Poll: What is the most embarrassing aspect of the Air Canada pilot contract?

[thepoors]

Exactly. We can't allow it to take 3-4 bargaining cycles to achieve parity with US wawcon because by that time they will be that much further ahead of us. This "pattern" of gaining crumbs, and "let's get them next round" is its own problem and needs to be broken. ALPA has to actually take a stand and....dare I say it? ...Strike?

You do no favors to your credibility when you describe our last contract gains as "crumbs". It was the largest gain in Canadian aviation history. Was it enough? No.

So you want to go on strike because you think it will create a massive one time payday. Okay let's do that mental exercise.

Strike = Government intervention

Government intervention= arbitration.

Arbitration= comparitors within our border.

Results = Well if 2 Billion over 4 years is crumbs? Results on that scale? micro crumbs?

Now it will take 4-5 bargaining cycles to catch up.

Actually we have this movie still playing in theaters. If you think the FA's are demoralized now? Watch when they get the arbitration results.

That's fine. I agree we are likely screwed if we go to arbitration. We're in a lose-lose no matter how you look at it.

But you need to stop calling what's been going on pattern bargaining, that's a blatant falsehood and is also doing us a disservice.

Largest gain in Canadian history isn't the headline you think it is given the contract we were coming from. Garbage +40% is still unequivocally garbage.

[Dash.Trash]

Exactly. We can't allow it to take 3-4 bargaining cycles to achieve parity with US wawcon because by that time they will be that much further ahead of us. This "pattern" of gaining crumbs, and "let's get them next round" is its own problem and needs to be broken. ALPA has to actually take a stand and....dare I say it? ...Strike?

You do no favors to your credibility when you describe our last contract gains as "crumbs". It was the largest gain in Canadian aviation history. Was it enough? No.

So you want to go on strike because you think it will create a massive one time payday. Okay let's do that mental exercise.

Strike = Government intervention

Government intervention= arbitration.

Arbitration= comparitors within our border.

Results = Well if 2 Billion over 4 years is crumbs? Results on that scale? micro crumbs?

Now it will take 4-5 bargaining cycles to catch up.

Actually we have this movie still playing in theaters. If you think the FA's are demoralized now? Watch when they get the arbitration results.

You’re wasting your words with this guy, Fanblade. Clearly thepoors knows best, and all the intelligent people like yourself who have been around for decades and have seen all the highs and lows as well as seen the inner workings of successful union strategy, are all just too dumb to see his ideas are simply brilliant.

[thepoors]

Exactly. We can't allow it to take 3-4 bargaining cycles to achieve parity with US wawcon because by that time they will be that much further ahead of us. This "pattern" of gaining crumbs, and "let's get them next round" is its own problem and needs to be broken. ALPA has to actually take a stand and....dare I say it? ...Strike?

You do no favors to your credibility when you describe our last contract gains as "crumbs". It was the largest gain in Canadian aviation history. Was it enough? No.

So you want to go on strike because you think it will create a massive one time payday. Okay let's do that mental exercise.

Strike = Government intervention

Government intervention= arbitration.

Arbitration= comparitors within our border.

Results = Well if 2 Billion over 4 years is crumbs? Results on that scale? micro crumbs?

Now it will take 4-5 bargaining cycles to catch up.

Actually we have this movie still playing in theaters. If you think the FA's are demoralized now? Watch when they get the arbitration results.

You’re wasting your words with this guy, Fanblade. Clearly thepoors knows best, and all the intelligent people like yourself who have been around for decades and have seen all the highs and lows as well as seen the inner workings of successful union strategy, are all just too dumb to see his ideas are simply brilliant.

Right... so intelligent that you took concession after concession and ended up in a historically terrible 10 year contract under a corrupt union that sold you out. Brilliant, pat yourselves on the back. And now bless us with your infinite wisdom on how to go about clawing back everything you gave away.

[apestogetherstrong.]

Results = Well if 2 Billion over 4 years is crumbs? Results on that scale? micro crumbs?

Now it will take 4-5 bargaining cycles to catch up.

Actually we have this movie still playing in theaters. If you think the FA's are demoralized now? Watch when they get the arbitration results.

Fanblade,
What if it was not even close to 2 billion dollars...
Did anyone actually verify that number??

Let me save everyone some time. It is closer to half that. Slightly more than half. Costing is not hard these days with Excel and AI, but go figure it out yourself. You might be shocked.

And while we are at it, did anyone notice the hourly weight pay for the 737?!

How on earth does it come out to 93.4T when the 737 MAX is actually 82.2T?

Or was it because the negotiated pay was so bad, below WestJet 737 rates, that they had to scramble and literally inflate the gross weight just to avoid looking completely incompetent.

This is not pattern bargaining. This is doctoring the books. Frankly, it is borderline fraudulent and something I do not think we ever even saw at ACPA.

Another question for you: Was additional money made available to Air Transat after they ACTUALLY issued strike notice?

Follow up question:
Did ALPA National like that?
Were they keen on not striking?
And here is the big what if... What if Air Transat got more precisely because they put on their big boy pants, ignored ALPA costing bias, and refused to be scared away from striking?

Meanwhile AC pilots buckled. Turtled. And are now behind even Air Transat in many respects because of it.

And the last flaw in your fantasy, Fanblade, is this...
Air Canada does not care what Air Transat or Buffalo Joe Airlines negotiates. Their answer is always the same
If you do not like it here, go there!

They know they have the nicest widebodies, the best routes, and the best career prospects. They are the one big airline in town and they will happily abuse that monopsony unless you are willing to fight back...

Just like the Flight Attendants did. They defied Section 107, ran a smart public campaign, and had the government backtracking faster than an ALPA rep realizing he forgot his Marriott points at check in.

I know this bothers ALPA simps but this is what a real union looks like. Its uncomfortable but labour hasn't advanced against corporate greed while having the government in their back pockets without real, genuine union actions. This is a war that started during the industrial revolution and is about to get a whole lot more serious as AI pushes to make massive changes to labour markets and the working class.

Without real collective action, Air Canada pilots will continue to be a joke on the international stage.
We cannot even get electronic book offs, let alone a functional Trip Trade system.

Until there is a credible strike threat, including a willingness to push legal limits, this airline will never take this group seriously. And those are just facts.

[CPU2000]

Strike = Government intervention

Government intervention= arbitration.

Arbitration= comparitors within our border.

Honestly at how bad Air Canada pilots are at negotiating, arbitration doesn't even seem that bad.

We would get use the quality of life comparitors of WJ & Transat which would be massive improvements for our pilots. Can you imagine long call reserve, training outside of block, 1:3.75 TAFB, 100% Deadhead pay and 150% on Open Time? Might even get our bonus plan back!

Wouldn't even need to fudge up weight pay numbers!

[DanWEC]

Question is how many guys at AC would trade pay for QOL?
Can't underestimate the grip of money... it takes hold of everyone, and then it's never enough. You could predict perpetually trading away every last lifestyle aspect for a few extra bucks. Happens in every group in every industry.
It's fascinating that it's more likely for guys making 400k to want more cash, meanwhile the guys making 150k would fight for lifestyle. Human nature and not exclusive to airlines.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Question is how many guys at AC would trade pay for QOL?
Can't underestimate the grip of money... it takes hold of everyone, and then it's never enough. You could predict perpetually trading away every last lifestyle aspect for a few extra bucks. Happens in every group in every industry.
It's fascinating that it's more likely for guys making 400k to want more cash, meanwhile the guys making 150k would fight for lifestyle. Human nature and not exclusive to airlines.

Well a true "World Class Contract" would have both.

But instead, if the above post is true, this Air Canada MEC agreed to less pay then Westjet because that was the company's "final offer", so juggled the numbers around to make it appear like we "pattern bargained" and then got comical Quality of Life gains, that now can't even be implemented.

Result is industry worst quality of life with pay that is really barely above Westjet 737 rates.

I guess some more Blue Jays games will make it all OK.

[Nick678]

Question is how many guys at AC would trade pay for QOL?
Can't underestimate the grip of money... it takes hold of everyone, and then it's never enough. You could predict perpetually trading away every last lifestyle aspect for a few extra bucks. Happens in every group in every industry.
It's fascinating that it's more likely for guys making 400k to want more cash, meanwhile the guys making 150k would fight for lifestyle. Human nature and not exclusive to airlines.

Well a true "World Class Contract" would have both.

But instead, if the above post is true, this Air Canada MEC agreed to less pay then Westjet because that was the company's "final offer", so juggled the numbers around to make it appear like we "pattern bargained" and then got comical Quality of Life gains, that now can't even be implemented.

Result is industry worst quality of life with pay that is really barely above Westjet 737 rates.

I guess some more Blue Jays games will make it all OK.

“We’ll get em next time!” ALPA’s favourite phrase

[Fanblade]

Fanblade,
What if it was not even close to 2 billion dollars...
Did anyone actually verify that number??

Yes ALPA EF&A ran the numbers.

Let me save everyone some time. It is closer to half that. Slightly more than half. Costing is not hard these days with Excel and AI, but go figure it out yourself. You might be shocked.

Clearly you think your smarter than the pros that do this for a living. In fact ALPA E&FA is one of the most respected cost analysis sources in the industry. They wouldn’t put out BS under their name. They have a reputation to protect.

It’s so well respected for its expertise, E&FA's services are highly sought after by both ALPA and non-ALPA carriers, and its analyses are often relied upon by management and the National Mediation Board in negotiations

Google ALPA Economic and Financial Analysis

And while we are at it, did anyone notice the hourly weight pay for the 737?!

How on earth does it come out to 93.4T when the 737 MAX is actually 82.2T?

Or was it because the negotiated pay was so bad, below WestJet 737 rates, that they had to scramble and literally inflate the gross weight just to avoid looking completely incompetent.

I give you solid points for going into the appendix of the contract.

Yes I did notice. You have a problem with more money?

It’s not quite true pay grouping but it is close. Many other ALPA carriers pay group up. By that I mean they group aircraft types and then everyone gets paid the highest type.

This is not pattern bargaining. This is doctoring the books. Frankly, it is borderline fraudulent and something I do not think we ever even saw at ACPA.

Your claiming ALPA E&FA, one of the most respected analysis sources in the industry is fraudulent? I’m not even going to go near that kind of conspiracy mindedness.

Another question for you: Was additional money made available to Air Transat after they ACTUALLY issued strike notice?

No idea, I wasn’t there. Every negotiation is different.

Follow up question:
Did ALPA National like that?
Were they keen on not striking?

Let me be absolutely clear. ALPA does not interfere in any MEC’s decisions during negotiations. It was your MEC’s decision and their decision alone to strike a TA when they did. The MEC chair doesn’t vote except to break a tie. The MEC was split but was not tied.

This whole rumour that ALPA won’t strike seems to be stemming from the fact ALPA employs a SPSC strategy that creates leverage without going on strike. They have honed this skill because the railway act in the US makes striking unlikely. This by no means should be interpreted as they are not willing to strike. They are very willing if required.

And again, that decision is the MEC’s and the MEC’s alone. Whoever is spreading rumours that ALPA won’t permit strike is just full of it.

And here is the big what if... What if Air Transat got more precisely because they put on their big boy pants, ignored ALPA costing bias, and refused to be scared away from striking?

I think you need to be rescued from the rabbit hole your brain went down. You have decided that ALPA E&FA is fraudulent, that ALPA won’t let people strike. You have decided these things are facts when they aren’t. Then you’re taking it to a whole new level that the transat pilots saw through all this and got more as a result?

Again. Not touching this kind of stuff.

Meanwhile AC pilots buckled. Turtled. And are now behind even Air Transat in many respects because of it.

They leap frogged us in some areas and kept up in others. This is excellent. This is strategically important to have happen. You should be happy for them and happy for yourself. They just increased your next contract. Next WJ will hopefully do the same. That will be excellent as well.

Then it will be our turn to leap them.

And the last flaw in your fantasy, Fanblade, is this...
Air Canada does not care what Air Transat or Buffalo Joe Airlines negotiates. Their answer is always the same
If you do not like it here, go there!

Air Canada can say whatever it wants. But they know the landscape.

Air Canada has a long standing strategy of using government intervention as a strategy to hold us down. Government intervention equals arbitration. Arbitration equals comparison within our borders. We have been a single legacy carrier with no one matching us for decades. Until now. Now our domestic comparators are above us? An arbitrator won’t hold us down.

Essentially every other carrier that sets a high water mark means Air Canada’s strategy of government intervention gets diluted.

You want proof AC recognizes this? At the start of our negotiations Rousseau was asked what he thought was a fair deal. He stated WJ’s contract which at that point was 20-25% above our pay. The first time since pre merger with Canadian airlines this was the case. 25 years.

They know they have the nicest widebodies, the best routes, and the best career prospects. They are the one big airline in town and they will happily abuse that monopsony unless you are willing to fight back...

Just like the Flight Attendants did. They defied Section 107, ran a smart public campaign, and had the government backtracking faster than an ALPA rep realizing he forgot his Marriott points at check in.

Absolutely Air Canada will leave no stone unturned in its attempt to keep their pilot cost advantage alive. Absolutely we have to fight.

But we completely disagree on how to accomplish this. In our last round of bargaining we recovered our inflation losses all the way back to pre bankruptcy. They FA’s actually fell further behind.

Until there is a credible strike threat, including a willingness to push legal limits, this airline will never take this group seriously. And those are just facts.

You may be correct on this. Surprised I said this? I’m not strike averse. I believe there are better methods and a strike is the nuclear option. A nuclear option that in more cases than not provides poor results and gains.
However Air Canada isn’t currently changing direction on their employee relationship. In fact they are doubling down instead. I can absolutely see the potential for more strikes and industrial action before the c suite realizes their 1980’s tactics won’t work.

[Fanblade]

Strike = Government intervention

Government intervention= arbitration.

Arbitration= comparitors within our border.

Honestly at how bad Air Canada pilots are at negotiating, arbitration doesn't even seem that bad.

We would get use the quality of life comparitors of WJ & Transat which would be massive improvements for our pilots. Can you imagine long call reserve, training outside of block, 1:3.75 TAFB, 100% Deadhead pay and 150% on Open Time? Might even get our bonus plan back!

Wouldn't even need to fudge up weight pay numbers!

Arbitration would have likely ended with WJ’s pay scale and our QOL. Arbitrators don’t make big moves.

I would have preferred QOL improvements prioritized as well. This traditionally however has not been AC pilots priority when polled. This dates back decades and explains much of our contract. It’s always been money. Initially in these negotiations the polling showed money vs QOL pretty balanced. As negotiations progressed money became the central theme.

The MEC and Negotiations team is driven by the membership. If the membership says money? That is what will be targeted.

I wasn’t happy with the QOL improvements either. However I accept that, I DONT GET TO DECIDE, the membership does. I may not like the decision but that is too bad for me.

May I suggest people put more thought into polling leading up to and in negotiations.

[Fanblade]

Question is how many guys at AC would trade pay for QOL?
Can't underestimate the grip of money... it takes hold of everyone, and then it's never enough. You could predict perpetually trading away every last lifestyle aspect for a few extra bucks. Happens in every group in every industry.
It's fascinating that it's more likely for guys making 400k to want more cash, meanwhile the guys making 150k would fight for lifestyle. Human nature and not exclusive to airlines.

Yup.

Then after the contract is done you can’t find anyone that will admit that they prioritize money money money during polling.

Next time we poll. May I suggest we all place more value on “time”

Time at home. Time with family. Time for hobbies. Time is a currency we sell. It’s also a currency that can not be replenished

[Fanblade]

Right... so intelligent that you took concession after concession and ended up in a historically terrible 10 year contract under a corrupt union that sold you out. Brilliant, pat yourselves on the back. And now bless us with your infinite wisdom on how to go about clawing back everything you gave away.

Just because someone was involved in ACPA. Does not mean they agreed with ACPA. In fact one really needed to see the disfunction first hand to understand it. To eventually come to the conclusion it needed to be burned down rather than restructured. Most of us that were unhappy with ACPA initially got involved with the intent to improve outcomes. It was after the delusion set in that many either got frustrated and quit or were removed.

Many people, with decades at Air Canada, participated over years to implode ACPA. Now I say this not to diminish what new hires accomplished. ACPA would probably still be here without them. They were the primary driving force.

The people involved in ALPA today are not the people that supported ACPA. Senior or junior.

It was not until a group of pilots decided the only way to fix this was by taking over the MEC. That meant a long game. It meant elections and a long period of time between when the first change MEC member was elected and a majority was held. In this time frame yes the giveaways continued because the elected change people didn’t have the majority. The 10% cargo giveaway and best fit are good examples.

Once a majority was achieved on the MEC, ALPA was fast tracked. None of this was easy. There were setbacks. The time frame measured in years, not months. Air Canada fired someone on the MEC at one point to pull the balance of power away from change people. Elections were lost. Some ACPA MEC members tried to remove change MEC members from voting. It took time but perseverance paid off.

Many people made sacrifices over a long period of time to make this happen. All on their own time and sometimes on their own dime. I think the biggest sacrifices made were by those who had to survive on the MEC while waiting for a majority. It was no picnic.

[TFTMB heavy]

In general the most critical of a union have done 0 union work. If they put in some time into a committee or an elected position they would change their tune.

[Man_in_the_sky]

I think we all realized the company was more incline to sign a check than to improve our QOL items.

@#$! it, pay me. Even if we have the same travel benefits that a 18yr old who got hired by rouge and got their seniority #while we couldn’t even have a commercial licence, we’ll be able to pay our confirmed business while she rely on c1.

[apestogetherstrong.]

FanBlade,
that was quite the blitzkrieg of posts.

Hopefully you got a good deal on the methamphetamine.

Simple questions:

During negotiations, did Air Transat and ALPA National disagree on costing?
And if so, did that disagreement influence the strategy around issuing strike notice.
If you do not know, ask yourself this:

If it were true, would it matter.
Follow up.

Do you really think any organization should operate on blind faith when it comes to costing?

As in-> "trust me bro"

Why would independent auditing of the books ever be a bad thing?!

And zooming out.

Does a quarter century of not striking suggest a certain institutional motivation?

Namely, to avoid striking at almost any cost.
And if that is the case...
Wouldn’t higher costing numbers conveniently reduce pressure to ever pull that lever?

Just questions.

[altiplano]

How many accounts are you running?

apestogetherstrong.
apestogetherstrong
Apestogetherstrong

[CaptDukeNukem]

How many accounts are you running?

apestogetherstrong.
apestogetherstrong
Apestogetherstrong

Ya that was my first thought also.

Lay off the meth ape

[rudder]

Had an acquaintance send their year end payroll summary for 2025.

Take home pay? NB CA. Zero overtime. US$262,000. Does not live in a no-tax state.

p.s. add $74,000 in employer contributions to 401K (retirement).

[altiplano]

The eye opener is here...

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/majo ... urvey.html

[Hysteria]

The eye opener is here...

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/majo ... urvey.html

Here is a specific breakdown of year 12 AA MIA base 737 CA. If we’re talking net306/gross458…..At this bracket he lost about 33%. So he netted 67% of his gross. No state income tax in Florida of course. I’m a year 3 FO at a 705 and netted a lesser percentage of my gross.

[rudder]

Three observations can flow from this:

1. Factoring in gross pay less employee payroll deduction obligations then applying that net pay to living cost - a pilot in most jurisdictions of the US (possible exceptions being NYC and CA) will have purchasing power almost double a pilot in Canada (particularly YVR/YYZ/YUL). Good news for US pilots.

2. Factoring in all employer obligations to pilot payroll plus retirement and health contributions and applying currency exchange rates in place in 2025 - the pilot cost component of CASM for a US airline is almost double that of a CDN airline. Good news for CDN airlines.

3. Generally speaking - QOL (work related i.e. days not working per month) is demonstrably superior for US airline pilots resulting in higher levels of personal satisfaction owing to ability to participate on a more regular basis in individual and family activities. This promotes better mental and physical health, and generally lower absenteeism. Good news for both employee and employer.

For those that say “so leave for the US” - clearly an oversimplification. If the true bar for a CBA is the resulting pilot cost component of CASM, then there is certainly much more remaining space in Canada to move without relying on cheaper and more efficient pilot labour as a contributor to profitability.

It is much more likely that TS and AC would like to focus in pilot negotiations exclusively on WJ as ‘the competition’. But in reality the competition is much broader than that.

It will likely be 2027 before it will be known whether anybody will succeed in manifesting further real gains. However, planning for that should have commenced yesterday.

[ThrustIdle]

Good to see Transat pilots confidently vote in a TA without a MEC / propaganda team holding a gun to their heads with threats of resignations.

Shame on ACA MEC for what they did.

Hopefully the pilots are paying attention to how other airline pilot groups are getting things done with superior contract items and leadership.

[Dry Guy]

"There's no such thing as professional negotiators."

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