NavCanada's stupid satelite ADSB mandate

[goingnowherefast]

This is what happens when you have very weak representation/ lobby groups in Canada. We get nothing in return. wx, pireps, notams for free in the US system are very helpful and increase safety exponentially.

COPA needs more members. Strength in numbers, and all that. It's not just for private weekend flyers. The last part stands for "Pilots Association", and that includes professional pilots.

[ragbagflyer]

To be clear, there is no mention in the CARs that requires you to install a Diversity system. It simply states that you need to meet the "performance standard" of 551.103. You can demonstrate this by completing a PAPPR request after a qualifying flight. If you pass, you pass, carry on and don't look back.

An avionics shop I work with suggested trying the following work around. Put your regular sole ADSB transponder antenna on the roof. There's enough aircraft flying around without antennas on the belly (flying boats), that it's already been proven that roof mounted antennas work quite well for transponders. They manage to work with ground stations due to the low angle from the roof antenna to the ground station until you're right on top of it, and by the time you are on top of it, close proximity works in your favour.

[BGH]

Too late for me - just updated our 185 & put in a Garmin 345 with diversity.
Mapping the antennas so it wouldn’t interfere with anything else took a bit of thought though,hasn’t even flown yet since the Garmin updates.

Daryl

[dodgeram2500]

I agree with the OP. The added features of the ground based system (mostly realtime wx) are nice. I also wish it were mandatory now...I've had my share of close calls while inspecting pipelines. I wonder if Canada will force US general aviation aircraft to have the space based system to enter the country or if there will be a work around....Lots of tourism/business dollars will be affected!

[goingnowherefast]

So far no signs of a work around for the small US aircraft entering Canada. A lot of the big stuff (biz jets) will already have diversity antennas for the oceanic requirements. NavCanada pretends to care, but they don't. They'll kick out US GA and not even acknowledge the loss of tourism and the harm to Canadian businesses serving the tourism and GA industries.

[boeingboy]

I agree with the OP. The added features of the ground based system (mostly realtime wx) are nice. I also wish it were mandatory now...I've had my share of close calls while inspecting pipelines. I wonder if Canada will force US general aviation aircraft to have the space based system to enter the country or if there will be a work around....Lots of tourism/business dollars will be affected!

...and here is the problem. ADSB is not real-time weather.....it is up to an hour old (for METAR - and up to 20 min or more for displayed). (XM weather is the same). I've read too many instances of pilots getting in trouble because they think it's real time and using it like a poor mans wx radar only to end up flying into something they can't deal with....or those thinking ADSB will show everything out there - until they have a mid air, or near miss because they are watching a screen instead of outside. ADSB can be a useful tool - but you need to recognize it's limitations. You might as well just get XM if you want weather that bad.

Space based diversity is the global standard...which is why they are doing that.

[goingnowherefast]

Space based is the gold standard for traffic ADS-B out. It's incapable of data in. Our neighbour and a large source of our GA traffic does ground based ADS-B with in and out. Canada and NavCanada has no plan on how to integrate their system with ours.

Unfortunately for us, the US customers will happily fly somewhere else and spend their tourist dollars there, instead of in Canada.

[digits_]

And the silly thing is, give Elon a few more years and we'll all be streaming HD Netflix in the plane via satellites while space based ADSB is counting bits and bytes trying not to get oversaturated.

[CaptDukeNukem]

And the silly thing is, give Elon a few more years and we'll all be streaming HD Netflix in the plane via satellites while space based ADSB is counting bits and bytes trying not to get oversaturated.

Already streaming HD Netflix on board. #porterwifi

[tazin river]

Morning folks and sorry for joining this thread so late…

I want to install a new transponder in our 180 and I now see this debate about adsb.

There are some decent deals on adsb OUT only transponder but before I go ahead with that, I am hearing that by 2028, transponders with the diversity option will be mandatory ie IN and OUT signals.

Is that so?

[philaviate]

Morning folks and sorry for joining this thread so late…

I want to install a new transponder in our 180 and I now see this debate about adsb.

There are some decent deals on adsb OUT only transponder but before I go ahead with that, I am hearing that by 2028, transponders with the diversity option will be mandatory ie IN and OUT signals.

Is that so?

My understanding is the diversity is not to do with IN and OUT, but UP and DOWN facing antennas.

My plane has diversity ADSB, but does not have ADSB IN. It just means the antenna works with both ground and satellite stations.

I might be wrong. But I believe that to be the case.

That said, get ADSB in if you can. It's very useful and will increase in usefulness as more planes get ADSB here.

[pelmet]

I didn't say it was nothing. I said you have the wrong hobby if you arent prepared to spend that.

This is the typical Canadian attitude.

I just finished a TSB report recently and the TSB wants recording devices in all private aircraft so that it will be easier for them to investigate. It never ends. The liberals/NDP keep on saying just a little bit more over and over. A luxury tax here, a carbon tax there, mandates everywhere. But hey....if you own a champ or are building a kitplane, you shouldn't have this hobby if you are not prepared to spend more in multiple ways.

[BGH]

When we were planning the update for our 185 I initially bought a Garmin 335 remote transponder but before it was installed a fellow I know in the industry suggested that I put the Garmin 345DR in so I had it ordered & installed instead.
I have more faith in my transponder track finding me than I do with the also installed at update 406 mhz elt.

Daryl

[Posthumane]

To be clear, there is no mention in the CARs that requires you to install a Diversity system. It simply states that you need to meet the "performance standard" of 551.103. You can demonstrate this by completing a PAPPR request after a qualifying flight. If you pass, you pass, carry on and don't look back.

An avionics shop I work with suggested trying the following work around. Put your regular sole ADSB transponder antenna on the roof. There's enough aircraft flying around without antennas on the belly (flying boats), that it's already been proven that roof mounted antennas work quite well for transponders. They manage to work with ground stations due to the low angle from the roof antenna to the ground station until you're right on top of it, and by the time you are on top of it, close proximity works in your favour.

I was told a similar thing by the owner of an avionics shop, only his technique was to install a roof and belly antenna and have them run through a toggle switch on the panel. If you're in an area where there are ground stations you can switch it to the belly antenna, and then if you're flying around somewhere other than the southernmost part of the country you can switch it to the upper antenna.

[OnceAgainWithFeeling]

A technical contact tells me that spaced-based ADSB is indeed different from ground-based.

Ground based transmissions only occur in response to a ping from a ground station. Space-based reception requires transmission in the blind.

So a system installed for ground-only operations, not intended for diversity operations, will simply fail to transmit in remote regions where no ground stations exist to trigger a response.

He says you cannot meet a diversity mandate just by moving the antenna; you need a different configuration in the transponder, at the least.

[Cessna 180]

A technical contact tells me that spaced-based ADSB is indeed different from ground-based.

Ground based transmissions only occur in response to a ping from a ground station. Space-based reception requires transmission in the blind.

So a system installed for ground-only operations, not intended for diversity operations, will simply fail to transmit in remote regions where no ground stations exist to trigger a response.

He says you cannot meet a diversity mandate just by moving the antenna; you need a different configuration in the transponder, at the least.

ADS-B doesn't require (or use) interrogation from a ground station like secondary surveillance radar. It's always transmitting your position when in altitude reporting mode.

[I WAS Pez]

A lot here in the last little bit-

1. ADS-B relies on spontaneous squitters generated by the aircraft/vehicle that is ADS-B equipped - it does not require active interrogation from ground or airborne sources. I believe the squitter recurrence rate is a little different on top and bottom antennas, but it's been a while, so don't quote me on that one - it's immaterial to pilots - ADS-B things spontaneously squitter out their position and some other data at a fairly high rate.

2. ADS-B "IN" and "OUT" refers to transmitting or receiving - from the point of view of a typical aircraft, ADS-B "OUT" means you're transmitting your position. ADS-B "IN" means you can receive data via ADS-B...usually traffic, possibly other data like wx, for display on a cockpit screen, iPad, use with traffic system, etc.

2. There are 2x ADS-B "link" types. 1090ES (Extended Squitter) is what is in use worldwide everywhere that has ground stations (except the US, which uses 1090ES and 978/UAT), as well as for satellite based ADS-B. ADS-B 1090ES is the evolution of your mode S transponder - an ADS-B 1090ES "OUT" system IS a mode S transponder that adds position data, etc to the squitters it sends. It's still a transponder and will respond to mode C/S interrogations from ATC radars and traffic systems normally.

3. ADS-B 978/UAT is a US-only thing. It is totally different from ADS-B 1090ES, and is not an evolution of mode S transponder technology. It squitters out its position just like 1090ES, but can also be used to receive data from ground stations (again, US only, FAA only)... Ground station data is basically weather/aviation data - radar, METARs, TAFs, NOTAMs, etc - which is awesome. Trouble is, it's US-only. Also, if you have a 978 OUT aircraft, no 1090ES standards based aircraft, satellite, ground station will receive your position transmissions. 978 "OUT" does not replace your transponder (with the exception of one weird unit which is essentially a mode C transponder + 978 out in a box...) 978 is a totally separate unit that runs alongside your legacy mode C or S transponder. Typically, these listen for the squawk code being broadcast from the same plane, very close to the ADS-B unit (or are installed in line with the antenna), and then sync their code to the same thing. These require maintaining a legacy transponder, instead of moving to a modern, digital 1090ES OUT/mode S transponder.

4. ADS-B "IN" is great, for two reasons; 1. it's a poor man's TCAS- most (but not all) modern ADS-B "IN" systems receive both 1090ES and 978 link types - these receivers can be built into the aircraft or be portable, and most will display traffic on aircraft displays and also an iPad or similar. Think moving map with very good traffic display. 2. IF in the US or close by, you have access to received wx and aeronautical data

5. Traffic awareness and ADS-B - having ADS-B "IN" in a world where everyone has ADS-B "OUT" is amazing -you get a fairly complete electronic traffic picture plotted in ForeFlight or an MFD or some such. ****The important caveat here is that in a world where some aircraft are mode C or S only, you will NOT see those aircraft at all on ADS-B**** The only way to see mode C/S aircraft electronically is with TCAS or TAS active traffic systems like a Garmin GTS 800, L3 SkyWatch, NGT-9000, etc. This is an important point as I'm seeing and hearing more and more folks in Canada with ADS-B in (only) thinking they can see everything else in the sky electronically. This is NOT the case. Of course, none of this will show the bush or ag guy who doesn't turn his transponder on and thinks turning on strobes to light oneself up like a christmas tree is for wusses..... So yeah, VFR, eyes outside of course, but electronic traffic awareness systems (especially active traffic coupled with ADS-B dual link "IN" are awesome - I don't like flying without them any more...)

[Helno]

3. ADS-B 978/UAT is a US-only thing. It is totally different from ADS-B 1090ES, and is not an evolution of mode S transponder technology. It squitters out its position just like 1090ES, but can also be used to receive data from ground stations (again, US only, FAA only)... Ground station data is basically weather/aviation data - radar, METARs, TAFs, NOTAMs, etc - which is awesome. Trouble is, it's US-only.

There actually is a system to broadcast weather and traffic data over 978/UAT in Canada.

https://cifib.ca/

We have been running our first transmit site since 2021 and are up to 13 currently running. The coverage in southwestern Ontario is pretty good and it gets better the more site we have. This is an all volunteer and not for profit effort so we expand as fast as we can make hardware and find site partners to host and pay for operation of the sites.

Since we do not have access to mode-c targets we use the TIS-B to broadcast as much ADS-B like data that we can. So things like FLARM, NemoScout, OGN, etc will all show up as UAT traffic targets. A large number of flight schools have NemoScout devices for tracking and they all appear.

Here are some pictures from a flight in November. Most of the traffic seen is coming from the CIFIB site at Stratford rather than direct air to air. The ratio was around 8:1.

https://helno.ca/image/cJb

https://helno.ca/image/cML

[tazin river]

Thanks Folks

Will the ADSB in and out capability be mandatory in northern Canada (NWT) in 2028 or earlier for small float plane? ADSB OUT only be ok? I hear different verdicts....

Cheers

[philaviate]

Thanks Folks

Will the ADSB in and out capability be mandatory in northern Canada (NWT) in 2028 or earlier for small float plane? ADSB OUT only be ok? I hear different verdicts....

Cheers

Where are you seeing adsb in is mandatory anywhere?

[BGH]

Not sure whether this will help,or just confuse things:

https://www.navcanada.ca/en/air-traffic ... ments.aspx

Daryl

[tazin river]

Thank you so much Daryl

It sure helps me !