are crying butthurt bitches, a few are management keyboard shit disturbers, they're all trying to bring dissent and tear apart ACA solidarity and reduce our chances going forward.

2027 is coming soon. If you want a good result here is only one side to be on here.

Literally what ACPA would say.

Don't ask questions. Something about unity.

Then fear of some doom if you don't comply.

[jpilot77]

Same troll accounts. No solutions, no specifics, only vague hollow accusations.

Some are crying butthurt bitches, a few are management keyboard shit disturbers, they're all trying to bring dissent and tear apart ACA solidarity and reduce our chances going forward.

2027 is coming soon. If you want a good result here is only one side to be on here.

Literally what ACPA would say.

Don't ask questions. Something about unity.

Then fear of some doom if you don't comply.

So what’s your solution then?

[altiplano]

Same troll accounts. No solutions, no specifics, only vague hollow accusations.

Some are crying butthurt bitches, a few are management keyboard shit disturbers, they're all trying to bring dissent and tear apart ACA solidarity and reduce our chances going forward.

2027 is coming soon. If you want a good result here is only one side to be on here.

Literally what ACPA would say.

Don't ask questions. Something about unity.

Then fear of some doom if you don't comply.

You offer nothing. If you were around for ACPA you ought to know that there is no comparison to our representation today.

That was an absolute dumpster fire.

Yeah. Ask questions. It doesn't sound like you have though. Have you called your reps? Have you been to meetings? I didn't hear much about unity from ACPA... I hear from ALPA though. I see unity when we wear our lanyards and pins. When guys still have their AC lanyards on, that's when I know who the management wannabes are. I appreciate that.

The doom of underachieving in 2027 awaits us all, don't get on board, don't be the change. Our unity is our currency, the amount we have is directly proportional to the gains we will make in CA2. Your subversion of that hurts us. So what do you want here? You offer nothing.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Literally nearly half of Toronto wears AC lanyards and I'd say 90% in Montreal lol

That's a whole lot of "management wannabes"

So I guess with that logic...are we doomed?

Maybe another RibFest and some more BlueJays games will really put the company on notice

[altiplano]

I guess we run in different circles.

[thepoors]

Same troll accounts. No solutions, no specifics, only vague hollow accusations.

Some are crying butthurt bitches, a few are management keyboard shit disturbers, they're all trying to bring dissent and tear apart ACA solidarity and reduce our chances going forward.

2027 is coming soon. If you want a good result here is only one side to be on here.

Literally what ACPA would say.

Don't ask questions. Something about unity.

Then fear of some doom if you don't comply.

You offer nothing. If you were around for ACPA you ought to know that there is no comparison to our representation today.

That was an absolute dumpster fire.

Yeah. Ask questions. It doesn't sound like you have though. Have you called your reps? Have you been to meetings? I didn't hear much about unity from ACPA... I hear from ALPA though. I see unity when we wear our lanyards and pins. When guys still have their AC lanyards on, that's when I know who the management wannabes are. I appreciate that.

The doom of underachieving in 2027 awaits us all, don't get on board, don't be the change. Our unity is our currency, the amount we have is directly proportional to the gains we will make in CA2. Your subversion of that hurts us. So what do you want here? You offer nothing.

Speaking for myself, I did all the things. No VO, wore "world class contract" and "strike ready" lanyards (embarrassing looking back at it now), went to the pickets, played the unity game, talked up ALPA and put faith in the leadership. And they made us out to look like a bunch of clowns when they flushed a 95% strike mandate days before the deadline. Then proceeded to shove that garbage TA down everyone's throats. Sorry, but I'm not going to forget that, or the disgust and betrayal I felt, anytime soon. And I'm sure there are many that feel the same way.

If you want a unified group for the next round, ALPA needs to demonstrate they aren't going to throw us under the bus again and fold under the slightest pressure from the company. Rhetoric is one thing, but there is a lot of trust that needs to be rebuilt here. Fool me once...

[Bede]

Volunteer...lol

The last thing this MEC wants is volunteers. This is ACPA man. They are scared of anyone they don't know

Bede...you don't know shit about ACA pilots besides waving rosey blue ALPA PomPoms.

It's a dumpsterfire

Sorry, isn't your MEC presently (and in the past) run by the people involved in Pilots 4 Change? Aren't those your peeps?

[digits_]

Yeah. Ask questions. It doesn't sound like you have though. Have you called your reps? Have you been to meetings? I didn't hear much about unity from ACPA... I hear from ALPA though. I see unity when we wear our lanyards and pins. When guys still have their AC lanyards on, that's when I know who the management wannabes are. I appreciate that.

The doom of underachieving in 2027 awaits us all, don't get on board, don't be the change. Our unity is our currency, the amount we have is directly proportional to the gains we will make in CA2. Your subversion of that hurts us. So what do you want here? You offer nothing.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I am wondering what you would have done differently if the latest contract was terrible. Let's say, hypothetically , they got 2% raises across the board.

How would your actions change? Would you still be spreading the same message about unity?

[altiplano]

I'll skip participating in revisionism and hypotheticals. But I screamed from the rafters to vote No and send the last contract back as is...

That didn't happen, it ratified. There were a lot of guys that held their noses and voted yes. The gains were still large, even though I personally think they missed mark and mistakes were made at the end. We have to get over it and learn from it. Our guys got caught when the company made moves against us before we expected, the company flipped it on us and started pulling things off the table. Then we had a split MEC that got pushed into rushing their decision. These guys are human, the stakes were enormous, I don't blame them, but we have to do better. Now we have a whole new executive. About half the status members have been replaced. We have s bunch of new committee chairs.

What doesn't help is shitting all over your association.

[digits_]

I'll skip participating in revisionism and hypotheticals. But I screamed from the rafters to vote No and send the last contract back as is...

That didn't happen, it ratified. There were a lot of guys that held their noses and voted yes. The gains were still large, even though I personally think they missed mark and mistakes were made at the end. We have to get over it and learn from it. Our guys got caught when the company made moves against us before we expected, the company flipped it on us and started pulling things off the table. Then we had a split MEC that got pushed into rushing their decision. These guys are human, the stakes were enormous, I don't blame them, but we have to do better. Now we have a whole new executive. About half the status members have been replaced. We have s bunch of new committee chairs.

What doesn't help is shitting all over your association.

That sounds rational and reasonable, but the problem is that there would be no significant difference in your response whether the MEC hits the mark or misses it wildly. In other words, it doesn't matter what they did. If they succeeded or not. If all you should do is vote and then show unity, you're shooting yourself in the foot as an association IMO.

The time for unity is during negotiations and especially during strike votes. Now is the perfect time to be unhappy with your leadership and voice your concerns loudly and publically. Make it look like the union does not have its membership under control. Create a powder keg that is ready to blow at the right time. Make management afraid of a pilot group that is publically fed up, and -this is crucial- that comes together at the right time with a 99.99 strike vote and a 99% no vote when necessary. That's what will get results.

Being quiet and showing unity for years while keeping your frustrations hidden, will not.

[unitatis super omnia]

I don't know why some continue feeding these miserable trolls with intellectual thoughts when all they can offer is endless amounts of toxic cynicism, whining and laziness in return.

What are your solutions? None.
Why don't you volunteer? Too lazy.
Why not participate at your LEC meetings? Lame excuses.
Why not enact change with a resolution on anything at all? No.
Back to the trusty keyboard to criticize and cry anonymously!!!

The association and it's members would be infinitely better off handing you non-contributing, self-sabotaging, moaners your 1.8% dues back and listing you as inactive. No union on this planet could ever hope to satisfy a selfish child's insanely unrealistic contract expectations in one shot after 13 years of massively concessionary bargaining since FOS.

Sorry to break this to you, but unions can't magically negotiate happiness into the permanently sad lives of a few career complainers. You'll always be this way.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

The Yes voting reps of YUL, YWG and YVR still remain.

Must be embarrassing after the flight attendants at least showed some balls.

Until we see some new Reps, I think all we will hear is more excuses.

[CGFCK]

I don't know why some continue feeding these miserable trolls with intellectual thoughts when all they can offer is endless amounts of toxic cynicism, whining and laziness in return.

What are your solutions? None.
Why don't you volunteer? Too lazy.
Why not participate at your LEC meetings? Lame excuses.
Why not enact change with a resolution on anything at all? No.
Back to the trusty keyboard to criticize and cry anonymously!!!

The association and it's members would be infinitely better off handing you non-contributing, self-sabotaging, moaners your 1.8% dues back and listing you as inactive. No union on this planet could ever hope to satisfy a selfish child's insanely unrealistic contract expectations in one shot after 13 years of massively concessionary bargaining since FOS.

Sorry to break this to you, but unions can't magically negotiate happiness into the permanently sad lives of a few career complainers. You'll always be this way.

I mean, read this toxic diatribe. Pretty clear this is coming from a yes-voting rep.

Would you want to volunteer your time just to hang out with this?

Trying to spin dissent as “an angry few” … straight out of the old ACPA playbook. Meanwhile, literally THOUSANDS of AC pilots are walking around with company lanyards.

This is what failed leadership looks like, folks. Weak on results, strong on blame.