Anyone have any clue what the proposed SALARY SCALE LOOKS LIKE WITH THE NEW TA?

[Monocularpilot]

What does the FO and capt scale look like?

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Captain top $387k, FO top $238k.

[TFTMB heavy]

Someone posted the TA in the dumpster fire thread.

[khedrei]

Captain 100k raise

FO annual salary 85k

Pretty much what youd expect.

[Tbayer2021]

Captain 100k raise

FO annual salary 85k

Pretty much what youd expect.

I get your point, and agree that Jr FOs should be higher, but you're being misleading here. I looked at the pay scales in the summary and you're literally comparing a current top rate cpt to the same cpt at the end of the contract. Why don't you do the same with top rate FO to top rate at the end of th contract?

Or a more like-to-like comparison of Y1 FO under the old contract to Y1 FO under the TA vs Old contract Y1cpt to TA Y1cpt.

[khedrei]

Ok, will do.

Yr 1 fo old contract, not a living wage. A bit less than the average Canadian? Or there abouts...
Yr 1 fo new contract, still not a living wage. About average? Or there abouts...

Yr 12 ca old contract, very much a living wage. In fact, 4-5 times what the average Canadian makes
Yr 12 ca new contract, even more so a living wage, but now 6-7 times what the average Canadian makes.

The money was there to be distributed. Its clear who voted where it should go. New people not being able to afford rent and continuing to go into debt is ok for these guys because they will make it back later.

I dont have the exact old rates in front of me, but im pretty sure the yr 1 captains got about 100k as well.

[Tbayer2021]

Ok, will do.

Yr 1 fo old contract, not a living wage. A bit less than the average Canadian? Or there abouts...
Yr 1 fo new contract, still not a living wage. About average? Or there abouts...

Yr 12 ca old contract, very much a living wage. In fact, 4-5 times what the average Canadian makes
Yr 12 ca new contract, even more so a living wage, but now 6-7 times what the average Canadian makes.

The money was there to be distributed. Its clear who voted where it should go. New people not being able to afford rent and continuing to go into debt is ok for these guys because they will make it back later.

I dont have the exact old rates in front of me, but im pretty sure the yr 1 captains got about 100k as well.

I agree. My point was that if you're going to use hard numbers, at least do a proper comparison. And no, Y1 cpts didn't get a 100K raise, about 25K actually...... The big raise for captains is the fact that they now have YoS so no one will really see Y1 cpt pay. I'd assume they'd jump to Y4 to Y6 from what I hear upgrade times are there.

[khedrei]

Fair enough. I was off. I'm seeing a 38k raise for yr 1 based on the 2024 salary table for Yr1 captain. So no, not 100k. And unless I have the worng numbers, not 25k either.

[Tbayer2021]

Fair enough. I was off. I'm seeing a 38k raise for yr 1 based on the 2024 salary table for Yr1 captain. So no, not 100k. And unless I have the worng numbers, not 25k either.

I was off because I was looking at the hourly rate on the old contract. But looking at the old contract Y1 cpt at 187K vs 220K it seems we we both slightly off and its a 33K increase. But irrelevant at this point because no one will see that step.

[Localizer]

Ok, will do.

Yr 1 fo old contract, not a living wage. A bit less than the average Canadian? Or there abouts...
Yr 1 fo new contract, still not a living wage. About average? Or there abouts...

Yr 12 ca old contract, very much a living wage. In fact, 4-5 times what the average Canadian makes
Yr 12 ca new contract, even more so a living wage, but now 6-7 times what the average Canadian makes.

The money was there to be distributed. Its clear who voted where it should go. New people not being able to afford rent and continuing to go into debt is ok for these guys because they will make it back later.

I dont have the exact old rates in front of me, but im pretty sure the yr 1 captains got about 100k as well.

If you can’t live on $85K for a year, you’re doing something wrong. If you can’t live on the subsequent years in the contract, you’re doing something very wrong.

It might be time to get a financial check-up.

[khedrei]

Ok, will do.

Yr 1 fo old contract, not a living wage. A bit less than the average Canadian? Or there abouts...
Yr 1 fo new contract, still not a living wage. About average? Or there abouts...

Yr 12 ca old contract, very much a living wage. In fact, 4-5 times what the average Canadian makes
Yr 12 ca new contract, even more so a living wage, but now 6-7 times what the average Canadian makes.

The money was there to be distributed. Its clear who voted where it should go. New people not being able to afford rent and continuing to go into debt is ok for these guys because they will make it back later.

I dont have the exact old rates in front of me, but im pretty sure the yr 1 captains got about 100k as well.

If you can’t live on $85K for a year, you’re doing something wrong. If you can’t live on the subsequent years in the contract, you’re doing something very wrong.

It might be time to get a financial check-up.

Rent 36000
Decent used car payment, gas, insurance, repairs 12000
Utilities 3000
Cell phone 1200
Groceries 6000

Total 58200

85k minus taxes in Ontario is 63k. Im told TRZ has larger deductions than others. Supposed to be less given the new contract but let's say its still 2k per year. That leaves 61k.

So you have 2800 left at the end of the year to account for living the rest of your life. I hope you dont need to buy any furniture or clothing. I hope the dental and medical plan covers 100% and not just 80%. And god forbid a new pilot wants to go out to eat at a restaurant occasionally. Have fun with that. Saving money... no need. You'll have time for that later.

Im doing fine financially, but it appears you are the one that needs a financial check up. Or maybe just a basic math lesson.

[porcsord]

Rent 36000

36.... Thousand? 3 grand a month in rent? I'm no rocket surgeon, but that seems pretty high.

Decent used car payment, gas, insurance, repairs 12000

Again..... 1000 per month? You buying an old M3 and driving it like you stole it?

To someone's point above... If you can't live COMFORTABLY on 85k, you're doing something wrong.

Edit to add:

85k is over the median HOUSEHOLD income in canada - not individual.

[Localizer]

Ok, will do.

Yr 1 fo old contract, not a living wage. A bit less than the average Canadian? Or there abouts...
Yr 1 fo new contract, still not a living wage. About average? Or there abouts...

Yr 12 ca old contract, very much a living wage. In fact, 4-5 times what the average Canadian makes
Yr 12 ca new contract, even more so a living wage, but now 6-7 times what the average Canadian makes.

The money was there to be distributed. Its clear who voted where it should go. New people not being able to afford rent and continuing to go into debt is ok for these guys because they will make it back later.

I dont have the exact old rates in front of me, but im pretty sure the yr 1 captains got about 100k as well.

If you can’t live on $85K for a year, you’re doing something wrong. If you can’t live on the subsequent years in the contract, you’re doing something very wrong.

It might be time to get a financial check-up.

Rent 36000
Decent used car payment, gas, insurance, repairs 12000
Utilities 3000
Cell phone 1200
Groceries 6000

Total 58200

85k minus taxes in Ontario is 63k. Im told TRZ has larger deductions than others. Supposed to be less given the new contract but let's say its still 2k per year. That leaves 61k.

So you have 2800 left at the end of the year to account for living the rest of your life. I hope you dont need to buy any furniture or clothing. I hope the dental and medical plan covers 100% and not just 80%. And god forbid a new pilot wants to go out to eat at a restaurant occasionally. Have fun with that. Saving money... no need. You'll have time for that later.

Im doing fine financially, but it appears you are the one that needs a financial check up. Or maybe just a basic math lesson.

The entitlement is what gets me. Hearing you talk about needing to “live the rest of your life” ignores reality. Everyone struggles at the beginning—this is nothing new. Plenty of us started on $52K at TS, flat pay at AC, or similarly rough entry-level airline wages, and we made it work. You’re not being singled out, and you’re not special for going through that phase. This is how the industry has always been.

What has changed is the expectation that the rewards should come without putting in the same time and effort. Most of us did the work first. Complaining came later—if at all.

You won’t find much sympathy here.

[khedrei]

If you can’t live on $85K for a year, you’re doing something wrong. If you can’t live on the subsequent years in the contract, you’re doing something very wrong.

It might be time to get a financial check-up.

Rent 36000
Decent used car payment, gas, insurance, repairs 12000
Utilities 3000
Cell phone 1200
Groceries 6000

Total 58200

85k minus taxes in Ontario is 63k. Im told TRZ has larger deductions than others. Supposed to be less given the new contract but let's say its still 2k per year. That leaves 61k.

So you have 2800 left at the end of the year to account for living the rest of your life. I hope you dont need to buy any furniture or clothing. I hope the dental and medical plan covers 100% and not just 80%. And god forbid a new pilot wants to go out to eat at a restaurant occasionally. Have fun with that. Saving money... no need. You'll have time for that later.

Im doing fine financially, but it appears you are the one that needs a financial check up. Or maybe just a basic math lesson.

The entitlement is what gets me. Hearing you talk about needing to “live the rest of your life” ignores reality. Everyone struggles at the beginning—this is nothing new. Plenty of us started on $52K at TS, flat pay at AC, or similarly rough entry-level airline wages, and we made it work. You’re not being singled out, and you’re not special for going through that phase. This is how the industry has always been.

What has changed is the expectation that the rewards should come without putting in the same time and effort. Most of us did the work first. Complaining came later—if at all.

You won’t find much sympathy here.

Say that you think new pilots should have to suffer because you did without saying they should have to suffer because you did.

I bet you didnt make it work with 2k extra at the end of the year. I bet you worked a second job or went into debt.

My pint is that shouldn't be the case. It shouldn't have back then, and it shouldn't be now.

If you think thats the way it should be, there will be no convincing you. But dont say youre doing something wrong if you can't live on 85k. I just showed how you can't. If you have a second job, then you aren't making 85k. Either way, the math doesnt work.

[khedrei]

Rent 36000

36.... Thousand? 3 grand a month in rent? I'm no rocket surgeon, but that seems pretty high.

Decent used car payment, gas, insurance, repairs 12000

Again..... 1000 per month? You buying an old M3 and driving it like you stole it?

To someone's point above... If you can't live COMFORTABLY on 85k, you're doing something wrong.

Edit to add:

85k is over the median HOUSEHOLD income in canada - not individual.

Average 2 bedroom apartment in Toronto is between 2600 and 3200. I dont know what a rocket surgeon is, but you are living in the dark.

M3... yeah, dreaming.

Try 20k for a used car, finance for 5 years. About 450 per month. 200 per month on gas. 250 for insurance. 100 set aside for repairs.

Serious question. Where do you live and how much do you spend on a car in month.

The trouble with all these guys making 300k+, they are completely in the dark about what things cost.

You can live on 85k. But not comfortably. You can just get by. But just hope nothing expensive comes up in your life.

Edit:

Also not talking canada. Talking yyz.

[cdnavater]

Rent 36000

36.... Thousand? 3 grand a month in rent? I'm no rocket surgeon, but that seems pretty high.

Decent used car payment, gas, insurance, repairs 12000

Again..... 1000 per month? You buying an old M3 and driving it like you stole it?

To someone's point above... If you can't live COMFORTABLY on 85k, you're doing something wrong.

Edit to add:

85k is over the median HOUSEHOLD income in canada - not individual.

Average 2 bedroom apartment in Toronto is between 2600 and 3200. I dont know what a rocket surgeon is, but you are living in the dark.

M3... yeah, dreaming.

Try 20k for a used car, finance for 5 years. About 450 per month. 200 per month on gas. 250 for insurance. 100 set aside for repairs.

Serious question. Where do you live and how much do you spend on a car in month.

The trouble with all these guys making 300k+, they are completely in the dark about what things cost.

You can live on 85k. But not comfortably. You can just get by. But just hope nothing expensive comes up in your life.

Edit:

Also not talking canada. Talking yyz.

Seems you went with whatever AI told you was the average rent, let’s use something that is more accurate because I know how much I pay for a 2 bedroom suite right by the airport, it’s no where near 3000! 1750
If you absolutely need to rent a condo downtown, you will pay more, duh!

https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/professiona ... or-centres

Greater Toronto Area

Purpose-Built Rental Market
Vacancy Rate
3.0%

Average 2-Bedroom Rent
$2,034
Up by 3.5%
Condominium Apartment Market
Vacancy Rate
1.0%

Average 2-Bedroom Rent
$2,904

[redbusdriver]

Not to mention you can get a new Civic for less than 500/mth and no maintence, and 200/mth on gas? Where you going? 250 for insurance? guess if youre a bad driver

[Localizer]

The entitlement is what gets me. Hearing you talk about needing to “live the rest of your life” ignores reality. Everyone struggles at the beginning—this is nothing new. Plenty of us started on $52K at TS, flat pay at AC, or similarly rough entry-level airline wages, and we made it work. You’re not being singled out, and you’re not special for going through that phase. This is how the industry has always been.

What has changed is the expectation that the rewards should come without putting in the same time and effort. Most of us did the work first. Complaining came later—if at all.

You won’t find much sympathy here.

Say that you think new pilots should have to suffer because you did without saying they should have to suffer because you did.

I bet you didnt make it work with 2k extra at the end of the year. I bet you worked a second job or went into debt.

My pint is that shouldn't be the case. It shouldn't have back then, and it shouldn't be now.

If you think thats the way it should be, there will be no convincing you. But dont say youre doing something wrong if you can't live on 85k. I just showed how you can't. If you have a second job, then you aren't making 85k. Either way, the math doesnt work.

You live outside your means. It’s pretty simple.

We made it work—by living within our means, taking second jobs, or even going into debt when we had to. I wouldn’t call that suffering; I’d call it building character and resilience.

Two traits you clearly need to acquire.

[piperdriver]

Not to mention you can get a new Civic for less than 500/mth and no maintence, and 200/mth on gas? Where you going? 250 for insurance? guess if youre a bad driver

250 for Insurance doesn't seem that far fetched in my opinion for a driver in their 20's living in Brampton/Mississauga. Rates in these areas have increased significantly with the surge in auto theft post COVID.

[Core]

The entitlement is what gets me. Hearing you talk about needing to “live the rest of your life” ignores reality. Everyone struggles at the beginning—this is nothing new. Plenty of us started on $52K at TS, flat pay at AC, or similarly rough entry-level airline wages, and we made it work. You’re not being singled out, and you’re not special for going through that phase. This is how the industry has always been.

What has changed is the expectation that the rewards should come without putting in the same time and effort. Most of us did the work first. Complaining came later—if at all.

You won’t find much sympathy here.

Say that you think new pilots should have to suffer because you did without saying they should have to suffer because you did.

I bet you didnt make it work with 2k extra at the end of the year. I bet you worked a second job or went into debt.

My pint is that shouldn't be the case. It shouldn't have back then, and it shouldn't be now.

If you think thats the way it should be, there will be no convincing you. But dont say youre doing something wrong if you can't live on 85k. I just showed how you can't. If you have a second job, then you aren't making 85k. Either way, the math doesnt work.

You live outside your means. It’s pretty simple.

We made it work—by living within our means, taking second jobs, or even going into debt when we had to. I wouldn’t call that suffering; I’d call it building character and resilience.

Two traits you clearly need to acquire.

Second jobs??? Debt???

And the showstopper.... "We made it work".

WE'RE AIRLINE PILOTS, NOT F'ING NAVAJO DRIVERS.

Listen to yourself. Welcome to the reason we're the lowest paid in the world.

I invite you to quickly Google the $250k-$900k that hundreds of thousands of FO's and Capts make outside of our borders.

[Localizer]

Say that you think new pilots should have to suffer because you did without saying they should have to suffer because you did.

I bet you didnt make it work with 2k extra at the end of the year. I bet you worked a second job or went into debt.

My pint is that shouldn't be the case. It shouldn't have back then, and it shouldn't be now.

If you think thats the way it should be, there will be no convincing you. But dont say youre doing something wrong if you can't live on 85k. I just showed how you can't. If you have a second job, then you aren't making 85k. Either way, the math doesnt work.

You live outside your means. It’s pretty simple.

We made it work—by living within our means, taking second jobs, or even going into debt when we had to. I wouldn’t call that suffering; I’d call it building character and resilience.

Two traits you clearly need to acquire.

Second jobs??? Debt???

And the showstopper.... "We made it work".

WE'RE AIRLINE PILOTS, NOT F'ING NAVAJO DRIVERS.

Listen to yourself. Welcome to the reason we're the lowest paid in the world.

I invite you to quickly Google the $250k-$900k that hundreds of thousands of FO's and Capts make outside of our borders.

Why are you comparing what was to what is? The industry was different back then, and by most measures, it’s improved. The current pay scale is very respectable, all things considered.

If you can’t manage even a single year at $85K—with increases coming in May—that’s not a system problem, it’s a planning problem. Those were choices you made.

And if the solution is “just pay U.S. wages,” you’re welcome to take one of those jobs south of the border. There are plenty of reasons that model doesn’t, and won’t work here.

Food for thought: the average Canadian pre-tax family income (based on 3 people) is $97,170. Makes you wonder how they manage to make it work, doesn’t it?

[TFTMB heavy]

Say that you think new pilots should have to suffer because you did without saying they should have to suffer because you did.

I bet you didnt make it work with 2k extra at the end of the year. I bet you worked a second job or went into debt.

My pint is that shouldn't be the case. It shouldn't have back then, and it shouldn't be now.

If you think thats the way it should be, there will be no convincing you. But dont say youre doing something wrong if you can't live on 85k. I just showed how you can't. If you have a second job, then you aren't making 85k. Either way, the math doesnt work.

You live outside your means. It’s pretty simple.

We made it work—by living within our means, taking second jobs, or even going into debt when we had to. I wouldn’t call that suffering; I’d call it building character and resilience.

Two traits you clearly need to acquire.

Second jobs??? Debt???

And the showstopper.... "We made it work".

WE'RE AIRLINE PILOTS, NOT F'ING NAVAJO DRIVERS.

Listen to yourself. Welcome to the reason we're the lowest paid in the world.

I invite you to quickly Google the $250k-$900k that hundreds of thousands of FO's and Capts make outside of our borders.

You can use whatever numbers you want to prove your point and use caps like it will convince us but the reality is that some came off Dash jobs from PD at TS and have kids and make it work.

Lots are coming off of a Navajo or PC 12, not sure you find those candidates in the right seat in the US where you quote those salaries.