Bad training experience has made me question finishing

[lostav8r]

Hey everyone, I've had a lot of setbacks including being kicked out of a school, schools wait years long waitlists, block time sellers running away after getting my money, and the usual WX + MX issues.

I've been working on my ratings for 6 years now and I've hated every moment due to the factors I mentioned above. Everything has taken way longer than it should, to the point I've had check rides expire. I feel like I'd never want to quit a stable job to jump into an industry that seems to only be full of problems.

Has anyone else had a bad training experience but things turned around once you got a job?

Am I being silly or have all the bad experiences meant I should look elsewhere?

[Dias]

Not everyone is cut out for this. From the 100+ people that started my aviation college program around 20 people graduated. Of those less than 10 are still in the industry as pilots. Most of those people could be making more in other industries in my opinion.

[lostav8r]

Not everyone is cut out for this. From the 100+ people that started my aviation college program around 20 people graduated. Of those less than 10 are still in the industry as pilots. Most of those people could be making more in other industries in my opinion.

What happened to the 10 that left?

[digits_]

The only thing fun about flight training is the actual flying. Everything else around it can get quite frustrating.

You're paying a lot of money but are often treated as a nuisance by flight schools.

My initial PPL training was about 1 flight every month with a private instructor. The actual lessons were fine but he always had an excuse to cancel. I got fed up and told him I'd find someone else if things didn't improve.

For my instrument rating I ended up taking 4 am sim slots to avoid a similar experience and get it done. Promises of 'being done in x months' mean very little. Sometimes there are valid wx excuses. More often than not it's schools taking on more students than they can handle.

6 years seems extreme though. Are you limited to one location? Why would check rides expire? Where are you in your training?

[lostav8r]

The only thing fun about flight training is the actual flying. Everything else around it can get quite frustrating.

You're paying a lot of money but are often treated as a nuisance by flight schools.

My initial PPL training was about 1 flight every month with a private instructor. The actual lessons were fine but he always had an excuse to cancel. I got fed up and told him I'd find someone else if things didn't improve.

For my instrument rating I ended up taking 4 am sim slots to avoid a similar experience and get it done. Promises of 'being done in x months' mean very little. Sometimes there are valid wx excuses. More often than not it's schools taking on more students than they can handle.

6 years seems extreme though. Are you limited to one location? Why would check rides expire? Where are you in your training?

almost finished, I am partway through IFR, I had spent months in 2022 trying to get my CPL ride done before the Jan 2023 exemption expired, so I ended up doing a CPL twice effectively :/

Planes being broken for months and having to switch schools are a huge part of why it's taken so long.

[CpnCrunch]

What part of the country are you in?

[TalkingPie]

I can tell you that I'm in a very similar position. I started my PPL in late 2018 and am currently at a little over 300 hours with multi IFR and nearly done my CPL after spending over $100,000. I was also kicked out of a flight school. Stopped flying for a year because of a layoff during the pandemic. Have had trouble aligning work, weather, and flight school schedules.

Not flying regularly has made it difficult to gain confidence and proficiency. Despite not having yet busted an exam or check ride (multi-IFR was really close...), I'm constantly doubting my abilities, and my instructors, right or wrong, have done little to assuage those doubts.

I can't yet tell you how it'll work out for me, but maybe it'll help to hear that you're not the only one who's experiencing this.

[lostav8r]

What part of the country are you in?

Out east!

I can tell you that I'm in a very similar position. I started my PPL in late 2018 and am currently at a little over 300 hours with multi IFR and nearly done my CPL after spending over $100,000. I was also kicked out of a flight school. Stopped flying for a year because of a layoff during the pandemic. Have had trouble aligning work, weather, and flight school schedules.

Not flying regularly has made it difficult to gain confidence and proficiency. Despite not having yet busted an exam or check ride (multi-IFR was really close...), I'm constantly doubting my abilities, and my instructors, right or wrong, have done little to assuage those doubts.

I can't yet tell you how it'll work out for me, but maybe it'll help to hear that you're not the only one who's experiencing this.

What did you almost fail on your IFR ride?


Honestly if I hadn't have dumped so much money into it (and caused a lot of grief at work with days off, and projects on hold due to studying for exams) I would walk away.

[nine sixteenths]

I can tell you that I'm in a very similar position. I started my PPL in late 2018 and am currently at a little over 300 hours with multi IFR and nearly done my CPL after spending over $100,000. I was also kicked out of a flight school. Stopped flying for a year because of a layoff during the pandemic. Have had trouble aligning work, weather, and flight school schedules.

Not flying regularly has made it difficult to gain confidence and proficiency. Despite not having yet busted an exam or check ride (multi-IFR was really close...), I'm constantly doubting my abilities, and my instructors, right or wrong, have done little to assuage those doubts.

I can't yet tell you how it'll work out for me, but maybe it'll help to hear that you're not the only one who's experiencing this.

If you complete this, sit down and reflect heavily on the process, how you contributed to the issues leading to it being a 6 year process, and what you learned from it. These will likely be questions when you’re being interviewed for your first job, because 6 years to get licensed is a huge red flag as an employer.

[lostav8r]

I can tell you that I'm in a very similar position. I started my PPL in late 2018 and am currently at a little over 300 hours with multi IFR and nearly done my CPL after spending over $100,000. I was also kicked out of a flight school. Stopped flying for a year because of a layoff during the pandemic. Have had trouble aligning work, weather, and flight school schedules.

Not flying regularly has made it difficult to gain confidence and proficiency. Despite not having yet busted an exam or check ride (multi-IFR was really close...), I'm constantly doubting my abilities, and my instructors, right or wrong, have done little to assuage those doubts.

I can't yet tell you how it'll work out for me, but maybe it'll help to hear that you're not the only one who's experiencing this.

If you complete this, sit down and reflect heavily on the process, how you contributed to the issues leading to it being a 6 year process, and what you learned from it. These will likely be questions when you’re being interviewed for your first job, because 6 years to get licensed is a huge red flag as an employer.

Do they normally ask how long it took? I did it on the side and school waitlists plus bad wx are the reason things took so long. Doesn't seem like a red flag?

[nohojob]

I can tell you that I'm in a very similar position. I started my PPL in late 2018 and am currently at a little over 300 hours with multi IFR and nearly done my CPL after spending over $100,000. I was also kicked out of a flight school. Stopped flying for a year because of a layoff during the pandemic. Have had trouble aligning work, weather, and flight school schedules.

Not flying regularly has made it difficult to gain confidence and proficiency. Despite not having yet busted an exam or check ride (multi-IFR was really close...), I'm constantly doubting my abilities, and my instructors, right or wrong, have done little to assuage those doubts.

I can't yet tell you how it'll work out for me, but maybe it'll help to hear that you're not the only one who's experiencing this.

If you complete this, sit down and reflect heavily on the process, how you contributed to the issues leading to it being a 6 year process, and what you learned from it. These will likely be questions when you’re being interviewed for your first job, because 6 years to get licensed is a huge red flag as an employer.

Do they normally ask how long it took? I did it on the side and school waitlists plus bad wx are the reason things took so long. Doesn't seem like a red flag?

If you were doing it full time, it would be a red flag.
But in your case, certainly not.

[lostav8r]

If you complete this, sit down and reflect heavily on the process, how you contributed to the issues leading to it being a 6 year process, and what you learned from it. These will likely be questions when you’re being interviewed for your first job, because 6 years to get licensed is a huge red flag as an employer.

Do they normally ask how long it took? I did it on the side and school waitlists plus bad wx are the reason things took so long. Doesn't seem like a red flag?

If you were doing it full time, it would be a red flag.
But in your case, certainly not.

Thanks for clarifying! Full time at 6 years someone would probably have 1500 hours in the pattern at that point haha

[cdnavater]

I can tell you that I'm in a very similar position. I started my PPL in late 2018 and am currently at a little over 300 hours with multi IFR and nearly done my CPL after spending over $100,000. I was also kicked out of a flight school. Stopped flying for a year because of a layoff during the pandemic. Have had trouble aligning work, weather, and flight school schedules.

Not flying regularly has made it difficult to gain confidence and proficiency. Despite not having yet busted an exam or check ride (multi-IFR was really close...), I'm constantly doubting my abilities, and my instructors, right or wrong, have done little to assuage those doubts.

I can't yet tell you how it'll work out for me, but maybe it'll help to hear that you're not the only one who's experiencing this.

How do you get kicked out of a flight school?
What does it take for a school to say, “we don’t want your money”?

[Dry Guy]

That is how you know that they're the problem.

[5x5]

Not sure it’s always the school’s fault. I had a number of occasions where I had to have a pretty tough heart-to-heart with student’s who had spent various amounts of money and time, from not too much to quite a lot, on their training. The not so much were students who had started with us and just weren’t cut out to be pilots. The quite a lot ones were folks who had attended a number of schools and accumulated a rather large number of training hours before coming to us.

I would be straightforward with them in suggesting that perhaps flying wasn’t in the cards for them. It’s not a given that just because you want something you’re entitled to get it. Sometimes it was attitude, sometimes it was ability and most often a mix of the two. It was almost always initially met with anger or resentment, but occasionally with appreciation for getting an honest assessment.

However, flight training itself has developed into a process where you can, in fact, brute force your way through. And sometimes life is such that you can’t devote yourself to frequent training lessons and get through more quickly and less expensively. If that’s the case you have to accept that reality and realize that it’s going to take you a lot more money and many more hours because recency/currency is a major factor in how much time/money your training will take.

Everyone’s individual situation is unique however and self assessment is hard for all of us. Hopefully anyone who is facing the time/money challenge has access to someone they trust (and will listen to) who can give them some advice to help in making what is a very tough decision.

[nine sixteenths]

Do they normally ask how long it took? I did it on the side and school waitlists plus bad wx are the reason things took so long. Doesn't seem like a red flag?

If you were doing it full time, it would be a red flag.
But in your case, certainly not.

Thanks for clarifying! Full time at 6 years someone would probably have 1500 hours in the pattern at that point haha

Anyone taking 6 years is a red flag, but if you are explaining it was part time that’s better than “schools kept failing me”

[Daniel Cooper]

Honestly if I hadn't have dumped so much money into it (and caused a lot of grief at work with days off, and projects on hold due to studying for exams) I would walk away.

People have a tendency to continue an endeavor once an investment in money, effort, or time has been made. This is called Sunk Cost Fallacy. It can also be described as throwing good money after bad, or refusing to do what's described as cutting one's losses.

[Bede]

Not sure it’s always the school’s fault. I had a number of occasions where I had to have a pretty tough heart-to-heart with student’s who had spent various amounts of money and time, from not too much to quite a lot, on their training. The not so much were students who had started with us and just weren’t cut out to be pilots. The quite a lot ones were folks who had attended a number of schools and accumulated a rather large number of training hours before coming to us.

I would be straightforward with them in suggesting that perhaps flying wasn’t in the cards for them. It’s not a given that just because you want something you’re entitled to get it. Sometimes it was attitude, sometimes it was ability and most often a mix of the two. It was almost always initially met with anger or resentment, but occasionally with appreciation for getting an honest assessment.

However, flight training itself has developed into a process where you can, in fact, brute force your way through. And sometimes life is such that you can’t devote yourself to frequent training lessons and get through more quickly and less expensively. If that’s the case you have to accept that reality and realize that it’s going to take you a lot more money and many more hours because recency/currency is a major factor in how much time/money your training will take.

Everyone’s individual situation is unique however and self assessment is hard for all of us. Hopefully anyone who is facing the time/money challenge has access to someone they trust (and will listen to) who can give them some advice to help in making what is a very tough decision.

This post should be required reading for all instructors. Most endeavors aren't for everybody. Better people figure that out sooner than blowing a bunch of money just to wash out during their first job because their employer will only give them 3 hours to learn a new plane.

[lostav8r]

Not sure it’s always the school’s fault. I had a number of occasions where I had to have a pretty tough heart-to-heart with student’s who had spent various amounts of money and time, from not too much to quite a lot, on their training. The not so much were students who had started with us and just weren’t cut out to be pilots. The quite a lot ones were folks who had attended a number of schools and accumulated a rather large number of training hours before coming to us.

I would be straightforward with them in suggesting that perhaps flying wasn’t in the cards for them. It’s not a given that just because you want something you’re entitled to get it. Sometimes it was attitude, sometimes it was ability and most often a mix of the two. It was almost always initially met with anger or resentment, but occasionally with appreciation for getting an honest assessment.

However, flight training itself has developed into a process where you can, in fact, brute force your way through. And sometimes life is such that you can’t devote yourself to frequent training lessons and get through more quickly and less expensively. If that’s the case you have to accept that reality and realize that it’s going to take you a lot more money and many more hours because recency/currency is a major factor in how much time/money your training will take.

Everyone’s individual situation is unique however and self assessment is hard for all of us. Hopefully anyone who is facing the time/money challenge has access to someone they trust (and will listen to) who can give them some advice to help in making what is a very tough decision.

This post should be required reading for all instructors. Most endeavors aren't for everybody. Better people figure that out sooner than blowing a bunch of money just to wash out during their first job because their employer will only give them 3 hours to learn a new plane.

I know it's impossible to get actual numbers but how often does washing out on your first job happen? I feel like this place would be full of people complaining

[Dry Guy]

At my first commercial pilot job I'd estimate 10-20% of new FOs were asked to leave due to their lack of piloting skill. This is after working the ramp for a year while waiting for the spot and not flying.

[philaviate]

At my first commercial pilot job I'd estimate 10-20% of new FOs were asked to leave due to their lack of piloting skill. This is after working the ramp for a year while waiting for the spot and not flying.

Maybe having them work the ramp for a year and forgetting everything they learnt in their vast 10 or so multi hours is a stupid idea for the industry.......


Hey doc, congrats on med school. Now please go be a hospital cleaner for two years before you can see a patient.......
Passed the bar? Well done, go be a clerk at the motor vehicle registry for two years, then you can be a real grown up lawyer who paid his dues.......
Sounds silly eh?

[‘Bob’]

The real reason for ramp is cheap indentured labour.

And anyone knows that it’s all up to the trainer whether you pass or fail. I could sewer each and every one of you given the chance and I’m sure you could do the same to me. Whether it’s regs knowledge, obscure passages in the AFM or supplements, laser focus on instruments, or unfair emergencies (this isn’t a PPC).

I could pass almost anyone too depending on how desperate it is… the amount of times people have done single pilot in a two crew aircraft with a “project” is probably higher than most will admit.

They hire more people than there are spots for, and you can’t have people ramping forever or nobody will get their shot.

[Meatservo]

Taking six years to complete your training is NOT necessarily a red flag to employers. If any employer asks what took so long, you tell them you were chipping away at it part-time alongside having a full-time job and other adult obligations. And that would be if they even ask. I think I would find that question absurd. I don’t believe I have ever been asked “so how long did it take to complete your training?”

[digits_]

Taking six years to complete your training is NOT necessarily a red flag to employers. If any employer asks what took so long, you tell them you were chipping away at it part-time alongside having a full-time job and other adult obligations. And that would be if they even ask. I think I would find that question absurd. I don’t believe I have ever been asked “so how long did it take to complete your training?”

What he said. Took me a few years as well. Gradually chipping away at all the licenses. Nobody asked. I didn't even consider this could be considered 'bad'.

Think about it this way: some employers claim they like degrees, life experience and relevant non aviation experience. It takes time to acquire all that experience.

Now if you have a 6 year gap on your resume, 8 failed check rides, and 450 hours dual, then perhaps you might get a question or two.

[Red_Comet]

The real reason for ramp is cheap indentured labour.

And anyone knows that it’s all up to the trainer whether you pass or fail. I could sewer each and every one of you given the chance and I’m sure you could do the same to me. Whether it’s regs knowledge, obscure passages in the AFM or supplements, laser focus on instruments, or unfair emergencies (this isn’t a PPC).

I could pass almost anyone too depending on how desperate it is… the amount of times people have done single pilot in a two crew aircraft with a “project” is probably higher than most will admit.

They hire more people than there are spots for, and you can’t have people ramping forever or nobody will get their shot.

Exactly this. I've had examiners tell me frankly that the regs are written strictly enough that they could basically fail whoever they want. They are just deciding if you are safe enough to be a pilot. The objectivity is nonsense, and it is just down to finding an honest examiner with integrity who won't let everyone pass, but also won't fail a student just to get home early. I've seen both cases, and it explains why we have such a wide array of pilots buzzing around.