Does anyone know what the MEC is actually trying to get out of the ULP?

[truedude]

For the last two years your group did nothing but obfuscate, obstruct, and failed to offer anything meaningful or relevant, eventually leading to the CIRB kicking them out. So same old same old.

Why would anyone sit down to negotiate with someone who puts a loaded gun on the table? A Section 35 filing, real or implied, has been the backdrop of your group’s approach for those two years. It’s been demands, ultimatums, and thinly veiled threats from day one. That may have worked under ACPA, or when dealing with the company, but with ACA it’s the wrong approach.

Even if the odds of success are low, the mechanism itself still carries significant risk to our seniority structure, and ACA would be negligent not to take that seriously. That’s why when a Section 35 is in the mix, the only reasonable response is to narrow the scope of discussions. No one is going to build trust, explore solutions, or take on additional legal exposure while the other side is actively positioning themselves for litigation. That’s not “obfuscating” or "obstructing". It's basic risk management.

Like I said, your leadership is living in the past. Whether it's 2, 5, or 10 years ago. It's an entirely different environment today. We have joined ALPA. 95% of pilots in Canada are now ALPA pilots. It's a new age! For the first time in modern history we are all united, and yet here we are blinded by past grievances (however recent), incapable of seizing on the opportunities before us. There are no easy answers for Jazz but Section 35 is by far the worst one of them all.

Promising things have changed, without evidence of change, is just empty rhetoric. Nothing ACA has done in the last week, or two years indicates anything has changed. And again, we still need AC Corporate to get on board with any solutions, and if they don't, then it really doesnt matter how altruistic ACA might suddenly have become. And then we are right back with the exact same option in front of us, which is the s.35.

[hithere]

For all the AC pilots weighing in here, let me ask you this… is your company facing an existential crisis? As in, do you have existing FOs willing and able to upgrade and/or are you able to recruit “captain ready”candidates to sustain your operation? Because Jazz cannot. So why don’t you piss off and enjoy your job security? Jazz cannot upgrade or DEC enough Captains to staff even it’s minimum guaranteed(until 2035) 80 tail minimum. Like this company is in serious danger of forfeiting its CPA obligations. It’s pathetic that JAZ ALPA are the ones trying to help develop a plan to keep this operation afloat. Isn’t that Jazz management’s prerogative?
But Jazz management says they can’t do @#$! all unless AC management green lights it. What a mess

[truedude]

For all the AC pilots weighing in here, let me ask you this… is your company facing an existential crisis? As in, do you have existing FOs willing and able to upgrade and/or are you able to recruit “captain ready”candidates to sustain your operation? Because Jazz cannot. So why don’t you piss off and enjoy your job security? Jazz cannot upgrade or DEC enough Captains to staff even it’s minimum guaranteed(until 2035) 80 tail minimum. Like this company is in serious danger of forfeiting its CPA obligations. It’s pathetic that JAZ ALPA are the ones trying to help develop a plan to keep this operation afloat. Isn’t that Jazz management’s prerogative?
But Jazz management says they can’t do @#$! all unless AC management green lights it. What a mess

But don't worry, if we just remain placid, and trust that the Air Canada pilot group will act differently than the last thirty years, they will come and save us... and apparently then have the ability to get AC corporate to agree too. As long as we don't do anything that might upset them... Or do anything they consider encroaching on their territory... Because thats a new position from them.

I would love it if we all got along, and a solution could be found that works for everyone. But right now we have Jazz, Encore, Westjet, Porter, and AC all competing for the same shrinking pool of pilots. The only way this gets fixed with Jazz remaining separate is a big pay raise. And I simply don't see the current AC management group doing that. Or agreeing to anything really. Which will still likely put us in a position that forces us to play the one card we have to get AC to actually do anything, and that is s.35.

I just don't see how it is remotely realistic that it isnt the eventual path that needs to be taken. And doing it before AC tries to wiggle out of the CPA completely for Jazz failing to meet the minimum flight requirements under the agreement.

[Bede]

I thought the s. 35 application was in response to interfering with bargaining. Now it's an attempt to improve the viability of the airline?

Your jobs aren't going anywhere in 10 years. If Jazz can't staff the airline, AC won't find another CPA provider who can either.

[hithere]

The interference in bargaining resulted in less pay increases than were needed to attract and retain pilots that could/would go Captain here. So it’s both

[rudder]

The interference in bargaining resulted in less pay increases than were needed to attract and retain pilots that could/would go Captain here. So it’s both

As I understood the arguments at the time, the justification presented for the larger universal pay adjustment was in fact to both attract and retain experienced pilots. Threats at the time included departures of current Jazz pilots to fledgling NB carriers seeking jet experienced DEC and FO as well as competition to attract experienced new-hire pilots targeting ATPL qualified pilots with relevant operational experience.

Compensation, QOL, and relative seniority considerations resulted in the vast majority of former SKV E175 CA departing from Jazz with many (including almost all of the former SKV training department) migrating to Porter. Jazz was never going to be competitive with the E2 pay offered at Porter, particularly since year 1 CA pay at Porter far outpaced the top scale CA pay at Jazz (both actual and rumoured).

So the real target demographic of the pay increases should have been the year 1-4 CA and year 1-4 FO if the most significant underlying issue was lack of experienced and upgradeable applicants at Jazz. The second target might have been training pilots since it is a volunteer position and without a fully staffed training department the whole operation will grind to a halt. Ultimately, higher pay for tenure is never going to retain a pilot with ambitions beyond flying at the Tier II level.

It must certainly be frustrating to see the compensation offered at Tier II carriers in the US and then look at the paycheque here in Canada. But there are/were different challenges facing those carriers and experienced pilots had many more options available. Even that dynamic has temporarily slowed with delayed mainline fleet expansion and a questionable economy.

If there is a section 35 filing - and the CIRB directs that a hearing be convened on the matter - then many of these arguments and more will be made and rebutted. Success in the petition is far from assured and even then remedy may not look like what is being described in the best case scenario. The best long term solution for the Jazz pilots will not be found in the courts or tribunals. A section 35 filing will have just one proponent and at least three opponents. Every litigant believes they have a slam dunk case but reality is that legal success is less often achieved than failure.

Good luck to the Jazz pilots. The lesson of the past four decades is not to expect fairness therefore both strategy and expectations need to be managed and modified as necessary.

[truedude]

I thought the s. 35 application was in response to interfering with bargaining. Now it's an attempt to improve the viability of the airline?

Your jobs aren't going anywhere in 10 years. If Jazz can't staff the airline, AC won't find another CPA provider who can either.

But in a way they already have, or PAL wouldn't be doing any Tier 2 flying. And the 220 vs RJ economics are so close that RJs don't make a lot of sense anymore...

And yes, a s35 would be in response to their interference, with the goal of attempting to fix the problems impacting Jazz's ability to attract pilots. Not sure why that is a difficult concept to grasp.

[rudder]

I thought the s. 35 application was in response to interfering with bargaining. Now it's an attempt to improve the viability of the airline?

Your jobs aren't going anywhere in 10 years. If Jazz can't staff the airline, AC won't find another CPA provider who can either.

But in a way they already have, or PAL wouldn't be doing any Tier 2 flying. And the 220 vs RJ economics are so close that RJs don't make a lot of sense anymore...

And yes, a s35 would be in response to their interference, with the goal of attempting to fix the problems impacting Jazz's ability to attract pilots. Not sure why that is a difficult concept to grasp.

The economics of 220 vs RJ is not simply CASM (smaller gauge CASM will always exceed larger gauge CASM) but rather ‘trip cost’ and need-for-feed.
In most cases, substituting a single 137 seat frequency will be much cheaper than 2x76 seat. However, in some cases you will not achieve the same load factor on a single frequency vs two well timed frequencies. And you may also be sacrificing connection opportunities at the hub.

The largest deficiency at Jazz is planning a fleet of just 80 fins but spread across three equipment types, particularly two jet equipment types. It should be a single jet type (E175). One of the impediments to that is 10 year CRJ lease commitments entered in to by Jazz on behalf of AC which last until the 2030/2031 timeframe. I presume that the ownership of those airframes (and therefore the lease revenue) transferred to the new owners of CAC.

The business is changing. The market is changing. The operational plan (AC) is changing. And it was inevitable that a CPA that looks out over a decade would be revisited by the parties (as it always has been).

Therefore, the appropriate strategy would be to become involved in a multilateral discussion about these changes with a view to exchanging enforceable CBA entitlements which are impediments to that plan in exchange for achieving the objectives of the JAZ MEC strategic plan (job security/career progression/compensation/QOL). Jazz may have to become even smaller in order to be a better fit in the AC commercial plan. Exclusivity may only be preserved as it applies to regional jets. Express growth opportunities are more likely in the transborder market than domestic. Be a better alternative for AC than United Express via codeshare. Put YTS/YSB/YAM/YXU/YQG and the north shore of the St Lawrence river in the rear view mirror. Make the problem of cost of living in the GTA a PAL problem rather than exclusively a Jazz problem. Admit that Jazz has one too many pilot bases instead of protecting an inefficient status quo.

For those that would argue that those discussions just happened to no success, I would suggest it was not the proper forum. Likely that some parties may have been reticent to explore all potential outcomes for fear of prejudice or jeopardy. And any ‘Rob Peter to pay Paul’ proposal is doomed to failure. The proof is (thus far) lack of tangible results.

Don’t be surprised to see the future sale of Jazz. I could see the total unwinding of CHR just as ACE was unwound by divestitures. The AC connection to EIC via PAL would likely welcome the transfer of ownership (required under the change of control provisions of the CPA).

The other parties to this situation are not going to be standing still. Certainly there is awareness of a potential section 35 petition. Therefore contingency planning on behalf of the JAZ MEC should be given an elevated priority. The current gross (and public) dysfunction within the JAZ MEC does not portray strength and unity. The parties that the JAZ MEC are challenging are certainly well aware.

Without credibility there is no respect. And without respect there can be no meaningful discourse.

[goingnowherefast]

I guess the moral of the story is a union can't do much if your company's customer is being a tool. It doesn't have much to do with your customer's employees (ACA pilots).

Jazz management and AC management can be indifferent to their contract violations (flow and exclusivity). The union can't do much for management's apathy towards business contract violations. Unfortunately it does absolutely put the JAZ pilots in an awkward position. Their management made promises they couldn't keep and are unwilling/unable to rectify.

If management doesn't care about their business, or the company's future, vote with your feet. West coast, Encore is hiring. Ontario and east, Porter is hiring (and pays almost appropriately for basically a stretched regional jet).

[Fanblade]

For those that would argue that those discussions just happened to no success, I would suggest it was not the proper forum. Likely that some parties may have been reticent to explore all potential outcomes for fear of prejudice or jeopardy. And any ‘Rob Peter to pay Paul’ proposal is doomed to failure. The proof is (thus far) lack of tangible results.

This.

Negotiations between four parties all worried about jeopardy? That’s going nowhere fast. It’s bad enough when there is more than two parties. But you throw in threats perceived or otherwise. Done. A section 35 application being contemplated. Done.

I have always advocated that the proper place for any PML is within the ACA pilot contract. That way it’s enforceable with the employer that holds the cards. It isn’t realistic to expect to be able to hold AC accountable from the position of a contract with a subcontractor.


Fix it and be done with it.


Rule 1) The PML can’t impact current ACA pilots in any way.

Rule 2) All AC regional pilots included. Who knows what CPA start up is next or if one entity changes hands.

Rule3) The regional pilots negotiate the terms they want making sure they don’t violate Rule 1.

Rule 4) The PML is permanent.

ACA pilots negotiate the end result into their CA.

Suggestions regional pilots might want.

No PFO’s. If AC is concerned they can do Jazz hiring.

BOTL. All new hires outside the PML below that regardless of when a PML Pilot shows up.

Follow-ship of regional work if a CPA is terminated or moved.

Ability to bid on ACA equipment bids after the bid has run and before new hires are assigned positions.

My guess is Jazz and all regional carriers issues with hiring will evaporate overnight while giving regional pilots career progression certainty.

I believe this is what we should have done with the first PML. Instead the pilot groups let AC and Jazz negotiate the terms and duration. Then when the inevitable happened. You can’t trust AC. As expected as soon as it became “inconvenient” they walked away from their commitment to Jazz pilots, and left the Jazz pilots limited enforcement options.

And no. No one is really afraid of common employer. It’s not a stick anyone is overly concerned with. However wielding a stick of any kind will impede the necessary conversations.

[hithere]

While I agree with the concepts you propose, do you really think the ACA negotiating committee is going to use bargaining capital on your next contract to have a PML included in your CBA?

[Hangry]

While I agree with the concepts you propose, do you really think the ACA negotiating committee is going to use bargaining capital on your next contract to have a PML included in your CBA?

No. That’s unrealistic. I’m not afraid of s35. I don’t care at all about staffing issues at another company. That’s the corps concern. I wish AC realized such a program would benefit it. They don’t. Moving on.

[GIVCE!]

That’s one of the misconceptions, imo. Why does it have to be ‘ACA bargaining capital’? Air Canada should WANT this. A steady supply of trained ATPL pilots. Why are WE, union members fighting for this? It solves the pilot supply issues for BOTH Chorus and AC, and yes us lowly pilots’ career certainty. What a novel concept.

No one is coming to Jazz. Show me the ‘full ground schools’. There’s 15 FO’s on the Q400 list in Yyz and they want to expand the island flying by 400%. Within 6-12 months, if nothing changes at Jazz, we will not be able to staff even the minimum requirements of the CPA. Then what?

[Fanblade]

While I agree with the concepts you propose, do you really think the ACA negotiating committee is going to use bargaining capital on your next contract to have a PML included in your CBA?

Full disclosure. I’m an ACA pilot.

It depends on whether we want this solved or not. I am certain Rudder and I could work on a long list of damage to this profession this issue has produced over the last 3 decades.

We have had a decade of relative peace, but we at ACA are kidding ourselves if we think those negative consequences can’t or won’t reappear if we just sit on our hands and let the current environment ferment. Now, more junior ACA pilots who haven’t lived the history may not fully understand this.

This is the rub at its core. A pilot will not damage their career progression. In fact they will defend it tooth and nail. If you give a regional pilot a career progression to mainline? They will defend rather than harm that career progression. But a cornered regional pilot will bite everyone.

ACPA was ACPA first. Everything else last. We made a lot of short sighted decisions. At ALPA we are professional pilots first. ALPA pilots second and ACA pilots third. If something won’t hurt us but will improve the profession? We should do it.

There is much in this for AC as well. They need a regional. They may not need as large of one with the 220. But they still need one and it needs to be an attractive place to work. One free carrot for AC is making the regional network a pipeline to mainline. It’s currently not being utilized. In fact the opposite is true. It’s faster to AC from other places. That’s a fundamental error for an incentive that is free for AC to use.

There is a solution here. But it is not through litigation. It’s not through demands that would harm current ACA pilots.

The two groups have a cyclical history that needs breaking to produce results.

The first is that when Jazz pilots perceive they have the upper hand they stop negotiating and start demanding. Demanding things that will harm ACA pilots.
Second when ACA pilots perceive they have the upper hand they stop negotiating and just ignore the issue.

End result is a never ending cycle that doesn’t produce anything except slow simmering acrimony that has the very real potential to hurt everyone.

What we need is all that to stop. IMO both sides should commit to a process based on something like the basic framework I posted above.

Historically that isn’t what is going to happen though. Historically everyone is going to be reticent about the jeopardy of negotiations with a common employer application in the mix. That will take years to have a decision. It will produce little to nothing. When it’s done the ACA pilots anger over the common employer application will make them simply walk away. Basically a F U response.

Break the cycle. At the very least a truly authentic attempt at breaking the cycle should be made before yet another section 35 application.

Respect rule #1. “This is the way”

[rudder]

AC pilots do not have to use any negotiating capital. The party with ‘needs’ is the corp that needs reliable feed from one or more Canadian Tier II operators. The alternative is for AC to get back in to the business of operating 76 seat jets at the mainline.

The ‘ask’ from AC to the AC pilots will have to do with the seniority assignment provisions of the CBA. No, not a merger. But relief for a system that would see an Express pilot who should be in the next PIT course (and receive a corresponding seniority number on the AC pilot seniority list) that is ‘held back’ due to requirements of service and staffing at the Express operation. Think of an Express CA with an offer from AC who will be filling an RP or NB FO spot at mainline meanwhile Express has no qualified replacement for that departing CA. More easily solved by reserving that number and hiring OTS to fill the junior most position at mainline. This has been done in the past with the explicit concurrence of ACPA so it is not a reinvention of the wheel.

Other mechanics of flow (qualification/ratios/guarantees/etc) can be determined by AC/Jazz/JAZ ALPA. But as Fanblade pointed out - it should logically become part of the mainline CBA in order to validate enforceability. Perhaps even a mirror MOU/LOU that resides in both the mainline and Express CBA’s.

The reality here is that the mainline pilots have nothing to lose and no bargaining capital expended. In point of fact - mainline could dust off their long shopping list of CBA deficiencies and perhaps offer a quid pro quo for solving what is a corporate problem (Express reliability). And for the mainline pilots - the more reliable the feed network the greater the possibilities for mainline WB route expansion.

In any case, it has been nearly 40 years and likely seven or eight iterations of ‘flow’ with none having been sustained or withstanding the test of time. The ‘Global Solution’ initiative of 2003/2004 may have been the closest that the two pilot groups ever came to a durable solution which died on the political vine. It is not necessarily a template solution for revisited discussions, but it was an example of what can be achieved when you actually listen to the other party’s concerns and do not use the process to diminish your counterparty.

I wish everybody concerned luck. Until the system pilots start to view each other as allies not adversaries, they will continue to get played. And for situational awareness - the JAZ MEC had better start to recruit allies. You cannot be at war with everybody and expect to win.

[Fanblade]

AC pilots do not have to use any negotiating capital. The party with ‘needs’ is the corp that needs reliable feed from one or more Canadian Tier II operators. The alternative is for AC to get back in to the business of operating 76 seat jets at the mainline.

The ‘ask’ from AC to the AC pilots will have to do with the seniority assignment provisions of the CBA. No, not a merger. But relief for a system that would see an Express pilot who should be in the next PIT course (and receive a corresponding seniority number on the AC pilot seniority list) that is ‘held back’ due to requirements of service and staffing at the Express operation. Think of an Express CA with an offer from AC who will be filling an RP or NB FO spot at mainline meanwhile Express has no qualified replacement for that departing CA. More easily solved by reserving that number and hiring OTS to fill the junior most position at mainline. This has been done in the past with the explicit concurrence of ACPA so it is not a reinvention of the wheel.

Other mechanics of flow (qualification/ratios/guarantees/etc) can be determined by AC/Jazz/JAZ ALPA. But as Fanblade pointed out - it should logically become part of the mainline CBA in order to validate enforceability. Perhaps even a mirror MOU/LOU that resides in both the mainline and Express CBA’s.

The reality here is that the mainline pilots have nothing to lose and no bargaining capital expended. In point of fact - mainline could dust off their long shopping list of CBA deficiencies and perhaps offer a quid pro quo for solving what is a corporate problem (Express reliability). And for the mainline pilots - the more reliable the feed network the greater the possibilities for mainline WB route expansion.

In any case, it has been nearly 40 years and likely seven or eight iterations of ‘flow’ with none having been sustained or withstanding the test of time. The ‘Global Solution’ initiative of 2003/2004 may have been the closest that the two pilot groups ever came to a durable solution which died on the political vine. It is not necessarily a template solution for revisited discussions, but it was an example of what can be achieved when you actually listen to the other party’s concerns and do not use the process to diminish your counterparty.

I wish everybody concerned luck. Until the system pilots start to view each other as allies not adversaries, they will continue to get played. And for situational awareness - the JAZ MEC had better start to recruit allies. You cannot be at war with everybody and expect to win.

Plus 1000

[hithere]

Global solutions was a bankruptcy-era concept. With the failure of the ULP process, I don’t see anything short of, ironically ,a recession bringing the parties back to the table.

[truedude]

While I agree with the concepts you propose, do you really think the ACA negotiating committee is going to use bargaining capital on your next contract to have a PML included in your CBA?

Full disclosure. I’m an ACA pilot.

It depends on whether we want this solved or not. I am certain Rudder and I could work on a long list of damage to this profession this issue has produced over the last 3 decades.

We have had a decade of relative peace, but we at ACA are kidding ourselves if we think those negative consequences can’t or won’t reappear if we just sit on our hands and let the current environment ferment. Now, more junior ACA pilots who haven’t lived the history may not fully understand this.

This is the rub at its core. A pilot will not damage their career progression. In fact they will defend it tooth and nail. If you give a regional pilot a career progression to mainline? They will defend rather than harm that career progression. But a cornered regional pilot will bite everyone.

ACPA was ACPA first. Everything else last. We made a lot of short sighted decisions. At ALPA we are professional pilots first. ALPA pilots second and ACA pilots third. If something won’t hurt us but will improve the profession? We should do it.

There is much in this for AC as well. They need a regional. They may not need as large of one with the 220. But they still need one and it needs to be an attractive place to work. One free carrot for AC is making the regional network a pipeline to mainline. It’s currently not being utilized. In fact the opposite is true. It’s faster to AC from other places. That’s a fundamental error for an incentive that is free for AC to use.

There is a solution here. But it is not through litigation. It’s not through demands that would harm current ACA pilots.

The two groups have a cyclical history that needs breaking to produce results.

The first is that when Jazz pilots perceive they have the upper hand they stop negotiating and start demanding. Demanding things that will harm ACA pilots.
Second when ACA pilots perceive they have the upper hand they stop negotiating and just ignore the issue.

End result is a never ending cycle that doesn’t produce anything except slow simmering acrimony that has the very real potential to hurt everyone.

What we need is all that to stop. IMO both sides should commit to a process based on something like the basic framework I posted above.

Historically that isn’t what is going to happen though. Historically everyone is going to be reticent about the jeopardy of negotiations with a common employer application in the mix. That will take years to have a decision. It will produce little to nothing. When it’s done the ACA pilots anger over the common employer application will make them simply walk away. Basically a F U response.

Break the cycle. At the very least a truly authentic attempt at breaking the cycle should be made before yet another section 35 application.

Respect rule #1. “This is the way”

You forgot there still needs to be a sizable pay raise for regional pilots, as you assume everyone that comes to Jazz wants to go to AC, and that simply isn't a realty. So pay still needs to be part of the solution. And unless AC is prepared to pay, we go no where with talks.

My understanding, and it may be wrong as it is based on rumors more than anything, is what Jazz was prepared to agree to was essentially BOTL with layoff protections in DOH order, and it was refused by ACA. And that their general position was "what's in it for us." So if that is and remains their position, I don't see anything getting done by talking...

So again, be great if we arrive at a solution, but Pilots have not been good historically of playing well in the sandbox together. And then you still need AC to cough up money to fix other issues at Jazz, which they absolutely seem to have zero interest in doing. Which leads us right back to the same place, a s.35 being the only card left to play. Not because we want DOH at AC, but because it is the only card left to play.

Remember, most senior people at Jazz are still here by choice. Our preference is to remain separate, and prosper in the market we have historically done well in. But things have changed, and so has the pilots market, and AC was very slow, or simply unwilling to adapt. So here we are....

[Hangry]

While I agree with the concepts you propose, do you really think the ACA negotiating committee is going to use bargaining capital on your next contract to have a PML included in your CBA?

Full disclosure. I’m an ACA pilot.

It depends on whether we want this solved or not. I am certain Rudder and I could work on a long list of damage to this profession this issue has produced over the last 3 decades.

We have had a decade of relative peace, but we at ACA are kidding ourselves if we think those negative consequences can’t or won’t reappear if we just sit on our hands and let the current environment ferment. Now, more junior ACA pilots who haven’t lived the history may not fully understand this.

This is the rub at its core. A pilot will not damage their career progression. In fact they will defend it tooth and nail. If you give a regional pilot a career progression to mainline? They will defend rather than harm that career progression. But a cornered regional pilot will bite everyone.

ACPA was ACPA first. Everything else last. We made a lot of short sighted decisions. At ALPA we are professional pilots first. ALPA pilots second and ACA pilots third. If something won’t hurt us but will improve the profession? We should do it.

There is much in this for AC as well. They need a regional. They may not need as large of one with the 220. But they still need one and it needs to be an attractive place to work. One free carrot for AC is making the regional network a pipeline to mainline. It’s currently not being utilized. In fact the opposite is true. It’s faster to AC from other places. That’s a fundamental error for an incentive that is free for AC to use.

There is a solution here. But it is not through litigation. It’s not through demands that would harm current ACA pilots.

The two groups have a cyclical history that needs breaking to produce results.

The first is that when Jazz pilots perceive they have the upper hand they stop negotiating and start demanding. Demanding things that will harm ACA pilots.
Second when ACA pilots perceive they have the upper hand they stop negotiating and just ignore the issue.

End result is a never ending cycle that doesn’t produce anything except slow simmering acrimony that has the very real potential to hurt everyone.

What we need is all that to stop. IMO both sides should commit to a process based on something like the basic framework I posted above.

Historically that isn’t what is going to happen though. Historically everyone is going to be reticent about the jeopardy of negotiations with a common employer application in the mix. That will take years to have a decision. It will produce little to nothing. When it’s done the ACA pilots anger over the common employer application will make them simply walk away. Basically a F U response.

Break the cycle. At the very least a truly authentic attempt at breaking the cycle should be made before yet another section 35 application.

Respect rule #1. “This is the way”

You forgot there still needs to be a sizable pay raise for regional pilots, as you assume everyone that comes to Jazz wants to go to AC, and that simply isn't a realty. So pay still needs to be part of the solution. And unless AC is prepared to pay, we go no where with talks.

My understanding, and it may be wrong as it is based on rumors more than anything, is what Jazz was prepared to agree to was essentially BOTL with layoff protections in DOH order, and it was refused by ACA. And that their general position was "what's in it for us." So if that is and remains their position, I don't see anything getting done by talking...

So again, be great if we arrive at a solution, but Pilots have not been good historically of playing well in the sandbox together. And then you still need AC to cough up money to fix other issues at Jazz, which they absolutely seem to have zero interest in doing. Which leads us right back to the same place, a s.35 being the only card left to play. Not because we want DOH at AC, but because it is the only card left to play.

Remember, most senior people at Jazz are still here by choice. Our preference is to remain separate, and prosper in the market we have historically done well in. But things have changed, and so has the pilots market, and AC was very slow, or simply unwilling to adapt. So here we are....

Your union has stated multiple times s35 isn’t even remotely on the table. Time to start living in reality.

None of these pilot solutions will be implemented. None. The company will do what it wants. Like they always have. Again, reality.

We fly planes. We’re good at that. At least some of us. Mothercorp isn’t looking for your opinion. Nor do they care on any level.

Fly safe.

[truedude]

Full disclosure. I’m an ACA pilot.

It depends on whether we want this solved or not. I am certain Rudder and I could work on a long list of damage to this profession this issue has produced over the last 3 decades.

We have had a decade of relative peace, but we at ACA are kidding ourselves if we think those negative consequences can’t or won’t reappear if we just sit on our hands and let the current environment ferment. Now, more junior ACA pilots who haven’t lived the history may not fully understand this.

This is the rub at its core. A pilot will not damage their career progression. In fact they will defend it tooth and nail. If you give a regional pilot a career progression to mainline? They will defend rather than harm that career progression. But a cornered regional pilot will bite everyone.

ACPA was ACPA first. Everything else last. We made a lot of short sighted decisions. At ALPA we are professional pilots first. ALPA pilots second and ACA pilots third. If something won’t hurt us but will improve the profession? We should do it.

There is much in this for AC as well. They need a regional. They may not need as large of one with the 220. But they still need one and it needs to be an attractive place to work. One free carrot for AC is making the regional network a pipeline to mainline. It’s currently not being utilized. In fact the opposite is true. It’s faster to AC from other places. That’s a fundamental error for an incentive that is free for AC to use.

There is a solution here. But it is not through litigation. It’s not through demands that would harm current ACA pilots.

The two groups have a cyclical history that needs breaking to produce results.

The first is that when Jazz pilots perceive they have the upper hand they stop negotiating and start demanding. Demanding things that will harm ACA pilots.
Second when ACA pilots perceive they have the upper hand they stop negotiating and just ignore the issue.

End result is a never ending cycle that doesn’t produce anything except slow simmering acrimony that has the very real potential to hurt everyone.

What we need is all that to stop. IMO both sides should commit to a process based on something like the basic framework I posted above.

Historically that isn’t what is going to happen though. Historically everyone is going to be reticent about the jeopardy of negotiations with a common employer application in the mix. That will take years to have a decision. It will produce little to nothing. When it’s done the ACA pilots anger over the common employer application will make them simply walk away. Basically a F U response.

Break the cycle. At the very least a truly authentic attempt at breaking the cycle should be made before yet another section 35 application.

Respect rule #1. “This is the way”

You forgot there still needs to be a sizable pay raise for regional pilots, as you assume everyone that comes to Jazz wants to go to AC, and that simply isn't a realty. So pay still needs to be part of the solution. And unless AC is prepared to pay, we go no where with talks.

My understanding, and it may be wrong as it is based on rumors more than anything, is what Jazz was prepared to agree to was essentially BOTL with layoff protections in DOH order, and it was refused by ACA. And that their general position was "what's in it for us." So if that is and remains their position, I don't see anything getting done by talking...

So again, be great if we arrive at a solution, but Pilots have not been good historically of playing well in the sandbox together. And then you still need AC to cough up money to fix other issues at Jazz, which they absolutely seem to have zero interest in doing. Which leads us right back to the same place, a s.35 being the only card left to play. Not because we want DOH at AC, but because it is the only card left to play.

Remember, most senior people at Jazz are still here by choice. Our preference is to remain separate, and prosper in the market we have historically done well in. But things have changed, and so has the pilots market, and AC was very slow, or simply unwilling to adapt. So here we are....

Your union has stated multiple times s35 isn’t even remotely on the table. Time to start living in reality.

None of these pilot solutions will be implemented. None. The company will do what it wants. Like they always have. Again, reality.

We fly planes. We’re good at that. At least some of us. Mothercorp isn’t looking for your opinion. Nor do they care on any level.

Fly safe.

They have not said that at all. Where did you even come up with that idea? They have simply reiterated that it is the last resort, and isn't aimed at ACA, even though they know full well that is how it will be viewed. But they have never said it isn't on the table. In fact they have said quite the opposite, a number of times.

[Fanblade]

You forgot there still needs to be a sizable pay raise for regional pilots, as you assume everyone that comes to Jazz wants to go to AC, and that simply isn't a realty. So pay still needs to be part of the solution. And unless AC is prepared to pay, we go no where with talks.

Okay, that’s your group’s prerogative and you have every right to strategize as you see fit. However unless you get another 2023 opportunity, your next opportunity for a raise is 2035 and I doubt any A.35 application will be anything but slow as molasses. It will also stifle dialogue when the fastest way to a pay raise looks to be to go on to a better paying job. Whether that means Porter, WestJet, Transat or AC.

Good luck in your endeavours. I too believe you need a raise. But you are dealing with AC and you agreed to a long term contract.

And then you still need AC to cough up money to fix other issues at Jazz, which they absolutely seem to have zero interest in doing.

That is AC. Fairness has nothing to do with it. They have a deal with a decade left on it. They won’t budge unless absolutely forced. Even then the offer, like 2023, will be underwhelming. The only thing they respond to is a gun to their operation. Without the ability to strike you have no gun.

Which leads us right back to the same place, a s.35 being the only card left to play. Not because we want DOH at AC, but because it is the only card left to play.

I fail to see how that will increase pay, fix Jazz hiring and retention or address career progression. All I see is a long drawn out process that makes sure nothing changes at all. But again it’s your strategy.

The “what’s in it for me” comment is classic and has been played by both sides over the years repeatedly. Every time one group thinks they have the edge they lose interest in solving the issue or make demands that impede progress.

That cycle needs to be broken if this is ever to be solved.

[cdnavater]

You forgot there still needs to be a sizable pay raise for regional pilots, as you assume everyone that comes to Jazz wants to go to AC, and that simply isn't a realty. So pay still needs to be part of the solution. And unless AC is prepared to pay, we go no where with talks.

Okay, that’s your group’s prerogative and you have every right to strategize as you see fit. However unless you get another 2023 opportunity, your next opportunity for a raise is 2035 and I doubt any A.35 application will be anything but slow as molasses. It will also stifle dialogue when the fastest way to a pay raise looks to be to go on to a better paying job. Whether that means Porter, WestJet, Transat or AC.

Good luck in your endeavours. I too believe you need a raise. But you are dealing with AC and you agreed to a long term contract.

And then you still need AC to cough up money to fix other issues at Jazz, which they absolutely seem to have zero interest in doing.

That is AC. Fairness has nothing to do with it. They have a deal with a decade left on it. They won’t budge unless absolutely forced. Even then the offer, like 2023, will be underwhelming. The only thing they respond to is a gun to their operation. Without the ability to strike you have no gun.

Which leads us right back to the same place, a s.35 being the only card left to play. Not because we want DOH at AC, but because it is the only card left to play.

I fail to see how that will increase pay, fix Jazz hiring and retention or address career progression. All I see is a long drawn out process that makes sure nothing changes at all. But again it’s your strategy.

The “what’s in it for me” comment is classic and has been played by both sides over the years repeatedly. Every time one group thinks they have the edge they lose interest in solving the issue or make demands that impede progress.

That cycle needs to be broken if this is ever to be solved.

I believe it was 2022 that we(JAZMEC) agreed to a sizeable increase in pay and AC refused it, it was an agreement in principle, meaning bargained and all it needed was a ratification vote. This was done outside of normal bargaining, as you said we have an agreement until 2035, but it was agreed to. I don’t know why the ULP can’t force AC to make it right, I assume because they are not technically our employer, which is where the section 35 comes in.
Could a grievance hold Jazz to account, possibly and I’m sure that’s what the lawyers are looking at but all I want is the raise that was supposed to be and hopefully that makes Jazz more attractive to more experienced pilots, for that though I won’t hold my breath because AC has made sure that Jazz is a company without a future, no one wants to end up stuck here.
To make us more of a place to come and hang out until going to AC, there needs to be a guaranteed path and even better would be an accrual of seniority, so when they move they don’t start over.
For me, I don’t care about your list, so BOTL is fine but not if it means I could be bumped or flushed by an AC pilot that started yesterday. In a layoff situation affecting AC, it should be based on original DOH and fences from bumping down my list, otherwise it’s a non starter. Can’t have it both ways, you want layoffs to trickle down to Jazz then DOH with fences either direction.

[Fanblade]

For me, I don’t care about your list, so BOTL is fine but not if it means I could be bumped or flushed by an AC pilot that started yesterday. In a layoff situation affecting AC, it should be based on original DOH and fences from bumping down my list, otherwise it’s a non starter. Can’t have it both ways, you want layoffs to trickle down to Jazz then DOH with fences either direction.

I didn’t say anything about attaching the two lists. That is a big step all at once. By BOTL I simply mean a list of all regional pilots that AC draws on to hire. I was thinking baby steps and circling back to fix step 1. Maybe step one is enough. Maybe more isn’t needed.

Simply a better structured PML. Fix what should have happened with the original PML.

-Permanent
-Within the ACA contract for enforcement
-Ability to move to AC when you chose without seniority loss. ( Basically a frozen number.). We have already done this once.
-No PFOing
-Ability to bid on open positions after CMSC has run for mainline pilots. Give an individual the ability to control base assignment. Might take longer but you will likely be able to. Not perfect as YVR has been fully filled historically on some bids. But not all and not recently.

If AC gives a career progression to regional pilots that is better/faster/more certain than going to Porter, WestJet, Transat or Encore? Jazz’s hiring and retention issues are fixed immediately.

Let’s face it. The PML in place currently disincentivizes pilots going to Jazz. It’s in AC’s best interest to address it.

[altiplano]

PML type agreements ultimately put downward pressure on Jazz wages.

PML 1.0 ended up a mess with all the deferred seniority. Even ACPA learned the lesson, deferred seniority no more.

You had Jazz guys not deferring bitter that they were 100+ numbers behind an OTS guy joining on the same day, then later you had Jazz deferrals parachuting in on top of guys that had been here for 2 years. It's unfair for guys that joined and did their time with junior positions and schedules and bases to then be held back by intakes with reserved seniority dropping in above them. Everyone needs to be the same - You want a number at Air Canada? Get hired and you get it on day 1. Westjet did the same with Encore, no reserved seniority.

It's not on ACA to solve the mess that the companies have made for themselves with hiring at Jazz. Or JZA for that matter either, we let the companies make their problems into our problems.

[cdnavater]

For me, I don’t care about your list, so BOTL is fine but not if it means I could be bumped or flushed by an AC pilot that started yesterday. In a layoff situation affecting AC, it should be based on original DOH and fences from bumping down my list, otherwise it’s a non starter. Can’t have it both ways, you want layoffs to trickle down to Jazz then DOH with fences either direction.

I didn’t say anything about attaching the two lists. That is a big step all at once. By BOTL I simply mean a list of all regional pilots that AC draws on to hire. I was thinking baby steps and circling back to fix step 1. Maybe step one is enough. Maybe more isn’t needed.

Simply a better structured PML. Fix what should have happened with the original PML.

-Permanent
-Within the ACA contract for enforcement
-Ability to move to AC when you chose without seniority loss. ( Basically a frozen number.). We have already done this once.
-No PFOing
-Ability to bid on open positions after CMSC has run for mainline pilots. Give an individual the ability to control base assignment. Might take longer but you will likely be able to. Not perfect as YVR has been fully filled historically on some bids. But not all and not recently.

If AC gives a career progression to regional pilots that is better/faster/more certain than going to Porter, WestJet, Transat or Encore? Jazz’s hiring and retention issues are fixed immediately.

Let’s face it. The PML in place currently disincentivizes pilots going to Jazz. It’s in AC’s best interest to address it.

I like it! This seems like a perfect solution. I believe you might have the ability to propose your union explore this, I honestly believe CB would go for it.
Any chance you want to run for ACA president!
For guys like me who have no desire to do an initial course and just ride it out, that’s perfect and for those who want to move, it would work too.

For what it’s worth, I had heard that CB and your former President, were working on something like this and her being ousted changed the mood in the room when your new President took over.
I was asked in conversation with…. Well let’s keep that a secret but I was asked how I would feel about BOTL, it was a question posed to me when I asked how things were going in the ULP. When I probed more about that, I was told they were just curious, ie; a general question on how a senior Jazz pilot might react to that. So, I took that to mean it has been discussed but did not get any confirmation of that.
My reaction was, that’s fine as long as there is no way to bump or flush, so your above mentioned solution works for me just fine!