Anyone have any clue what the proposed SALARY SCALE LOOKS LIKE WITH THE NEW TA?

[Bede]

I'm Swiss. Zurich is more expensive than Toronto and Vancouver. My cousin lives in the sticks an hour from Zurich. She pays about the same for her place as the quoted numbers above for downtown Toronto (CHF3000). Ditto for London. Italy and Greece are cheaper. Not sure about Paris, Frankfurt, Berlin and Amsterdam.

When you're talking about living in smaller towns/cities where the cost of living is cheaper- absolutely you're correct, but some posters on this forum seem to think that the only place to live is downtown Toronto/Vancouver, hence the $3000/mo rent. Just trying to do the apples to apples thing.

Play around with this: https://www.paritydeals.com/ppp-calculator/
Take the salary from, say, BA and see what the cost of living conversion is Toronto --> London.

Pilots at Air France / KLM make the same money as Delta pilots if you take into account the exchange rate.

They also pay way more to live when you account for the exchange rate. You're taking the cost of living in Europe at face value and then taking their pay and converting to whatever.

Don't get me wrong, Europe is fantastic. I have a right to work in Europe. I've looked into it (particularly Swiss). It wasn't worth it for me. If it works for you, all the power to you.

[rudder]

Food for thought: the average Canadian pre-tax family income (based on 3 people) is $97,170. Makes you wonder how they manage to make it work, doesn’t it?

Just so it is apples-to-apples: let’s use the same income metric for the Greater Vancouver area, Greater Toronto area, and greater Montreal area (the AC pilot bases for new hire and year 1-4 pilots and include the only two remaining TS pilot bases).

A pilot should not have to commute by either air or ground (any drive to the airport over 2 hours is the same as commuting) in order to afford rent. And mandatory crash pads should similarly not be requisite. Commuting and crash pads should be a pilot lifestyle choice not a pilot inevitability.

From many of the posts in this thread it seems that management has already convinced many pilots that this is not a real area of concern. Thankfully, US airline pilots did not see it this way as well. They are not marginally ahead in starting pay - they are light years ahead. What a bunch of dummies…….

[kiaszceski]

Food for thought: the average Canadian pre-tax family income (based on 3 people) is $97,170. Makes you wonder how they manage to make it work, doesn’t it?

Just so it is apples-to-apples: let’s use the same income metric for the Greater Vancouver area, Greater Toronto area, and greater Montreal area (the AC pilot bases for new hire and year 1-4 pilots and include the only two remaining TS pilot bases).

A pilot should not have to commute by either air or ground (any drive to the airport over 2 hours is the same as commuting) in order to afford rent. And mandatory crash pads should similarly not be requisite. Commuting and crash pads should be a pilot lifestyle choice not a pilot inevitability.

From many of the posts in this thread it seems that management has already convinced many pilots that this is not a real area of concern. Thankfully, US airline pilots did not see it this way as well. They are not marginally ahead in starting pay - they are light years ahead. What a bunch of dummies…….

This ain't about management, it's those selfish, myopic Canadians fixated on their own asses, ignoring the team. They can't grasp that in a 20-30 year career, a small upfront sacrifice yields huge group wins far outweighing the loss.

This bullshit keeps happening, and it'll happen again with these lone-wolf morons.

[cdnavater]

Food for thought: the average Canadian pre-tax family income (based on 3 people) is $97,170. Makes you wonder how they manage to make it work, doesn’t it?

Just so it is apples-to-apples: let’s use the same income metric for the Greater Vancouver area, Greater Toronto area, and greater Montreal area (the AC pilot bases for new hire and year 1-4 pilots and include the only two remaining TS pilot bases).

A pilot should not have to commute by either air or ground (any drive to the airport over 2 hours is the same as commuting) in order to afford rent. And mandatory crash pads should similarly not be requisite. Commuting and crash pads should be a pilot lifestyle choice not a pilot inevitability.

From many of the posts in this thread it seems that management has already convinced many pilots that this is not a real area of concern. Thankfully, US airline pilots did not see it this way as well. They are not marginally ahead in starting pay - they are light years ahead. What a bunch of dummies…….

This ain't about management, it's those selfish, myopic Canadians fixated on their own asses, ignoring the team. They can't grasp that in a 20-30 year career, a small upfront sacrifice yields huge group wins far outweighing the loss.

This bullshit keeps happening, and it'll happen again with these lone-wolf morons.

Could you be more clear, your post could literally go either way, is the sacrifice a lower salary to start and long term payoff or a sacrifice at the top for the group to benefit long term?

[khedrei]

The entitlement is what gets me. Hearing you talk about needing to “live the rest of your life” ignores reality. Everyone struggles at the beginning—this is nothing new. Plenty of us started on $52K at TS, flat pay at AC, or similarly rough entry-level airline wages, and we made it work. You’re not being singled out, and you’re not special for going through that phase. This is how the industry has always been.

What has changed is the expectation that the rewards should come without putting in the same time and effort. Most of us did the work first. Complaining came later—if at all.

You won’t find much sympathy here.

Say that you think new pilots should have to suffer because you did without saying they should have to suffer because you did.

I bet you didnt make it work with 2k extra at the end of the year. I bet you worked a second job or went into debt.

My pint is that shouldn't be the case. It shouldn't have back then, and it shouldn't be now.

If you think thats the way it should be, there will be no convincing you. But dont say youre doing something wrong if you can't live on 85k. I just showed how you can't. If you have a second job, then you aren't making 85k. Either way, the math doesnt work.

You live outside your means. It’s pretty simple.

We made it work—by living within our means, taking second jobs, or even going into debt when we had to. I wouldn’t call that suffering; I’d call it building character and resilience.

Two traits you clearly need to acquire.

If you missed any of my posts in the past, ill refresh for you. Never lived outside my means in my life. Thats why I can afford to do petty much anything I want at 40. I could retire if I wanted. I'd have to sell the planes and the hangar, but I could still do it. And I've never made 200k in a year ever.

200 per month in gas is not a lot of money. I was being generous, its likely more.

250 for insurance in the Toronto area is about right. I have a clean record, no tickets or accidents and I pay 200. I was paying 125 but I got a new truck and its on the high theft list so they jacked it 1000 for the year. Thanks to the liberal crime policies.

You've proven you dont know what youre talking about.

And 500 per month for a new civic requires a hefty down payment. Dont lie.

[thepoors]

You live outside your means. It’s pretty simple.

We made it work—by living within our means, taking second jobs, or even going into debt when we had to. I wouldn’t call that suffering; I’d call it building character and resilience.

Two traits you clearly need to acquire.

Second jobs??? Debt???

And the showstopper.... "We made it work".

WE'RE AIRLINE PILOTS, NOT F'ING NAVAJO DRIVERS.

Listen to yourself. Welcome to the reason we're the lowest paid in the world.

I invite you to quickly Google the $250k-$900k that hundreds of thousands of FO's and Capts make outside of our borders.

Why are you comparing what was to what is? The industry was different back then, and by most measures, it’s improved. The current pay scale is very respectable, all things considered.

If you can’t manage even a single year at $85K—with increases coming in May—that’s not a system problem, it’s a planning problem. Those were choices you made.

And if the solution is “just pay U.S. wages,” you’re welcome to take one of those jobs south of the border. There are plenty of reasons that model doesn’t, and won’t work here.

Food for thought: the average Canadian pre-tax family income (based on 3 people) is $97,170. Makes you wonder how they manage to make it work, doesn’t it?

Record food bank usage which has doubled in the last 5 years and continues to rise at alarming rates. People literally can't feed their kids... That's how that median income is working for people, you ignorant swine. Wages are so far behind the cost of groceries, let alone everything else, it's not even funny. Step out of your bubble and look around, shit's falling apart. Idiots like you are the problem

[330heavy]

Ever notice the ones crying about Canada being 3rd world, can't live on sub $150k, aviation in Canada being akin to sewage workers, etc etc, are the ones who are the most toxic posters, likely poor pilots with poor CRM, and have noting better to do than troll, whine and bitch? Kinda like the woke leftists, maybe they're one in the same.

If you don't like aviation in Canada, you have 2 options. Become a union rep and inspire change (which IMO change is already happening and things improving) or GTFO, the life of flying planes isn't for you. But none of them will do that, rather just spewing garbage and shitting on everyone here, no wonder there is less and less pilots who come/visit, and post on avcanada.

Back on subject, majority of those I spoke with are happy with the TA, results on the 6th.

[twa22]

To steer things towards the original topic... any ideas on what the take home pay would be for YR 1 FO, after the new benefits package and different LTD options?

[DanWEC]

Nobody can possibly justify wages and COL ratios here, especially in the airline industry.

The last couple of years have been an absolute rocket to the moon with prices of life's necessities.

There is no argument of Canadian wage apologist that holds any water.

What is mind-blowing to me is that when compared to almost all of Europe, Canada is now the most expensive place we have layovers. We used to have perdiems that were substantially higher for EU destinations compared to CDN, now they're all the same- but really, we need slightly more to stay domestically.

Only exceptions are the traditionally expensive places like Switzerland, but, their average income is higher than ours, and their tax rendered services are drastically more comprehensive.

To even think about the fact we're splitting hairs over cost of living in places like Switzerland is utterly bonkers. We wouldn't have been mentioned in the same breath even several years ago.

I'm not trying to be insulting to any of our members here, but living here in our post-pandemic wage struggle feels like the prototypical frog in a pot, with the water slower being heated.
Some people are just not even noticing we're getting boiled.

[thepoors]

Ever notice the ones crying about Canada being 3rd world, can't live on sub $150k, aviation in Canada being akin to sewage workers, etc etc, are the ones who are the most toxic posters, likely poor pilots with poor CRM, and have noting better to do than troll, whine and bitch? Kinda like the woke leftists, maybe they're one in the same.

If you don't like aviation in Canada, you have 2 options. Become a union rep and inspire change (which IMO change is already happening and things improving) or GTFO, the life of flying planes isn't for you. But none of them will do that, rather just spewing garbage and shitting on everyone here, no wonder there is less and less pilots who come/visit, and post on avcanada.

Back on subject, majority of those I spoke with are happy with the TA, results on the 6th.

Hey boomer, newsflash: $150k is nothing more than entry level middle class these days and you sure as hell ain't buying a house anytime soon on that salary. You're farcically out of touch.

Better to bitch and be vocal about how we're being exploited than to make excuses for Canadian wages for the last 20 years and let this profession slip into the ditch it's in now. Great work.

Btw it's your peers who overwhelmingly voted for the woke Liberals to "stick it to Trump" while ignoring how they destroyed this country for the last 10 years, propped up on inflated real estate, third world slave labour, and suppressed wages. Again, nice job clown.

[330heavy]

Ever notice the ones crying about Canada being 3rd world, can't live on sub $150k, aviation in Canada being akin to sewage workers, etc etc, are the ones who are the most toxic posters, likely poor pilots with poor CRM, and have noting better to do than troll, whine and bitch? Kinda like the woke leftists, maybe they're one in the same.

If you don't like aviation in Canada, you have 2 options. Become a union rep and inspire change (which IMO change is already happening and things improving) or GTFO, the life of flying planes isn't for you. But none of them will do that, rather just spewing garbage and shitting on everyone here, no wonder there is less and less pilots who come/visit, and post on avcanada.

Back on subject, majority of those I spoke with are happy with the TA, results on the 6th.

Hey boomer, newsflash: $150k is nothing more than entry level middle class these days and you sure as hell ain't buying a house anytime soon on that salary. You're farcically out of touch.

Better to bitch and be vocal about how we're being exploited than to make excuses for Canadian wages for the last 20 years and let this profession slip into the ditch it's in now. Great work.

Btw it's your peers who overwhelmingly voted for the woke Liberals to "stick it to Trump" while ignoring how they destroyed this country for the last 10 years, propped up on inflated real estate, third world slave labour, and suppressed wages. Again, nice job clown.

Ladies and gentlemen, my point proven. Enjoy your bitter life poorguy. ALPA has peer and professional help services you have access to.

[thepoors]

Ever notice the ones crying about Canada being 3rd world, can't live on sub $150k, aviation in Canada being akin to sewage workers, etc etc, are the ones who are the most toxic posters, likely poor pilots with poor CRM, and have noting better to do than troll, whine and bitch? Kinda like the woke leftists, maybe they're one in the same.

If you don't like aviation in Canada, you have 2 options. Become a union rep and inspire change (which IMO change is already happening and things improving) or GTFO, the life of flying planes isn't for you. But none of them will do that, rather just spewing garbage and shitting on everyone here, no wonder there is less and less pilots who come/visit, and post on avcanada.

Back on subject, majority of those I spoke with are happy with the TA, results on the 6th.

Hey boomer, newsflash: $150k is nothing more than entry level middle class these days and you sure as hell ain't buying a house anytime soon on that salary. You're farcically out of touch.

Better to bitch and be vocal about how we're being exploited than to make excuses for Canadian wages for the last 20 years and let this profession slip into the ditch it's in now. Great work.

Btw it's your peers who overwhelmingly voted for the woke Liberals to "stick it to Trump" while ignoring how they destroyed this country for the last 10 years, propped up on inflated real estate, third world slave labour, and suppressed wages. Again, nice job clown.

Ladies and gentlemen, my point proven. Enjoy your bitter life poorguy. ALPA has peer and professional help services you have access to.

Only point proven is that all you have is the same tired old finger-wagging "suck it up or quit" bullshit that my generation has been hearing our whole careers and you're incapable of making anything resembling an intelligent argument. While we try to push for the betterment of this profession, you do nothing except try to cut down and degrade anyone advocating for improvement. Class act.

[unitatis super omnia]

Hey boomer, newsflash: $150k is nothing more than entry level middle class these days and you sure as hell ain't buying a house anytime soon on that salary. You're farcically out of touch.

Better to bitch and be vocal about how we're being exploited than to make excuses for Canadian wages for the last 20 years and let this profession slip into the ditch it's in now. Great work.

Btw it's your peers who overwhelmingly voted for the woke Liberals to "stick it to Trump" while ignoring how they destroyed this country for the last 10 years, propped up on inflated real estate, third world slave labour, and suppressed wages. Again, nice job clown.

Ladies and gentlemen, my point proven. Enjoy your bitter life poorguy. ALPA has peer and professional help services you have access to.

Only point proven is that all you have is the same tired old finger-wagging "suck it up or quit" bullshit that my generation has been hearing our whole careers and you're incapable of making anything resembling an intelligent argument. While we try to push for the betterment of this profession, you do nothing except try to cut down and degrade anyone advocating for improvement. Class act.

How delusional must someone be to believe that bitter attacks and endless complaining on an anonymous php bulletin board constitutes "pushing for the betterment of this profession"? It's remarkably arrogant to think that shouting vitriolic rants at other unknown users who don't agree with your rhetoric will produce anything beyond them simply logging off or blocking you. Tangible change requires focus, hard work and personal sacrifice. I'm sorry to say, but being a virtual reality warrior who fires wildly in all directions meets none of those definitions.

Also, it's a massive projection to accuse 330 of cutting down and degrading your advocacy while simultaneously lobbing toxic insults at ALPA, it's volunteers and the membership at every opportunity available. The pot calling the kettle black anyone? This contemptuous behavior is completely self-destructive.

If you want to effect change and produce results from the grassroots level, you could show face and attend an LEC or MEC meeting (open session only) where you can speak into the mic and address your reps and fellow members directly. Or you could draft a resolution for the membership and reps to consider. Finally if you want to step up further, you could run for an elected position or volunteer for a committee position. All of the these options are available to any member wishing to improve our profession and I for one would love to see you try.

p.s. Apologies to all TSC members who have to constantly read through the same complaints and drivel spilling over from the ACA board.

[Yellowbelly]

I echo Unitatis Super Omnia’s comments....

I apologize for the bleed over from AC pilots who remain understandably frustrated and angry with an ACA MEC leadership team that has demonstrated it cannot negotiate or implement a contract capable of leading the industry despite being the country’s lone legacy carrier and the largest pilot group.

If credible and effective leadership ever emerges these rumblings will subside. But given the current trajectory they are only going to grow louder as AC pilots approach negotiations especially with the same yes voting representatives who seem to believe they can somehow defy the definition of insanity and get a different result this time.

[330heavy]

No need to apologize, most of us here have friends or family at AC, so we know what it is, and who the ones throwing tempertantrums are. Unfortnately they don't realize the toxicity they spew doesn't help them in any regard.

End of the day, we are all family in the aviation world, and I know for a fact all of us here at Air Transat support Air Canada pilots (and that can be said for any other carrier, Westjet, Porter, Jazz, Flair, etc) and we know the same can be counted on them for us. And as jokinly on here "We'll get 'em next time", I truly belive that for the AC folks. Lessons have been learned and examples set. For now, the focus is getting that effective leadership and negotiating team in place. A few years from now will come quick for the next contract, and we'll stand with you.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

No need to apologize, most of us here have friends or family at AC, so we know what it is, and who the ones throwing tempertantrums are. Unfortnately they don't realize the toxicity they spew doesn't help them in any regard.

End of the day, we are all family in the aviation world, and I know for a fact all of us here at Air Transat support Air Canada pilots (and that can be said for any other carrier, Westjet, Porter, Jazz, Flair, etc) and we know the same can be counted on them for us. And as jokinly on here "We'll get 'em next time", I truly belive that for the AC folks. Lessons have been learned and examples set. For now, the focus is getting that effective leadership and negotiating team in place. A few years from now will come quick for the next contract, and we'll stand with you.

AC pilots’ contract expires next year. Hopefully we see new Reps for the next round, not the same weak yes voters. I would not be surprised if, with the same Reps, they agree to gains that do not even beat leisure or discount carriers, especially out of YUL. They would be scared to fight a wet pool noodle.

[Mr. North]

AC pilots’ contract expires next year. Hopefully we see new Reps for the next round, not the same weak yes voters. I would not be surprised if, with the same Reps, they agree to gains that do not even beat leisure or discount carriers, especially out of YUL. They would be scared to fight a wet pool noodle.

Newsflash, YUL reps were just re-elected for another 3 year term, and by a wide margin. Looks like the YUL members are happy so I guess you'll have to go peddle you discontent somewhere else.

[ACPA2.0]

AC pilots’ contract expires next year. Hopefully we see new Reps for the next round, not the same weak yes voters. I would not be surprised if, with the same Reps, they agree to gains that do not even beat leisure or discount carriers, especially out of YUL. They would be scared to fight a wet pool noodle.

Newsflash, YUL reps were just re-elected for another 3 year term, and by a wide margin. Looks like the YUL members are happy so I guess you'll have to go peddle you discontent somewhere else.

The previous pro ACPA, anti ALPA YUL reps never lost an election either...

They resigned after that disasterous MOA. In fact the whole LEC did.

ACPA2.0

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

AC pilots’ contract expires next year. Hopefully we see new Reps for the next round, not the same weak yes voters. I would not be surprised if, with the same Reps, they agree to gains that do not even beat leisure or discount carriers, especially out of YUL. They would be scared to fight a wet pool noodle.

Newsflash, YUL reps were just re-elected for another 3 year term, and by a wide margin. Looks like the YUL members are happy so I guess you'll have to go peddle you discontent somewhere else.

The previous pro ACPA, anti ALPA YUL reps never lost an election either...

They resigned after that disasterous MOA. In fact the whole LEC did.

ACPA2.0

Lol...so the threshold for competence in YUL is what you say...is low...

Definitely not expecting much from this group in 2027 besides maybe another "Group of 27" type shenanigans...

Will be happy to be wrong. Hopefully the Air Canada pilot union folks consult the broke ass leisure carrier for some tips since they can't seem to sort themselves out.

[Brakefans]

Can anyone shed some light on how much collective insurance / long term disability costs? I'm assuming if salaries have increased, LTD premiums have as well. What options are given?