Recall of MEC Chair & Vice Chair

[altiplano]

That sounds rational and reasonable, but the problem is that there would be no significant difference in your response whether the MEC hits the mark or misses it wildly. In other words, it doesn't matter what they did. If they succeeded or not. If all you should do is vote and then show unity, you're shooting yourself in the foot as an association IMO.

The time for unity is during negotiations and especially during strike votes. Now is the perfect time to be unhappy with your leadership and voice your concerns loudly and publically. Make it look like the union does not have its membership under control. Create a powder keg that is ready to blow at the right time. Make management afraid of a pilot group that is publically fed up, and -this is crucial- that comes together at the right time with a 99.99 strike vote and a 99% no vote when necessary. That's what will get results.

Being quiet and showing unity for years while keeping your frustrations hidden, will not.

Yeah. There is a difference. I think you have to look at the character of the individuals involved. Look at old ACPA, those guys weren't incompetent, because they didn't work for the pilots. They actively worked for the company and sucked whatever they could out of the pilot group.

"Don't worry Phil, this won't affect us"
Pay Group
Flat pay
B scale
C scale
Cargojet MOA
Pension division
Base politics

Those guys literally bought $1000 bottles of wine at their MEC retreats.

I went after those guys to the best of my ability for nearly 10 years when I came to that realization.

I don't question the character of the former MEC Chair or the people we had for CA1 though. I look at everything they did for us and how quickly they got us there, representation, expectation, unity, more... I thought 2023 reopener was going to be a write off, but they got us turned to save the opportunity.

There is no question that those reps worked for the pilots and other than a few things along the way in hindsight, ie. letting AC lead us on, and the burning platform we somehow found ourselves on at T-minus-hours, they ran a great game. I was never so proud of this group and to be a part of it.

It's like Seattle not giving the ball to Marshawn on the 1 yard line, in the verge of winning the Superbowl, and Williams throwing a pick instead... WTF... but they wanted to win, they ran a winning game, they just screwed up at the goal line. Inexperience? Loss of nerve? Fear of the unknown? $Billions in the bag now or maybe a bit more in the bush??? I don't know. I'm not in that room, but it was a big weight and damn hard choice and I understand that. They did what they thought was right... and let's be real, we made big fucking gains no matter what any of us say.

I will criticize their decision and learn from it, but I won't smear them or my association for it. We're on the same bench and I believe we are all trying to win for each other.

[BigGreen]

That sounds rational and reasonable, but the problem is that there would be no significant difference in your response whether the MEC hits the mark or misses it wildly. In other words, it doesn't matter what they did. If they succeeded or not. If all you should do is vote and then show unity, you're shooting yourself in the foot as an association IMO.

The time for unity is during negotiations and especially during strike votes. Now is the perfect time to be unhappy with your leadership and voice your concerns loudly and publically. Make it look like the union does not have its membership under control. Create a powder keg that is ready to blow at the right time. Make management afraid of a pilot group that is publically fed up, and -this is crucial- that comes together at the right time with a 99.99 strike vote and a 99% no vote when necessary. That's what will get results.

Being quiet and showing unity for years while keeping your frustrations hidden, will not.

Yeah. There is a difference. I think you have to look at the character of the individuals involved. Look at old ACPA, those guys weren't incompetent, because they didn't work for the pilots. They actively worked for the company and sucked whatever they could out of the pilot group.

"Don't worry Phil, this won't affect us"
Pay Group
Flat pay
B scale
C scale
Cargojet MOA
Pension division
Base politics

Those guys literally bought $1000 bottles of wine at their MEC retreats.

I went after those guys to the best of my ability for nearly 10 years when I came to that realization.

I don't question the character of the former MEC Chair or the people we had for CA1 though. I look at everything they did for us and how quickly they got us there, representation, expectation, unity, more... I thought 2023 reopener was going to be a write off, but they got us turned to save the opportunity.

There is no question that those reps worked for the pilots and other than a few things along the way in hindsight, ie. letting AC lead us on, and the burning platform we somehow found ourselves on at T-minus-hours, they ran a great game. I was never so proud of this group and to be a part of it.

It's like Seattle not giving the ball to Marshawn on the 1 yard line, in the verge of winning the Superbowl, and Williams throwing a pick instead... WTF... but they wanted to win, they ran a winning game, they just screwed up at the goal line. Inexperience? Loss of nerve? Fear of the unknown? $Billions in the bag now or maybe a bit more in the bush??? I don't know. I'm not in that room, but it was a big weight and damn hard choice and I understand that. They did what they thought was right... and let's be real, we made big fucking gains no matter what any of us say.

I will criticize their decision and learn from it, but I won't smear them or my association for it. We're on the same bench and I believe we are all trying to win for each other.

A whole lot of work for Westjet plus 2%.

(But without the long call reserve, productivity RIGs, profit sharing, trip trade etc)

Even ACPA surely could have at least matched WJ

[unitatis super omnia]

I don't know why some continue feeding these miserable trolls with intellectual thoughts when all they can offer is endless amounts of toxic cynicism, whining and laziness in return.

What are your solutions? None.
Why don't you volunteer? Too lazy.
Why not participate at your LEC meetings? Lame excuses.
Why not enact change with a resolution on anything at all? No.
Back to the trusty keyboard to criticize and cry anonymously!!!

The association and it's members would be infinitely better off handing you non-contributing, self-sabotaging, moaners your 1.8% dues back and listing you as inactive. No union on this planet could ever hope to satisfy a selfish child's insanely unrealistic contract expectations in one shot after 13 years of massively concessionary bargaining since FOS.

Sorry to break this to you, but unions can't magically negotiate happiness into the permanently sad lives of a few career complainers. You'll always be this way.

I mean, read this toxic diatribe. Pretty clear this is coming from a yes-voting rep.

Would you want to volunteer your time just to hang out with this?

Trying to spin dissent as “an angry few” … straight out of the old ACPA playbook. Meanwhile, literally THOUSANDS of AC pilots are walking around with company lanyards.

This is what failed leadership looks like, folks. Weak on results, strong on blame.

If I were a rep, I wouldn't be wasting my time on here arguing with a small pack of irrelevant hyenas. Unlike you, they at least try to help our members while you sit around taking pathetic, pot shots at volunteers from the bleachers. And yet they still volunteer their time and effort only to be spit on by you thankless goofs. It won't happen, but I hope you get to experience a taste of your own medicine one day.

Also, spin dissent? Laughable. Do you actually believe that the dozen of you whiners represent tangible dissent? I bet 99.9% of members don't even browse this thread which makes your depressing existence on here an insignificant rounding error in the real world. This is what sad, online activism looks like. Strong on complaints, weak on action = zero impact.

[digits_]

Unlike you, they at least try to help our members while you sit around taking pathetic, pot shots at volunteers from the bleachers. And yet they still volunteer their time and effort only to be spit on by you thankless goofs.

The volunteer argument would be much more powerful if members weren't paying close to 2% of their salary for their representation. And yes, I know they don't get that money. But that's between the volunteers and ALPA.

The members pay ALPA. The volunteers choose to represent ALPA. It makes only sense that those volunteers will be in the crosshairs when members feel unhappy about their representation. It would be just as easy to say that if the volunteers don't like it, they don't have to volunteer. Because it is is, well, voluntary.

Neither of those arguments are really helpful in the discussion though.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

I bet 99.9% of members don't even browse this thread which makes your depressing existence on here an insignificant rounding error in the real world.

Bro,

Pilot Assistance is available 24/7.

And dude...this thread has 67,000 views.

That's a lot of people witnessing the break down of a Yes voting MEC member. Not a good look!

[mel gibson]

My opinion, union reps and management types are all the same.
They like talking and not flying.
All I know is both the majority of narrow body and wide body pilots schedules are brutal.
Company not following the contract.
The kicker for me , was seeing a photo of 6 union reps in Winnipeg giving a briefing on how to bid to about 10 YWG based pilots. Then probably off to the pub to talk about nothing.
Alpa is back to being the ACPA social club.

[RAIM]

My opinion, union reps and management types are all the same.
They like talking and not flying.
All I know is both the majority of narrow body and wide body pilots schedules are brutal.
Company not following the contract.
The kicker for me , was seeing a photo of 6 union reps in Winnipeg giving a briefing on how to bid to about 10 YWG based pilots. Then probably off to the pub to talk about nothing.
Alpa is back to being the ACPA social club.

Steak tastes the same for ACPA Social Club & Management!

United

[thepoors]

I bet 99.9% of members don't even browse this thread which makes your depressing existence on here an insignificant rounding error in the real world.

Bro,

Pilot Assistance is available 24/7.

And dude...this thread has 67,000 views.

That's a lot of people witnessing the break down of a Yes voting MEC member. Not a good look!

Ineffective leadership 101:

1) Accept zero responsibility
2) Point fingers and deflect blame
3) Make up stats
4) Get hysterical
5) Spew personal attacks
6) "You're either with us or you're against us"

[Dry Guy]

Instead of 2% of our salary, which adds up to hundreds of thousands of dollars over our careers, I'd like to hire two lawyers. Every time the contract is up they bring us the company's offer and we vote to accept or to strike. It would cost us each $100 a year and produce the same results, if not better.

[FelixGustof]

Instead of 2% of our salary, which adds up to hundreds of thousands of dollars over our careers, I'd like to hire two lawyers. Every time the contract is up they bring us the company's offer and we vote to accept or to strike. It would cost us each $100 a year and produce the same results, if not better.

2% dues?!

That sounds worse than the worst high cost low performing mutual fund you could buy. I'd be dumping it and looking for something that actually performs.

Must be quite the steak & lobster these guys are eating

All just to get what WestJet fought for

[daedalusx]

Instead of 2% of our salary, which adds up to hundreds of thousands of dollars over our careers, I'd like to hire two lawyers. Every time the contract is up they bring us the company's offer and we vote to accept or to strike. It would cost us each $100 a year and produce the same results, if not better.

2% dues?!

That sounds worse than the worst high cost low performing mutual fund you could buy. I'd be dumping it and looking for something that actually performs.

Must be quite the steak & lobster these guys are eating

All just to get what WestJet fought for

It’s even worse than that, they also take dues on OT … not just on base salary.

[stall]

I bet 99.9% of members don't even browse this thread which makes your depressing existence on here an insignificant rounding error in the real world.

Bro,

Pilot Assistance is available 24/7.

And dude...this thread has 67,000 views.

That's a lot of people witnessing the break down of a Yes voting MEC member. Not a good look!

Ineffective leadership 101:

1) Accept zero responsibility
2) Point fingers and deflect blame
3) Make up stats
4) Get hysterical
5) Spew personal attacks
6) "You're either with us or you're against us"

ACPA is back baby!

Just more dues, expanded excuses, and an even tighter social club!

[thepoors]

Bro,

Pilot Assistance is available 24/7.

And dude...this thread has 67,000 views.

That's a lot of people witnessing the break down of a Yes voting MEC member. Not a good look!

Ineffective leadership 101:

1) Accept zero responsibility
2) Point fingers and deflect blame
3) Make up stats
4) Get hysterical
5) Spew personal attacks
6) "You're either with us or you're against us"

ACPA is back baby!

Just more dues, expanded excuses, and an even tighter social club!

7) Eat steak
8.) Collect 90hr guarantee

[ThrustIdle]

Ineffective leadership 101:

1) Accept zero responsibility
2) Point fingers and deflect blame
3) Make up stats
4) Get hysterical
5) Spew personal attacks
6) "You're either with us or you're against us"

ACPA is back baby!

Just more dues, expanded excuses, and an even tighter social club!

7) Eat steak
8.) Collect 90hr guarantee

Maybe we can strike in 2027 to get that 90 hrs guarantee up

[Freshredmeat]

ACPA is back baby!

Just more dues, expanded excuses, and an even tighter social club!

7) Eat steak
8.) Collect 90hr guarantee

Maybe we can strike in 2027 to get that 90 hrs guarantee up

I guess the 'survey data' said that getting reps more money than the rest of us was a high priority?

[flyingcanuck]

7) Eat steak
8.) Collect 90hr guarantee

Maybe we can strike in 2027 to get that 90 hrs guarantee up

I guess the 'survey data' said that getting reps more money than the rest of us was a high priority?

Jesus. They do alot of work, and were given less credit than our US counterparts. So which is it, do we want US pay or not? ohhh its the line pilots who get US pay not union reps. You guys and your negativity are wild. A rising tide lifts all ships.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Maybe we can strike in 2027 to get that 90 hrs guarantee up

I guess the 'survey data' said that getting reps more money than the rest of us was a high priority?

Jesus. They do alot of work, and were given less credit than our US counterparts. So which is it, do we want US pay or not? ohhh its the line pilots who get US pay not union reps. You guys and your negativity are wild. A rising tide lifts all ships.

Line pilots need to pattern bargain off of ULCCs & Canadian discount carriers

Reps need to compare to US pay

Makes sense!

[stall]

I guess the 'survey data' said that getting reps more money than the rest of us was a high priority?

Jesus. They do alot of work, and were given less credit than our US counterparts. So which is it, do we want US pay or not? ohhh its the line pilots who get US pay not union reps. You guys and your negativity are wild. A rising tide lifts all ships.

Line pilots need to pattern bargain off of ULCCs & Canadian discount carriers

Reps need to compare to US pay

Makes sense!

Leaders Eat First

ACPA is back baby!!

[altiplano]

You guys are out of it...

Elected reps split their displacement. ie. not full displacement like ACPA.

The fully displaced executive ie. MEC Chair get less than a checker does on their fleet and it's 80% paid by the company. I don't have a problem with that. Hell, last 2 MEC Chairs have been FOs... we're getting a bargain.

[thepoors]

Jesus. They do alot of work, and were given less credit than our US counterparts. So which is it, do we want US pay or not? ohhh its the line pilots who get US pay not union reps. You guys and your negativity are wild. A rising tide lifts all ships.

Except we didn't get US pay, and they did. Why should they get the same credit as US counterparts if they didn't deliver comparable results?

[altiplano]

The whole executive has turned over. Not the same people in the FT FPL positions as when it was negotiated.

Elected reps only get a start credit and then get what they are awarded in their block, same as line pilots.

Jesus you are ignorant.

[Mr. North]

A shocking amount of willful ignorance and misinformation from the usual crowd plus a few "new" accounts.

ALPA Dues is not 2%. It's 1.85%. It's important to be specific when it pertains to percentages. You wouldn't round up a 1.85% mortgage rate to 2% would you? Of course not. But you won't here these folks acknowledge that because it weakens their argument. They also won't acknowledge the 13.6% dues return we just received (second year in a row). That essentially reduces our annual rate down to 1.59%. Suddenly we're not that far off from the old ACPA rate.

If you've been reading any of the ALPA emails in cruise (clearly most of these trolls have not), you'll realize that ALPA is flush with cash. I expect these refunds to continue at least until the outcome of the ALPA/APA merger is known, at which point we'll most likely see a sizeable reduction.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Pretty easy to see why ALPA is flush with cash

They got a strike fund which they treat like a mutual fund. 25 years without a strike and counting.

2% (oh sorry 1.85% my bad) on a lot of pilots is going to make you flush with cash

And for the record, so was ACPA. One of the reasons the loyalists didn't want to merge.

All to pattern bargain off of discount carriers & ULCCs.

A grand strategy!

[Fanblade]

Jesus. They do alot of work, and were given less credit than our US counterparts. So which is it, do we want US pay or not? ohhh its the line pilots who get US pay not union reps. You guys and your negativity are wild. A rising tide lifts all ships.

Except we didn't get US pay, and they did. Why should they get the same credit as US counterparts if they didn't deliver comparable results?

The ACA MEC delivered results that far exceeded what any US carrier produced during the first or second bargaining cycles post Bankruptcy. Granted our catchup was so large by the point that when we negotiated, it was easier. Catching up is always easier. Setting a new high water mark more difficult.

It wasn’t until 2015-2017, 10 years post bankruptcy, that the US exceeded us in pay. Maybe pause here for a second and read it again.

If you want to compare to the US then you need to compare to all of it. Including an accurate view of how long it took them from post bankruptcy, to where they are now. That isn’t just money either. Things like daily guarantees versus duty period guarantee are only about a decade old. When Daily Guaranties first started appearing they were much lower than what we see today. The US carriers had the same QOL issues as we do today and they did not fix them overnight.

Your anger and frustration is misplaced. It should be directed at the 20 years post bankruptcy where we didn’t do anything to recover. Even then that is a useless way to channel that anger. The only way that frustration and anger is useful is if you channel it into creating change. Making things better.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

WestJet +2%

That's what we got. Still bad productivity, bad reserve, no bonus.

Fanboy Blade. I think you're really going to be disappointed if you think a bunch of defensive Yes Voting MEC members are going to rally the troops for more.

Especially after looking like weaklings after the FA Strike. Like it or not, that is what a union looks like.