Does anyone know what the MEC is actually trying to get out of the ULP?

[Fanblade]

For what it’s worth, I had heard that CB and your former President, were working on something like this and her being ousted changed the mood in the room when your new President took over.

There has never been a more favourable opportunity to solve this than with the previous leadership.

Your MEC went the ULP route and started inferring possibly A.35. That spooked some members of the ACA MEC who don’t trust CB. It was this issue and the new contract combined that ended with her resignation. When the new contract came down she had already lost some support because of her stance on solving this issue.

Yes now it will be tougher. But trust can be restored. You might need different leadership though. I have nothing personal against CB. Don’t even understand why certain people have so little trust. But that’s politics. Around long enough, right or wrong, you carry political baggage.

[Fanblade]

PML type agreements ultimately put downward pressure on Jazz wages.

They absolutely can put downward pressure or Jazz wages if the employer is looking to extract wage concessions in exchange for a PML. Yes we have seen AC do this but it is not an absolute and the current environment is completely different. PML does not always equal lower wages. You just have to be careful it isn’t used that way.

PML 1.0 ended up a mess with all the deferred seniority. Even ACPA learned the lesson, deferred seniority no more.

You had Jazz guys not deferring bitter that they were 100+ numbers behind an OTS guy joining on the same day, then later you had Jazz deferrals parachuting in on top of guys that had been here for 2 years. It's unfair for guys that joined and did their time with junior positions and schedules and bases to then be held back by intakes with reserved seniority dropping in above them. Everyone needs to be the same - You want a number at Air Canada? Get hired and you get it on day 1. Westjet did the same with Encore, no reserved seniority.

Yes there are always pros and cons to everything. However without reserved numbers AC will not entertain a high percentage ratio PML. They too need the ability to staff and train based on operating needs. They won’t agree to something that vacates all the Captains at Jazz on mass.

The backlash by and large was because new hires were caught off guard. There are ways to be much more transparent.

Quite frankly, it isn’t just ACA pilots that contribute to Air Canada operations. AC regional pilots contribute to AC’s operation as well. I have never understood why that is so easily discounted. Discounted to the point their contribution is diminished to that of being equal to an off the street new hire? Really? Why can’t they have a perk or two over off the street. In fact it’s those perks that will make Jazz more attractive. Help drive Jazz hiring and retention.

And most importantly we avoid cornered Jazz pilots and the unpredictability that can produce.

It's not on ACA to solve the mess that the companies have made for themselves with hiring at Jazz. Or JZA for that matter either, we let the companies make their problems into our problems.

This is why, you as an AC pilot, want this solved. It can become our problem very quickly. Regional pilots backed into a corner bite. We have the history to prove it. We have the bite marks to prove it. We have had a decade of relative peace. Why? That peace was initiated on the original PML around 2014. But it won’t stay that way if career progression issues reemerge.

Do you not see the correlation between Jazz pilots feeling trapped and the Jazz MEC’s aggressiveness? 40 years this has been going on. We are potentially close to yet another flash point.

"Backing a dog into a corner" can refer to two very different things: a dangerous behavioral issue where a dog is forced into a state of fear that causes it to become aggressive. The phrase also exists as an idiom for a desperate or aggressive human reaction to being cornered in a difficult situation.

Behavioral issue
A dog will act this way when it feels trapped, threatened, and has no escape route.
This can lead to unpredictable, fierce, and defensive behavior like biting or snarling. Reasons for this behavior could include fear, anxiety or stress.

Idiomatic meaning
The idiom "backed into a corner" is used for humans in situations. The expression is used to describe a situation where someone feels trapped and may react in an unexpected or desperate way, similar to how a cornered animal might react.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Fan blade, I usually get where you’re coming from on most of your posts, but comparing Jazz pilots to an angry, cornered dog is a bit of a stretch. A tiny puppy with no teeth maybe.

The JAZ pilots have but one arrow left in their quiver, and it’s got an astronomical chance of gaining any traction. Unfortunately, they’re left on a sinking ship steered by a company who doesn’t seem to care that it’s sinking. I can understand their despair, I sympathize with their plight. But it’s an issue caused by their employer, and should be dealt with accordingly. It’s not the pilot’s job to run the airline.

[Fanblade]

Fan blade, I usually get where you’re coming from on most of your posts, but comparing Jazz pilots to an angry, cornered dog is a bit of a stretch. A tiny puppy with no teeth maybe.

The JAZ pilots have but one arrow left in their quiver, and it’s got an astronomical chance of gaining any traction. Unfortunately, they’re left on a sinking ship steered by a company who doesn’t seem to care that it’s sinking. I can understand their despair, I sympathize with their plight. But it’s an issue caused by their employer, and should be dealt with accordingly. It’s not the pilot’s job to run the airline.

No one said anything about running the airline.

This is a hypothetical based on historical events. It’s to respond to how dismissive your post is regarding the dangers of a cornered pilot group.

Remember a pilot with a career path to AC is unlikely to harm that path. A pilot with no career path to AC may decide to compete with you for work out of desperation or survival.

One thing we did not experience during the last round of bargaining was an orchestrated burning platform. That was actually unusual for AC.

How dangerous does this sound to you. About 6 months out from the current contract expiring.

AC goes to the Jazz MEC and offers them an aircraft that is a scope violation of our contract with the condition they fly it for market rates -20%.

Jazz, feeling desperate, signs an MOA accepting the lower than market rates for the aircraft. It’s actually a substantial raise for them.

The ACA MEC immediately grieves the scope violation. That will take a year or so. But now this issue becomes part of collective bargaining.

During bargaining AC uses this as leverage to extract lower wages.

After negotiations the Jazz MEC grieves as well because now the same aircraft are promised to both groups. Now the whole thing ends up in front of an arbitrator to decide. That arbitrator moves our scope line to accommodate a portion of those jets to Jazz.

20 ish years ago. Small jets arbitration that split the EMJ between AC and Jazz. The EMJ wage negatively impacted the A220 up until the last CBA. The wage impact was 20 years.

Remember. A regional pilot with a career path to AC is unlikely to harm that path and career. A cornered pilot may very well decide to compete with you. Competition between pilot groups leads to lower wages.

Don’t kid yourself if you think AC wouldn’t do this. AC has a history of playing us against each other and they will be looking for an angle to temper pay increases going into the next bargaining session.

Giving regional pilots a career path is not charity. It’s insurance that costs us nothing. If we regress 20 years we will all regret the missed opportunities.

So far we have 3-4 decades of missed opportunities.

As with anything our opinions and biases are formed through experience. My experience tells me solve this issue while you can, before it bites you again.

[altiplano]

I reject your scare tactics.

"If we don't give them what they want they are going to take our scope and flying."

Fück that.

"They are going to bite us."

Give me a break.

Come to AC and get a seniority number with the rest of your class when you join. That is the way. No reserved seniority, hell yeah same benefits for everyone joining on day one. ACPA already rejected reserved seniority in PML 2.0 and then the membership rejected reserved seniority again when the MEC at the time tried to put it in an MOA. The issue is done. Membership doesn't want it for good reason and the fact is that it's a negative for a the majority of new hires - who are also members - coming onto the property.

Jazz can't staff because there is competition for experienced pilots and they don't pay enough. It's not rocket science what the issue is. It's not ACA's problem to solve Jazz staffing issues but you're letting them make it your problem, and again it makes it the problem of the majority of new hires coming onto the property.

[Nick678]

I reject your scare tactics.

"If we don't give them what they want they are going to take our scope and flying."

Fück that.

"They are going to bite us."

Give me a break.

Come to AC and get a seniority number with the rest of your class when you join. That is the way. No reserved seniority, hell yeah same benefits for everyone joining on day one. ACPA already rejected reserved seniority in PML 2.0 and then the membership rejected reserved seniority again when the MEC at the time tried to put it in an MOA. The issue is done. Membership doesn't want it for good reason and the fact is that it's a negative for a the majority of new hires - who are also members - coming onto the property.

Jazz can't staff because there is competition for experienced pilots and they don't pay enough. It's not rocket science what the issue is. It's not ACA's problem to solve Jazz staffing issues but you're letting them make it your problem, and again it makes it the problem of the majority of new hires coming onto the property.

That MOA failed for many reasons, reserved seniority affected no one on property. That’s totals BS

[altiplano]

Right. It sells out the OTS people yet to come. People who will potentially work here for years only to get held down by someone else showing up for their first day.

We tried it and it was problematic. And again, anyone telling themselves this isn't about holding down Jazz wawcon is kidding themselves.

The companies are downloading their problems to the pilot groups. If Jazz can't hire experience to replace the attrition that they agreed to they better do something to attract it ie. raise the pay. It isn't ACA's or JZA's problem to figure out staffing for their airline. Like it seems Porter can staff all the growth on these EMJs, what's the problem at Jazz?

Look at US flow models, no reserved seniority, but guaranteed mainline interviews, etc. and those regional wawcons are all
sky high. I remember it wasn't that long ago JZA pilots were the highest paid regionals in NA. What happened?

Drop the gimmicks. You want mainline seniority, come to mainline and get a number with everyone else.

[Outlaw58]

PML type agreements ultimately put downward pressure on Jazz wages.

PML 1.0 ended up a mess with all the deferred seniority. Even ACPA learned the lesson, deferred seniority no more.

You had Jazz guys not deferring bitter that they were 100+ numbers behind an OTS guy joining on the same day, then later you had Jazz deferrals parachuting in on top of guys that had been here for 2 years. It's unfair for guys that joined and did their time with junior positions and schedules and bases to then be held back by intakes with reserved seniority dropping in above them. Everyone needs to be the same - You want a number at Air Canada? Get hired and you get it on day 1. Westjet did the same with Encore, no reserved seniority.

It's not on ACA to solve the mess that the companies have made for themselves with hiring at Jazz. Or JZA for that matter either, we let the companies make their problems into our problems.

Narrow view if you aske me.

There is an easy way to handle and implement a seniority solution and it is by honoring DOH, which could not be sooner than the implementation date. This would have the effect of instantly benefitting ALL Jazz pilots, without affecting one bit any ACA pilots already on property.

The only pilots affected by this would be those Air Canada hopefuls at other companies which IMHO have no skin in this game (at least not yet).

58

[PostmasterGeneral]

PML type agreements ultimately put downward pressure on Jazz wages.

PML 1.0 ended up a mess with all the deferred seniority. Even ACPA learned the lesson, deferred seniority no more.

You had Jazz guys not deferring bitter that they were 100+ numbers behind an OTS guy joining on the same day, then later you had Jazz deferrals parachuting in on top of guys that had been here for 2 years. It's unfair for guys that joined and did their time with junior positions and schedules and bases to then be held back by intakes with reserved seniority dropping in above them. Everyone needs to be the same - You want a number at Air Canada? Get hired and you get it on day 1. Westjet did the same with Encore, no reserved seniority.

It's not on ACA to solve the mess that the companies have made for themselves with hiring at Jazz. Or JZA for that matter either, we let the companies make their problems into our problems.

Narrow view if you aske me.

There is an easy way to handle and implement a seniority solution and it is by honoring DOH, which could not be sooner than the implementation date. This would have the effect of instantly benefitting ALL Jazz pilots, without affecting one bit any ACA pilots already on property.

The only pilots affected by this would be those Air Canada hopefuls at other companies which IMHO have no skin in this game (at least not yet).

58

Don't you want Jazz pilots to be remunerated properly? Stuff like you've suggested puts crazy downward pressure on the wages at Jazz, because people will go work there for garbage money, under the logic that "because I'll flow to AC, I'll make it up later."

The best thing to happen for Jazz pilots right now, is for Jazz to start parking airplanes due to lack of pilots. As short sighted as Jazz seems to be, maybe this is the only thing that will finally get them to raise their wages to get qualified guys through the door. Altiplano is 100% right. Nobody else in Canada seems to have problems staffing their operation, Jazz refuses to fix the problem that they've caused. Guys like the true dude will be quick to defend the very company that's screwing him under the guise that "AC refuses to pay more" but they're paying exactly what they owe Jazz for the CPA. It's Jazz who screwed the pooch bigtime here. They were stupid in locking in the CPA for as long as they did, at the rate that they did. Did their accountants not take into account inflation? Increased costs? Why not include a "re-opener" every few years with AC to revisit costs? Stupid.

Like I said, the Chorus coffers ain't exactly empty. The staffing issue is one they could easily fix, instead they choose to ignore it while the ship sinks and point fingers at AC.

[hithere]

Despite being locked into a long term contract, Jazz did receive fairly significant increase in compensation in 2023, due to the reasons you stated. The compensation increase was as much attributable to the reduction in benefit premiums as it was actually hourly pay rate increases.
Plus a little known fact is that there is a full wage re-opener in 2029(if the parties can’t agree to a new pay table at that time then it will go to binding arbitration).
While Jazz pay rates are still slightly higher than places like PAL(which fly aircraft at exactly the same seat capacity as Jazz), PAL can offer bases in Atlantic Canada where existing Captain qualified /ready candidates actually want to live and can afford to work, as opposed to being forced to live in YYZ/YUL/YVR or commuting. With the announced closure of the small flight attendant base in YHZ in early 2026, Jazz has basically handed the Atlantic province flying to PAL. Meanwhile the future of the Calgary pilot/FA base is very dubious.
The reasons for signing that long term contract have been explained/debated here ad nauseum. But truthfully that same long term deal is the only thing keeping Jazz afloat going forward. One could say the JAZ MEC should just let the company figure out its staffing problems. However it would appear the company is happy to plod along with its “guardrail” minimum 80 tail CPA guarantees post 2025. But it’s debatable if they can even staff the Captains required for that post 2025.It’s like the JAZ MEC are the only ones that give a shit about the future of this company. And good on them for trying to protect the future for its pilots when it seems like no one else does. The only other MEC trying harder to “save the company from itself” is Spirit, who are trying to exit bankruptcy protection

[truedude]

PML type agreements ultimately put downward pressure on Jazz wages.

PML 1.0 ended up a mess with all the deferred seniority. Even ACPA learned the lesson, deferred seniority no more.

You had Jazz guys not deferring bitter that they were 100+ numbers behind an OTS guy joining on the same day, then later you had Jazz deferrals parachuting in on top of guys that had been here for 2 years. It's unfair for guys that joined and did their time with junior positions and schedules and bases to then be held back by intakes with reserved seniority dropping in above them. Everyone needs to be the same - You want a number at Air Canada? Get hired and you get it on day 1. Westjet did the same with Encore, no reserved seniority.

It's not on ACA to solve the mess that the companies have made for themselves with hiring at Jazz. Or JZA for that matter either, we let the companies make their problems into our problems.

Narrow view if you aske me.

There is an easy way to handle and implement a seniority solution and it is by honoring DOH, which could not be sooner than the implementation date. This would have the effect of instantly benefitting ALL Jazz pilots, without affecting one bit any ACA pilots already on property.

The only pilots affected by this would be those Air Canada hopefuls at other companies which IMHO have no skin in this game (at least not yet).

58

Don't you want Jazz pilots to be remunerated properly? Stuff like you've suggested puts crazy downward pressure on the wages at Jazz, because people will go work there for garbage money, under the logic that "because I'll flow to AC, I'll make it up later."

The best thing to happen for Jazz pilots right now, is for Jazz to start parking airplanes due to lack of pilots. As short sighted as Jazz seems to be, maybe this is the only thing that will finally get them to raise their wages to get qualified guys through the door. Altiplano is 100% right. Nobody else in Canada seems to have problems staffing their operation, Jazz refuses to fix the problem that they've caused. Guys like the true dude will be quick to defend the very company that's screwing him under the guise that "AC refuses to pay more" but they're paying exactly what they owe Jazz for the CPA. It's Jazz who screwed the pooch bigtime here. They were stupid in locking in the CPA for as long as they did, at the rate that they did. Did their accountants not take into account inflation? Increased costs? Why not include a "re-opener" every few years with AC to revisit costs? Stupid.

Like I said, the Chorus coffers ain't exactly empty. The staffing issue is one they could easily fix, instead they choose to ignore it while the ship sinks and point fingers at AC.

The CPA is designed to ensure razer thin margins, to make sure there is never really any money for employees to try and go after. The real money is in the aircraft leases, which goes to Chorus. The business is structured this way deliberately. Wages are a flow through cost to AC, and any change to those wages require AC to sign off on it.

So it is ACs problem to fix, because they structured the CPA that way.

Increasingly, I see fewer and fewer options out of this if AC really wants to fix this. But they don't really seem to care, as they keep making money hand over fist. So maybe they just let it drag on.

Personally, I think the easiest would be to just buy Jazz, merge, slowly farm out the Qs to smaller operators, retire the RJs and call it a day. Because even if you had a flow through agreement that was giving you a number day 1 at Jazz, the money just isnt anywhere enough to attract those with time, along with the quality of life parts of Jazz.

And to reiterate, I don't want to work for AC. I would much rather see Jazz give a big pay raise to attract the pilots they need, and enjoy my days at Jazz. I have no desire to fly big airplanes, do red eyes, or any of that other stuff. So when I mention a s.35, it isn't a desire to leapfrog anyone, or achieve something through the backdoor, I just want to see AC held to account for their violations, and a long term solution found for Jazz.

[Inverted2]

Part of me thinks they are intentionally trying to run Jazz into the ground, or they are really that clueless. Minimal hiring as of late… $110/hr for starting CA pay. No one is going to come here for that. It’s really sad to see. Maybe they are trying to get the CPA voided and get out of it. I don’t know. The YTZ flying announcement: There’s only about 15 line Captains in YYZ. How do they plan to staff all that flying other than deadheading in pilots from other bases which is only a bandaid solution.