How competitive is 750+ Total Time?

[leafs95]

Good day all,

In a market of such uncertainty, I was wondering just how competitive an application with 750+ TT, 500+ PIC, actual operational experience and non-instructing time is with regards to 703/704/705 job applications.

Where does that put me exactly with the winter coming?

Cheers

[digits_]

Will the answer to this question change what you are planning on doing? If so, what do you actually want to know?

As written, the question is very broad and the answers will likely be nothing more than speculation. Competitive or not, you'll still want to get more hours and experience if you're working towards getting a 705 job.

You might be competitive, you might not be. You'll never know in advance. Either way, apply for the jobs you want.

[leafs95]

Will the answer to this question change what you are planning on doing? If so, what do you actually want to know?

As written, the question is very broad and the answers will likely be nothing more than speculation. Competitive or not, you'll still want to get more hours and experience if you're working towards getting a 705 job.

You might be competitive, you might not be. You'll never know in advance. Either way, apply for the jobs you want.

Hmm not sure how to respond to this one... yes of course the question is on the speculative side. But I am also sure there are people here that are in hiring circles, the same circles that might have some intel on what sort of hours operators are looking for. I am planning on applying everywhere I can so no, it's not like your answer would've changed my next steps. Point of the question was to understand where I presently lie on such a dynamic hiring totem pole.

Nevertheless, thank you for your reply.

[dustyroads]

Will the answer to this question change what you are planning on doing? If so, what do you actually want to know?

As written, the question is very broad and the answers will likely be nothing more than speculation. Competitive or not, you'll still want to get more hours and experience if you're working towards getting a 705 job.

You might be competitive, you might not be. You'll never know in advance. Either way, apply for the jobs you want.

Hmm not sure how to respond to this one... yes of course the question is on the speculative side. But I am also sure there are people here that are in hiring circles, the same circles that might have some intel on what sort of hours operators are looking for. I am planning on applying everywhere I can so no, it's not like your answer would've changed my next steps. Point of the question was to understand where I presently lie on such a dynamic hiring totem pole.

Nevertheless, thank you for your reply.

Attitude showing through!

[leafs95]

Will the answer to this question change what you are planning on doing? If so, what do you actually want to know?

As written, the question is very broad and the answers will likely be nothing more than speculation. Competitive or not, you'll still want to get more hours and experience if you're working towards getting a 705 job.

You might be competitive, you might not be. You'll never know in advance. Either way, apply for the jobs you want.

Hmm not sure how to respond to this one... yes of course the question is on the speculative side. But I am also sure there are people here that are in hiring circles, the same circles that might have some intel on what sort of hours operators are looking for. I am planning on applying everywhere I can so no, it's not like your answer would've changed my next steps. Point of the question was to understand where I presently lie on such a dynamic hiring totem pole.

Nevertheless, thank you for your reply.

Attitude showing through!

Interesting. I feel like I was being respectful to digits - and if it doesn't seem that way I apologize to him. Genuinely was not trying to throw shade at him, I simply didn't really understand where he was coming from and clarified from my end.

As far as your jab goes, I really do not understand why you made such a simple thread so personal. I wish you all the best.

Looking for positive discourse with regards to the topic at hand!

[dustyroads]

Hmm not sure how to respond to this one... yes of course the question is on the speculative side. But I am also sure there are people here that are in hiring circles, the same circles that might have some intel on what sort of hours operators are looking for. I am planning on applying everywhere I can so no, it's not like your answer would've changed my next steps. Point of the question was to understand where I presently lie on such a dynamic hiring totem pole.

Nevertheless, thank you for your reply.

Attitude showing through!

Interesting. I feel like I was being respectful to digits - and if it doesn't seem that way I apologize to him. Genuinely was not trying to throw shade at him, I simply didn't really understand where he was coming from and clarified from my end.

As far as your jab goes, I really do not understand why you made such a simple thread so personal. I wish you all the best.

Looking for positive discourse with regards to the topic at hand!

You said you were gonna apply everywhere you can. That will give you an idea how competitive you are.
I’m sure I’m not the only one who’d say your attitude was shining through!

[DanWEC]

Leafs95, I'm a bit distanced from any hiring right now, so I can't help you other than to say you "should" be easily able to grab an entry level job in the next step of what sector you want. No problem with a 703 FO job, not sure about others but likely competitive in most.

There reason I'm chiming in is to let you know that Dustyroads is some kind of troll, give no regard.

@Dustyroads, I don't care about whatever weird glory hole you picture yourself whistling into by posting here, but I find utterly repugnant to mess with people who are fairly new in the industry who might take your diarrhea seriously.

Leafs95, seems like your attitude is just fine given your diplomatic response!

Good luck!

[SE7EN]

Will the answer to this question change what you are planning on doing? If so, what do you actually want to know?

As written, the question is very broad and the answers will likely be nothing more than speculation. Competitive or not, you'll still want to get more hours and experience if you're working towards getting a 705 job.

You might be competitive, you might not be. You'll never know in advance. Either way, apply for the jobs you want.

Hmm not sure how to respond to this one... yes of course the question is on the speculative side. But I am also sure there are people here that are in hiring circles, the same circles that might have some intel on what sort of hours operators are looking for. I am planning on applying everywhere I can so no, it's not like your answer would've changed my next steps. Point of the question was to understand where I presently lie on such a dynamic hiring totem pole.

Nevertheless, thank you for your reply.

Attitude showing through!

Dusty roads speaks in in projection & antagonization, languages not common to most sane folks

[digits_]

Will the answer to this question change what you are planning on doing? If so, what do you actually want to know?

As written, the question is very broad and the answers will likely be nothing more than speculation. Competitive or not, you'll still want to get more hours and experience if you're working towards getting a 705 job.

You might be competitive, you might not be. You'll never know in advance. Either way, apply for the jobs you want.

Hmm not sure how to respond to this one... yes of course the question is on the speculative side. But I am also sure there are people here that are in hiring circles, the same circles that might have some intel on what sort of hours operators are looking for. I am planning on applying everywhere I can so no, it's not like your answer would've changed my next steps. Point of the question was to understand where I presently lie on such a dynamic hiring totem pole.

Nevertheless, thank you for your reply.

Allow me to clarify. Your question isn't weird or unexpected, most people would like to know their chances of finding that next job. While a nice thing to ponder, it shouldn't affect anything at this point. If a better job comes along, take it. Doesn't matter if you would be competitive or not.

750 hours isn't much. It isn't nothing either. Would you qualify for other jobs? Absolutely. Will you get hired? Hard to say. Without an ATPL it's all still very luck based.

You can wonder an hypthesize all you want, but eventually it will come down to: do i stick with my current job, or do I take job offer X. Before you can get that, you have to apply pretty much everywhere.

Perhaps an other small point to consider. I know it's all the rage on AvCanada to not consider instructor hours as "real" hours or "operational experience", but be aware it's very likely some of the pilots/captains you'll be flying with in that next 70x job will likely have had a significant amount of instruction time. Perhaps even the people interviewing you. You likely didn't mean anything by it, but describing you experience as you did in your initial post might irk some people.

[‘Bob’]

First thing I’d suggest is ditch the “actual operational experience” and “non-instructing time”. You have 750 hours and if you haven’t actually done instructing.. you have no clue what it’s about.

All of my time was instructing at 750 hours. I learned things like CRM, how to supervise and delegate, and also got all of my ATPL requirements out of the way except total time. Ironically I had really good hands and feet because I’d flown from the right seat and demonstrated many different maneuvers.

[Red_Comet]

Just adding my two cents to this, I've seen folks go from "real flying" (705) to instructing and lets just say they struggled to a degree that was shocking to me and others involved. I've also seen fighter pilots struggle with getting back into GA flying. The reality is that all flying is challenging in its own way, and nobody is Maverick unless they are current on whatever aircraft/flight ops they are an expert in.

It was funny (but jarring) starting out and having all these expectations from movies and hearsay, and seeing them demolished right in front of my eyes. All flying is serious business. Pilots die every day doing every type of flying that exists. Experienced, seasoned pilots also die from making the same mistakes rookies make due to complacency. Leave the ego behind if you want to live as a pilot. Not only does it make one less annoying to be around, but one learns more and stays vigilant in all flight ops.

[cdnavater]

Good day all,

In a market of such uncertainty, I was wondering just how competitive an application with 750+ TT, 500+ PIC, actual operational experience and non-instructing time is with regards to 703/704/705 job applications.

Where does that put me exactly with the winter coming?

Cheers

I’m inclined to agree with some of the other poster’s opinions, since you don’t really say and you would if it was, all your PIC is piston single, so your competitiveness with instructors of the same TT is irrelevant, maybe a very slight edge but honestly nothing at all in my mind.
Now, I’ve been out of the hiring aspect for many years but as a trainer in 705 operations, a 750 pilot is a 750 hour pilot unless that 750 hour pilot has sat right seat in a twin turbine.
So, I wouldn’t expect your resume to hit the top of any piles over same time instructors, my humble opinion of course. Good luck in your search but set your expectations low and hope for the best!

[leafs95]

Some great responses, thank you everyone. You guys are definitely right - I should be more careful with the words I use. It definitely does seem like I alluded that instructing was worse than "operational experience" even though that was not at all the goal. I personally don't believe that and I guess I should watch out going forward.

With that being said, why do some operators like Pasco and CMA require higher mins for instructors as opposed to 702-705 applicants?

[Tbayer2021]

With that being said, why do some operators like Pasco and CMA require higher mins for instructors as opposed to 702-705 applicants?

Because operational experience always trumps instructor time. Instructors don't like to be reminded of that.

[‘Bob’]

Hmm… I actually worked for PASCO. Was not my experience. Mind you, this was a long time ago. I had worked up north and had twin turbine time, but all of my PIC time was instructor. Probably just biases of amateur hiring managers at these revolving door companies.. plus I bet they get more instructor candidates that want to remain urban than those who head up north with less time to get hired to do the same jobs.

I’d also argue against right seat turbine time being more valuable because it entirely depends on the company. Some have the FOs immersed in the operation and basically being captain in terms of flying and decision making depending on their previous experience or how long they’ve been with the company.

But some are literally just gear and flap operators. Watching influencer videos on YouTube would give you the same experience and responsibility.. the only difference is you can’t log it.

Meanwhile an instructor has to do decision making and risk assessment and is ultimately responsible for the safe flight. Students coming up with new and creative ways to kill you makes your time as a training or line indoc captain far easier.

[Canoehead]

Because operational experience always trumps instructor time.

This isn't true. It depends on a lot of factors, and one time over another is not always the deciding factor.

I’d also argue against right seat turbine time being more valuable because it entirely depends on the company. Some have the FOs immersed in the operation and basically being captain in terms of flying and decision making depending on their previous experience or how long they’ve been with the company...
...Meanwhile an instructor has to do decision making and risk assessment and is ultimately responsible for the safe flight. Students coming up with new and creative ways to kill you makes your time as a training or line indoc captain far easier.

Bob is correct. Multi-crew time is actually the most important in my world. Does an instructor and student count as multi-crew? What do you think? Turbine time doesn't usually factor in. Turbines are easy. Turbocharged? Now I'm paying attention

Anyone who thinks instructor time is any less valuable than non-instructor time is living under a rock. Great if you didn't instruct. Great if you did. They both bring advantages into the 704/705 world. I did both for a lot of hours.

To the OP question, 750 is low time, no matter how you look at it. But at my 705 operation, 750 can get you in the door. There's prob 703 ops that wouldn't look at you at 750. All depends on those "lot of factors". Sell yourself. Get high marks on your exams (anyone who thinks that "a pass is a pass" might also be living under a rock). This isn't 2019 anymore. See italics above...

[Tbayer2021]

Instructing time is certainly not useless and one learns many valuable and transferable skills. But to claim its just as valuable and potentially more so than actual 702/703 time when looking for other 703-705 jobs is just delusional. During my years up north, not once did I see any of my employers too keen on hiring instructors over anyone else with any type of operational experience. I even recall my CP at one of those places airing his frustration about only having instructors applying. They'd sooner promote the rampie that only has 250 hours and hasn't flown in 12 months and make the instructor the new ramp guy.

When the regionals were taking 750-1500 guys, they'd exhaust every every flap and gear operator in a PC12 before they even considered an instructor.

This is a screenshot of AC's pilot posting application. What does it look like they prioritize? Hint, its not instructing time. This applies to every other airline in the country.

[philaviate]

Instructing time is certainly not useless and one learns many valuable and transferable skills. But to claim its just as valuable and potentially more so than actual 702/703 time when looking for other 703-705 jobs is just delusional. During my years up north, not once did I see any of my employers too keen on hiring instructors over anyone else with any type of operational experience. I even recall my CP at one of those places airing his frustration about only having instructors applying. They'd sooner promote the rampie that only has 250 hours and hasn't flown in 12 months and make the instructor the new ramp guy.

When the regionals were taking 750-1500 guys, they'd exhaust every every flap and gear operator in a PC12 before they even considered an instructor.

This is a screenshot of AC's pilot posting application. What does it look like they prioritize? Hint, its not instructing time. This applies to every other airline in the country.

WestJet encore and others have specifically higher minimums for instructors than others.

Let's be honest 750hrs to and from the local practice area isn't that exciting. And with a good student how many hours of actually controlling the plane will the instructor do? I know during my cpl my instructor demoed a few maneuvers but had hands on the controls for less than one hour in my entire cpl/multi/IFR training.

[Tbayer2021]

Instructing time is certainly not useless and one learns many valuable and transferable skills. But to claim its just as valuable and potentially more so than actual 702/703 time when looking for other 703-705 jobs is just delusional. During my years up north, not once did I see any of my employers too keen on hiring instructors over anyone else with any type of operational experience. I even recall my CP at one of those places airing his frustration about only having instructors applying. They'd sooner promote the rampie that only has 250 hours and hasn't flown in 12 months and make the instructor the new ramp guy.

When the regionals were taking 750-1500 guys, they'd exhaust every every flap and gear operator in a PC12 before they even considered an instructor.

This is a screenshot of AC's pilot posting application. What does it look like they prioritize? Hint, its not instructing time. This applies to every other airline in the country.

WestJet encore and others have specifically higher minimums for instructors than others.

Let's be honest 750hrs to and from the local practice area isn't that exciting. And with a good student how many hours of actually controlling the plane will the instructor do? I know during my cpl my instructor demoed a few maneuvers but had hands on the controls for less than one hour in my entire cpl/multi/IFR training.

Who would have thought that even the guy flying a VFR 206 in practically IFR weather may be a better pilot than the one doing his millionth lap in perfect VMC.

[digits_]

This is a screenshot of AC's pilot posting application. What does it look like they prioritize? Hint, its not instructing time. This applies to every other airline in the country.

Seems like they would be in the same category as your VFR in IMC 206 pilot mentioned earlier

[Tbayer2021]

This is a screenshot of AC's pilot posting application. What does it look like they prioritize? Hint, its not instructing time. This applies to every other airline in the country.

Seems like they would be in the same category as your VFR in IMC 206 pilot mentioned earlier

As far as AC is concerned, sure. But that medevac operator looking for an FO will take the 206 guy over the instructor any day. And the airlines that did hire 750h pilots will sooner take an king air/PC12/Metro/MU2 FO over an instructor with more hours. I really don't understand why this is so difficult for people. This isn't really up for debate. Have there been exceptions out there? Absolutely! But operational experience will get you much further and get you there quicker by and large.

Many airlines even have higher minimums for instructors. If that doesn't drive home the point, nothing will and you're free to continue your, "instructing time is just as valuable", mental gymnastics.

[DanWEC]

Ah, it's still time, shows you're good with theory and communication, but just like anything else it has an expiry date. 1000 hrs of instruction? Great, you stuck around, committed to your students, etc. 5000 hrs? Well, maybe we start talking about why the jump now. Maybe the reasons are completely appropriate and reasonable, or maybe red flags are waving. Same with relatively high FO or 703 capt time, survey time, etc. Interviews and discussion are a lot more important than the Taleo matrix.

[digits_]

This is a screenshot of AC's pilot posting application. What does it look like they prioritize? Hint, its not instructing time. This applies to every other airline in the country.

Seems like they would be in the same category as your VFR in IMC 206 pilot mentioned earlier

As far as AC is concerned, sure. But that medevac operator looking for an FO will take the 206 guy over the instructor any day. And the airlines that did hire 750h pilots will sooner take an king air/PC12/Metro/MU2 FO over an instructor with more hours. I really don't understand why this is so difficult for people. This isn't really up for debate. Have there been exceptions out there? Absolutely! But operational experience will get you much further and get you there quicker by and large.

Perhaps, but there are more scenarios out there. It's been quite common for 1500 hour FOs to be passed over if they have not enough pic time while an instructor might hold the ATPL license and get the upgrade.

Especially at medevac ops where sometimes stringent requirements might be in play, an instructor can easily bypass an FO due to their (lack off) PIC time.

Would a 206 PIC pilot have the same chance? Perhaps. An instructor might be collecting multi pic time.

Do some companies prefer non FI time? Absolutely. But up until a point. If you're operating a navajo, an fi with multi pic might be more desirable than a pc12 FO without any pic time.

[Canoehead]

Funny how adamant guys can be about their opinion as if the rest of us have no clue what we are talking about. So, it's not up for debate (not that I care to).

I think the OP got his answer.

[Stratopaused]

I don't buy that instructing counts as multi-crew experience that requires CRM. There's a huge difference between two pilots who are trained to work together and share responsibility for the outcome of the flight, and an instructor providing direction to a student; the latter doesn't involve them working together to solve problems in normal circumstances. The lesson plans are clearly laid out, there's no need to set up approaches or calculate performance, and the student simply isn't trained for CRM. It's a very dictatorial environment.

I did initial training at a 705 with a career instructor who had thousands of hours and decades of experience, and he looked down on everyone else in the class because he had more total time than the rest of us. He walked around like his shit didn't stink, and he claimed he had enormous amounts of CRM experience because every flight he did had two pilots. It became apparent in the very first sim session that he was utterly wrong about that, because he kept trying to do everything himself, and I had to keep telling him that I was there to help him. He tried running an emergency checklist while flying the plane, he put the flaps and gear down when he was the PF instead of telling me to do it, and when he was about to do something prohibited and I informed him he shouldn't do it he barked that he knew what he was doing. Needless to say, I proceeded to my PPC, and he didn't receive a recommend.