The whole degree vs no degree problem has its roots in the military - to fly you have to be an officer - to be an officer as far as I know you need a degree. How does having a degree make you a better officer? It takes its roots in a class based system which the military is still stuck in. The rich get to be officers. Now you might say that anyone who puts their minds to it can get a degree. Au contraire. Have you seen how much university costs these days? The money aquired by a student loan doesn't even cover the half of it. Where do you think the extra cash comes from?Now put this in terms of most budding pilots today. You spend $30-$40,000 on your CPL Multi IFR etc. Who among them now has an additional like cost to get a degree? Most colleges as well offer the same courses as universities in terms of calculus, physics, business, etc. But a university dregree is far more prestigious as a college diploma. If you've ever been to a university you'll probably see that 90% don't know what they're going to major in. The rest are probably career students. Most of them don't even work in the fields that they majored them. Yet this degree now qualifies someone a for a better position in the military? Worse yet the airlines - guess where most of the people who started up them came from - follows the same model.
The fact is most of us can't afford to go to university and enter the real world of work. And for some reason work experience is valued less than class room time in the business. Like I said: class based system.
GETTING AN EDUCATION
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Shiny Side Up
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shitdisturber
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I find it rather amusing, maybe frightening is a better word, that most of those defending higher education/degrees; can't spell and have rather poor grammar. The next thing somebody is going to say is, "my degree is in science, engineering, whatever; english wasn't a course requirement." That in itself is part of what's wrong with universities today. They collect their forty or fifty thousand dollars to push through some clown, who can't function in his mother tongue! Am I the only one who finds this disturbing?
As for the question, "how did I classify some of these engineers as Grade A morons?" It was fairly simple really; it came from watching these engineers working in their own area of expertise, have to be led around by the nose by a technician (with a high school education I might add) so the job could be finished correctly and on time. Before you ask the question, it wasn't just once, or just one engineer. Doctors are brilliant people you say? Well gee, maybe I just keep running into the dumb ones! Like the internal medicine specialist I went to in an attempt to find the cause of hives I was suffering from. Our hero diagnosed me with a cold allergy; I suggested it might be stress related, and gave him my reasons for that line of thought, which he promptly dismissed and gave me medication to deal with the "permanent condition" I had come down with. A short time later, the source of my stress disappeared; as did the hives, seventeen years later, and still no recurrence. Another brilliant clinician, upon diagnosing me with pneumonia; had to be talked into releasing me from an obligation that, if I had attended, I could very easily have infected something on the order of two hundred people in the close confines and recirculated air we would have been forced to endure.
How do I classify a really bright person? Not by the school they went to that's for sure. Again maybe i'm missing something here, but i've always classified intelligence on a person's ability to learn and process knowledge. Not by if they've tried to "hammer a nail in sideways." Some people aren't mechanically inclined, I recognize that; but if you only have to show or teach a person something once, and they can grasp it, to me they're pretty bright. Even if they didn't stroll up the aisle to get their scroll from Eton, or Harvard, or Buttfuck U.
You need a business degree to run a successful operation these days; or so some of you would have us believe. What a load of BS I've taken a several university level business courses and found them to be highly entertaining, but not particularly useful. Passing said courses is just a matter of having the discipline to show up for class, and repeat the mantra on the exams. In fact, I got the highest mark in the course on one of them, by sitting at the back and harassing the instructor every time he started to spout the psychobabble that is de rigeur in business today. I suspect he appreciated having someone who actually had the guts to challenge him; instead of just sit there and mindlessly accept everything thrown out as gospel.
For those of you who seem to think I was equating money with education; i'll try to spell it out a little more clearly. I was, in fact, thinking of various people I served with in the military who came from the outports of Newfoundland. These people, through no fault of their own, never had the chance to go to university or in some cases high school. Does that make them any less capable than those of you who managed not to drink away all of your student loan money? I certainly don't think so; in fact, i'll stack them up against any of you university grads any day of the week. As I said before, it's about opportunity, not ability. You had it, they didn't.
As for the question, "how did I classify some of these engineers as Grade A morons?" It was fairly simple really; it came from watching these engineers working in their own area of expertise, have to be led around by the nose by a technician (with a high school education I might add) so the job could be finished correctly and on time. Before you ask the question, it wasn't just once, or just one engineer. Doctors are brilliant people you say? Well gee, maybe I just keep running into the dumb ones! Like the internal medicine specialist I went to in an attempt to find the cause of hives I was suffering from. Our hero diagnosed me with a cold allergy; I suggested it might be stress related, and gave him my reasons for that line of thought, which he promptly dismissed and gave me medication to deal with the "permanent condition" I had come down with. A short time later, the source of my stress disappeared; as did the hives, seventeen years later, and still no recurrence. Another brilliant clinician, upon diagnosing me with pneumonia; had to be talked into releasing me from an obligation that, if I had attended, I could very easily have infected something on the order of two hundred people in the close confines and recirculated air we would have been forced to endure.
How do I classify a really bright person? Not by the school they went to that's for sure. Again maybe i'm missing something here, but i've always classified intelligence on a person's ability to learn and process knowledge. Not by if they've tried to "hammer a nail in sideways." Some people aren't mechanically inclined, I recognize that; but if you only have to show or teach a person something once, and they can grasp it, to me they're pretty bright. Even if they didn't stroll up the aisle to get their scroll from Eton, or Harvard, or Buttfuck U.
You need a business degree to run a successful operation these days; or so some of you would have us believe. What a load of BS I've taken a several university level business courses and found them to be highly entertaining, but not particularly useful. Passing said courses is just a matter of having the discipline to show up for class, and repeat the mantra on the exams. In fact, I got the highest mark in the course on one of them, by sitting at the back and harassing the instructor every time he started to spout the psychobabble that is de rigeur in business today. I suspect he appreciated having someone who actually had the guts to challenge him; instead of just sit there and mindlessly accept everything thrown out as gospel.
For those of you who seem to think I was equating money with education; i'll try to spell it out a little more clearly. I was, in fact, thinking of various people I served with in the military who came from the outports of Newfoundland. These people, through no fault of their own, never had the chance to go to university or in some cases high school. Does that make them any less capable than those of you who managed not to drink away all of your student loan money? I certainly don't think so; in fact, i'll stack them up against any of you university grads any day of the week. As I said before, it's about opportunity, not ability. You had it, they didn't.
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cheeky cough
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- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:16 am
Hi Everyone, I think it is important to comment on this subject.
Education is very important , however it has been documented in a newspaper article that one's academic credentials does not automatically
guarantee respect from other people. However, in the context of aviation, it is interesting to comment on what I have seen so far in my carreer.
First, a little of my background. I did the Air Cadet tour from age 13-19 and during that time I had dreams of flying fighter aircraft like every other young guy. My vision went below 20-20 during high school and I had to go to plan B. There were programs available at the time where a degree was not required. (OCTP)
I thought the same thing at age 19 , should I get a degree because that is what the airlines wanted? I even thought of joining the military in a non-pilot position. I did not have enough money for flight training and student loans only provide a fraction of the cost per year. I chose to pursue my degree and four years later , I had a Bachelor of Science. ( With a hefty student loan debt)
Ok, now what? So then, I decided to join the military reserves as an Officer
and at least make a little money.
During my short stay in the reserves, I learned an important lesson in my basic offficer training. One's academic background does not help in the area of common sense. I saw Engineers, Doctors,and Accountent type of people fumble through their leadership taskings and basically gave the impression that we would all dead under their leadership in a war.
On the other hand we had former Sergeants who worked their way up the ranks to become officers. It was no contest . They had developed their common sense by working with other people and basically had on the job training in their careers. But, as I look back, and a little more wiser , age and confidence does not hurt in the eyes of one's followers.
The training one receives in the military, no matter what trade is excellent. ( Could be debated!)
Some of the front line trades, are not forgiving in a training sense. If one cannot keep up academically and performance wise ,in the set amount of time and funding , you are let go. The difference is that they are paying you to train and not the other way around. A degree,
even though it may not be accurate , is the main way the military predicts that you will be successful in your future training. The person has demonstrated that they have learned how to learn. The military is very keen on attention to detail. ( shining shoes and marching are prime examples, they do not encourage this because it is military tradition, there is a reason for everything). This attention to detail is then hoped to be transferred to the actual job in the person's career.
I then decided I had to pursue my goal of being a pilot. The only way I could make my financing work, would be to go to a two year college.
This is once again due to yearly student loan allotments and summer employment income etc.. I picked the college I wanted to go to from the list that the military deems suitable for their college pilot entry program and one that was close to my family.
I must say , that I really enjoyed my time there. I was one of the older students with a little real world experience, but not much more. The training was excellent and I really learned a lot from studying with my friends. I believe that is the strength of some colleges. My classmates were all very intelligent and a majority of them are now Airline and Airforce pilots.
I am straying a little off topic, but I have a list of 10 things that I have noticed in regards to education and aviation. ( Drum roll Paul)
1. Chief pilots or companys hire in their own image. If you were ex instructor, former college, person from the same part of the country, similar drinking ability,or you have a similar education background, your chances of being hired are greatly increased.
2. What part of the cycle is the industry in at the moment. Is it important to have one's qualifications ready for the next wave of major hiring.
I personally think now is the time to do the college route and get out in the industry and do some flying because in 3-4 years the industry will be moving again.
3. Getting into the military as an Officer and Pilot , not only requires a degree but many other leadership traits that one develops working at Mcdonalds, being Captain of your sports team, voluntary work, clean school record, overall attitude, etc.. Being an Officer requires one to develop good people skills. I know these things because my wife was a military recruiting officer for six years.
4. One can easily tell when their manager or boss is intelligent and very open to learning from his subordinates. ( May not be related to education, but important to note). You will at least once in your career have a "Stupid and Stubborn" boss. I am not joking.
5. If you are educated by a flying college of University, be wary that some people have created a bad name for themselves thinking that once out of school they do not have to work in the north or do jobs that are below them, because they just finished studying Attitude and Heading reference systems (AHRS) at their former posh schools. Aviation is a tough industry and many chief pilots and seasoned pilots do not have time for these attitudes. However, learning these complex systems early in one's career do pay off later on in a fast paced ground school where there is not a lot of time to cover every system in the detail one would receive in school.
6. It has always been said that it is important to have back up education in case one loses their medical. I think that is good advice.
7. I think that getting one's degree while working full time is very admirable . I hope that you do not have any children running around as well! ( Athabasca perhaps?)
8. I think that a really good way to get an excellent education is go to a college and then take elective classes ther that could to transferred to a degree program later. I think the time that they are good for is something like six years.
9. A solid education and great attitude will guarantee success........maybe!
There are no guarantees in aviation. Seriously.
!0. Above all, aviation is a Life-long learning process and any post secondary education shows that one enjoys to learn new things.
It is very distressing to see pilots do the absolute minimum required to prepare for recurrent training or upgrades. You will see early in your career the ones you know that will make it in aviation and those that will marginally get by every year ( just hope they do not kill anyone).
Aviation is a profession and serious business. Do not let other aviation workers tell you otherwise. Getting your CPL is a licence to learn and I believe that a national mentorship program should be in place. (However , some individuals would probably love to flap their gums at how good they are to new impressionable pilots).
I hope there are not too many spelling mistakes and grammatical errors. That is the first thing that gets you flamed on the internet!
The internet is a wonderful tool for learning and its future in aviation training is only going to get better.
Fly safe everyone, and I hope I do not sound like a big jerk. I am always available to drink a big bottle of Whiskey and talk about flying with anyone who wants to. Education is still available to everyone and I do not believe in a class system.....yet....my dad was a janitor! But, to be fair, aviation is slowly becoming a profession of the rich.
Cheeky
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| | | | | Inbo
Education is very important , however it has been documented in a newspaper article that one's academic credentials does not automatically
guarantee respect from other people. However, in the context of aviation, it is interesting to comment on what I have seen so far in my carreer.
First, a little of my background. I did the Air Cadet tour from age 13-19 and during that time I had dreams of flying fighter aircraft like every other young guy. My vision went below 20-20 during high school and I had to go to plan B. There were programs available at the time where a degree was not required. (OCTP)
I thought the same thing at age 19 , should I get a degree because that is what the airlines wanted? I even thought of joining the military in a non-pilot position. I did not have enough money for flight training and student loans only provide a fraction of the cost per year. I chose to pursue my degree and four years later , I had a Bachelor of Science. ( With a hefty student loan debt)
Ok, now what? So then, I decided to join the military reserves as an Officer
and at least make a little money.
During my short stay in the reserves, I learned an important lesson in my basic offficer training. One's academic background does not help in the area of common sense. I saw Engineers, Doctors,and Accountent type of people fumble through their leadership taskings and basically gave the impression that we would all dead under their leadership in a war.
On the other hand we had former Sergeants who worked their way up the ranks to become officers. It was no contest . They had developed their common sense by working with other people and basically had on the job training in their careers. But, as I look back, and a little more wiser , age and confidence does not hurt in the eyes of one's followers.
The training one receives in the military, no matter what trade is excellent. ( Could be debated!)
Some of the front line trades, are not forgiving in a training sense. If one cannot keep up academically and performance wise ,in the set amount of time and funding , you are let go. The difference is that they are paying you to train and not the other way around. A degree,
even though it may not be accurate , is the main way the military predicts that you will be successful in your future training. The person has demonstrated that they have learned how to learn. The military is very keen on attention to detail. ( shining shoes and marching are prime examples, they do not encourage this because it is military tradition, there is a reason for everything). This attention to detail is then hoped to be transferred to the actual job in the person's career.
I then decided I had to pursue my goal of being a pilot. The only way I could make my financing work, would be to go to a two year college.
This is once again due to yearly student loan allotments and summer employment income etc.. I picked the college I wanted to go to from the list that the military deems suitable for their college pilot entry program and one that was close to my family.
I must say , that I really enjoyed my time there. I was one of the older students with a little real world experience, but not much more. The training was excellent and I really learned a lot from studying with my friends. I believe that is the strength of some colleges. My classmates were all very intelligent and a majority of them are now Airline and Airforce pilots.
I am straying a little off topic, but I have a list of 10 things that I have noticed in regards to education and aviation. ( Drum roll Paul)
1. Chief pilots or companys hire in their own image. If you were ex instructor, former college, person from the same part of the country, similar drinking ability,or you have a similar education background, your chances of being hired are greatly increased.
2. What part of the cycle is the industry in at the moment. Is it important to have one's qualifications ready for the next wave of major hiring.
I personally think now is the time to do the college route and get out in the industry and do some flying because in 3-4 years the industry will be moving again.
3. Getting into the military as an Officer and Pilot , not only requires a degree but many other leadership traits that one develops working at Mcdonalds, being Captain of your sports team, voluntary work, clean school record, overall attitude, etc.. Being an Officer requires one to develop good people skills. I know these things because my wife was a military recruiting officer for six years.
4. One can easily tell when their manager or boss is intelligent and very open to learning from his subordinates. ( May not be related to education, but important to note). You will at least once in your career have a "Stupid and Stubborn" boss. I am not joking.
5. If you are educated by a flying college of University, be wary that some people have created a bad name for themselves thinking that once out of school they do not have to work in the north or do jobs that are below them, because they just finished studying Attitude and Heading reference systems (AHRS) at their former posh schools. Aviation is a tough industry and many chief pilots and seasoned pilots do not have time for these attitudes. However, learning these complex systems early in one's career do pay off later on in a fast paced ground school where there is not a lot of time to cover every system in the detail one would receive in school.
6. It has always been said that it is important to have back up education in case one loses their medical. I think that is good advice.
7. I think that getting one's degree while working full time is very admirable . I hope that you do not have any children running around as well! ( Athabasca perhaps?)
8. I think that a really good way to get an excellent education is go to a college and then take elective classes ther that could to transferred to a degree program later. I think the time that they are good for is something like six years.
9. A solid education and great attitude will guarantee success........maybe!
There are no guarantees in aviation. Seriously.
!0. Above all, aviation is a Life-long learning process and any post secondary education shows that one enjoys to learn new things.
It is very distressing to see pilots do the absolute minimum required to prepare for recurrent training or upgrades. You will see early in your career the ones you know that will make it in aviation and those that will marginally get by every year ( just hope they do not kill anyone).
Aviation is a profession and serious business. Do not let other aviation workers tell you otherwise. Getting your CPL is a licence to learn and I believe that a national mentorship program should be in place. (However , some individuals would probably love to flap their gums at how good they are to new impressionable pilots).
I hope there are not too many spelling mistakes and grammatical errors. That is the first thing that gets you flamed on the internet!
The internet is a wonderful tool for learning and its future in aviation training is only going to get better.
Fly safe everyone, and I hope I do not sound like a big jerk. I am always available to drink a big bottle of Whiskey and talk about flying with anyone who wants to. Education is still available to everyone and I do not believe in a class system.....yet....my dad was a janitor! But, to be fair, aviation is slowly becoming a profession of the rich.
Cheeky
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| | | | | Inbo
Times are changing
You now require skill other than flying to be a Business Pilot either airline, corporate or small air taxi. It is bad for business when your pilot doesn't know how to sign his name or produce a cost report for finance. In general pilots have to have more than just flying skills.
You now require skill other than flying to be a Business Pilot either airline, corporate or small air taxi. It is bad for business when your pilot doesn't know how to sign his name or produce a cost report for finance. In general pilots have to have more than just flying skills.
I wish I could spell
Class based system? It was that way in the past, but honestly, if you know how and where to spend your money, it <i>is</i> possible to earn your degree these days. And I'm not denying that it's %*$@ing expensive either...
I paid my 30k for my commercial and instructor rating with no help from mommy and daddy.
I'm working on my degree; also with no help from mommy and daddy. Obviously, it can be done. People seem to waste away their money on little stuff, and wonder where it went! It's a matter of priorities.
I paid my 30k for my commercial and instructor rating with no help from mommy and daddy.
I'm working on my degree; also with no help from mommy and daddy. Obviously, it can be done. People seem to waste away their money on little stuff, and wonder where it went! It's a matter of priorities.
Arguing with people here about whether or not a degree is good for you is about as useful as arguing with your mother whether or not eating vegetables or changing your socks and underwear every day is good for you.
You're a big boy now. You're all grown up. Time to start making some of your own choices, and living with the consequences. It's called being an adult.
You're a big boy now. You're all grown up. Time to start making some of your own choices, and living with the consequences. It's called being an adult.
Those education comapnies you are referring to are profit oriented...I assure you that a degree from LBS, INSEAD or McGill are not just a walk in the park...cyyz wrote: But people could always go to University in the past, the thing was you needed to be <i>smart</i> . Today they've created all these new courses BA in keeping the world clean*. BA in saving the rain forest*
Today you have smart people taking their usual courses and because "everyone" has glorified the degree you have stupid people trying to get into any program that will take them. OCAD is offering 4 year degree courses.. BA in painting.. Lol.
In the past(assuming I could be that old) I'd accept and tolerate someone who would flaunt their credentials and brag how he's "educated." Today everyone has an "education" in something or another and instead of graduating from a class of 50 they graduate from a class of 10K+.
We are still behind in Canada with our general degrees!! Europe has adapted, I believe we should too...
In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. Buffett
I think an important point has to be raised. In an industry with a surplus of pilots and surplus of resumes, an employer must use education as a qualifier. Surely they can't do a check ride for every potential candidate. In North America education is used partly to deterimine an individuals intelliegnce but more importantly their level of character.
Completing a degree or diploma does show that you start what you finish, have the ambition to increase your knowledge, execute time management skills, and in respect to aviation have skills that span beyond the cockpit.
I also believe that things such as traveling and volunteer show an employer the same things. The question is, in terms of selecting pilots for a job - what are the other key things to look at on a resume which shows that this person has desireable qualities ?
I think that a persoanl interview and a reference from a current employer will show an individuals true character.
Completing a degree or diploma does show that you start what you finish, have the ambition to increase your knowledge, execute time management skills, and in respect to aviation have skills that span beyond the cockpit.
I also believe that things such as traveling and volunteer show an employer the same things. The question is, in terms of selecting pilots for a job - what are the other key things to look at on a resume which shows that this person has desireable qualities ?
I think that a persoanl interview and a reference from a current employer will show an individuals true character.
tequesta wrote: I think that a persoanl interview and a reference from a current employer will show an individuals true character.
Nicely put.
Last edited by cyyz on Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Shiny Side Up, thanks for the contrived facts. About 75% of the people that I went to school with were there under their own power. They had no help from mommy or daddy and weren't even able to afford their own car. You spend approximately $4000/yr and you have 4 months in the summer to work your ass off and the gov. will dish out loans like crazy. Aviation training on the other hand is a rich mans sport. About 30% of the people that I went to school with were there under their own power and 90% had their own nice wheels. Those going into the Air Force should be bright enough to realise that they require a degree not a CPL Multi IFR. If you didn't look ahead far enough before doing that training then that is your problem. Four years of advanced learning with requirements at every level shows that you have the intelligence, willpower, drive initiative to learn. A one year CPL shows that you blew a lot of money and hit the books for a year, I mean do you think that passing those TC tests show more than an average intelligence level?Shiny Side Up wrote:Now you might say that anyone who puts their minds to it can get a degree. Au contraire. Have you seen how much university costs these days? The money aquired by a student loan doesn't even cover the half of it. Where do you think the extra cash comes from?Now put this in terms of most budding pilots today. You spend $30-$40,000 on your CPL Multi IFR etc. Who among them now has an additional like cost to get a degree?
Dear Shit,
I felt it neccessary to highlight the important points in your paragraph.
[quote="shitdisturber"]...quote]
I find it very amusing that because a doctor misdiagnosed you, he is no longer brilliant. It was pretty easy for you to pass off the fact that he has a book of over 1,000,000 possible diseases/problems yet because he didn't figure out your "stress related" hives he is now a moron. If tomorrow he discovers a cure for cancer has he redeemed himself? Are you going to say that you would have discovered a cure for it by now?
I also had a little chuckle when you thoughtfully determined that the technician was providing better input than the engineer after the engineer followed him around for a while. Maybe the technician should build the next C.N. Tower. Do you know anything about engineering? How did you come to this conclusion?
To pick apart someones spelling/grammer is very typical of the ignorant uneducated. Just because we learned something in one subject we are supposed to be brilliant in everything we do? I suppose you would laugh at a mathamatition who used "their" instead of "there".... look at the moron hahaahahah... he doesn't even know when to use there!! But as you pointed out he should be learning everything in U, not just math.
It's unfortunate that you never had the willpower or drive to follow through with some of your University coarses. But as you said those that did good in Post Secondary Education tend to be the morons. Wait, are you calling yourself a moron?
As for not having a chance to go to U, where do you live? I had friends from trailer parks in my coarses. They came to U on a loan, worked two jobs while going to school full time and left with out a single penny of debt. Anyone can get a loan, anyone can find a full-time job for the four months out of 12 and work part-time during the twelve. Saying that some people can't afford an education is simply a copout. Drink away our student loan money??? Exactly we were all there on loans because we didn't have the money at that time. We got a loan to get out of that trap instead of providing the usual... I cant' afford University.
I felt it neccessary to highlight the important points in your paragraph.
[quote="shitdisturber"]...quote]
I find it very amusing that because a doctor misdiagnosed you, he is no longer brilliant. It was pretty easy for you to pass off the fact that he has a book of over 1,000,000 possible diseases/problems yet because he didn't figure out your "stress related" hives he is now a moron. If tomorrow he discovers a cure for cancer has he redeemed himself? Are you going to say that you would have discovered a cure for it by now?
I also had a little chuckle when you thoughtfully determined that the technician was providing better input than the engineer after the engineer followed him around for a while. Maybe the technician should build the next C.N. Tower. Do you know anything about engineering? How did you come to this conclusion?
To pick apart someones spelling/grammer is very typical of the ignorant uneducated. Just because we learned something in one subject we are supposed to be brilliant in everything we do? I suppose you would laugh at a mathamatition who used "their" instead of "there".... look at the moron hahaahahah... he doesn't even know when to use there!! But as you pointed out he should be learning everything in U, not just math.
It's unfortunate that you never had the willpower or drive to follow through with some of your University coarses. But as you said those that did good in Post Secondary Education tend to be the morons. Wait, are you calling yourself a moron?
As for not having a chance to go to U, where do you live? I had friends from trailer parks in my coarses. They came to U on a loan, worked two jobs while going to school full time and left with out a single penny of debt. Anyone can get a loan, anyone can find a full-time job for the four months out of 12 and work part-time during the twelve. Saying that some people can't afford an education is simply a copout. Drink away our student loan money??? Exactly we were all there on loans because we didn't have the money at that time. We got a loan to get out of that trap instead of providing the usual... I cant' afford University.
From my experience at uni, lots of my friends paid their way through 4+ years. Either loans, or summer work, or both. Then, some drank lots, partied and finished with large debt. Up to you how you want to finish in the end.
As for the argument going forward, having a degree today is almost a requirement. Sure, lots of the classes are crap and worthless, but try applying for a decent job with no degree using that as a reason why you don't have an education. The person hiring went through the same 4+ years and they know that your engineering degree, commerce or whatever had many useless classes BUT it shows you stayed with it, finished, and learnt some skills in persistance (sp?) and time management.
Seeing where my friends, the ones who didn't manage their time well, and ended up dropping out in leiu of a 30K job so they could hang out with friends more and move out from home earlier, and study less at the time, shows that yes, maybe those who don't finish don't have the best judgement skills. Broad claim to make but I've seen this first hand.
And, no. A degree isn't a cake walk. It doesn't just involve paying 30K and sitting through a few boring classes. Try doing that in some senior engineering and comp sci classes in a good Uni. You won't last very long.
Either way. In todays world, not having a decent degree like commerce, engineering or comp sci is going to probably hinder you unless you start your own successful business or having some good connections in aviation. Why not buckle down, focus, and finish a degree. Then at 22 or similar age you can still jump into aviation with something to fall back on and have a B.Sc/BA. on your resume that many others will not havet. I'm sure most corporate flying jobs will require this. And it surely won't hurt if applying at a major or even mid tier carrier.
As for the argument going forward, having a degree today is almost a requirement. Sure, lots of the classes are crap and worthless, but try applying for a decent job with no degree using that as a reason why you don't have an education. The person hiring went through the same 4+ years and they know that your engineering degree, commerce or whatever had many useless classes BUT it shows you stayed with it, finished, and learnt some skills in persistance (sp?) and time management.
Seeing where my friends, the ones who didn't manage their time well, and ended up dropping out in leiu of a 30K job so they could hang out with friends more and move out from home earlier, and study less at the time, shows that yes, maybe those who don't finish don't have the best judgement skills. Broad claim to make but I've seen this first hand.
And, no. A degree isn't a cake walk. It doesn't just involve paying 30K and sitting through a few boring classes. Try doing that in some senior engineering and comp sci classes in a good Uni. You won't last very long.
Either way. In todays world, not having a decent degree like commerce, engineering or comp sci is going to probably hinder you unless you start your own successful business or having some good connections in aviation. Why not buckle down, focus, and finish a degree. Then at 22 or similar age you can still jump into aviation with something to fall back on and have a B.Sc/BA. on your resume that many others will not havet. I'm sure most corporate flying jobs will require this. And it surely won't hurt if applying at a major or even mid tier carrier.
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shitdisturber
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Ah smart, you've done a fairly nice job in some ways of illustrating my points for me.smartass wrote:Dear Shit,
I felt it neccessary to highlight the important points in your paragraph.
shitdisturber wrote:...quote]
I find it very amusing that because a doctor misdiagnosed you, he is no longer brilliant. It was pretty easy for you to pass off the fact that he has a book of over 1,000,000 possible diseases/problems yet because he didn't figure out your "stress related" hives he is now a moron. If tomorrow he discovers a cure for cancer has he redeemed himself? Are you going to say that you would have discovered a cure for it by now?
I also had a little chuckle when you thoughtfully determined that the technician was providing better input than the engineer after the engineer followed him around for a while. Maybe the technician should build the next C.N. Tower. Do you know anything about engineering? How did you come to this conclusion?
To pick apart someones spelling/grammer is very typical of the ignorant uneducated. Just because we learned something in one subject we are supposed to be brilliant in everything we do? I suppose you would laugh at a mathamatition who used "their" instead of "there".... look at the moron hahaahahah... he doesn't even know when to use there!! But as you pointed out he should be learning everything in U, not just math.
It's unfortunate that you never had the willpower or drive to follow through with some of your University coarses. But as you said those that did good in Post Secondary Education tend to be the morons. Wait, are you calling yourself a moron?
As for not having a chance to go to U, where do you live? I had friends from trailer parks in my coarses. They came to U on a loan, worked two jobs while going to school full time and left with out a single penny of debt. Anyone can get a loan, anyone can find a full-time job for the four months out of 12 and work part-time during the twelve. Saying that some people can't afford an education is simply a copout. Drink away our student loan money??? Exactly we were all there on loans because we didn't have the money at that time. We got a loan to get out of that trap instead of providing the usual... I cant' afford University.
I said the doc was a moron because he dismissed out of hand, what the patient; who is generally more in tune with their own body suggested as a cause, without even considering the possibilty. The fact that I was right and he wasn't isn't particularly relevant. He wouldn't even hear me out; just, "nope that's not it!" He's not a moron for not figuring it out, but for refusing to have an open mind and listen to the options.
As for the technicians, notice the plural, and the engineers; did you bother to read what I wrote at all? It's not like these engineers were on a little tour; "over here is the bathroom, that's where you go to pee." These were the people who were endeavouring to make all those nice little schematics the engineers were making a reality; and having to go back time after time and tell them, "sorry, that can't work." The highlight was an argument I participated in, between engineers and technicians as to why running electrical wiring on top of explosive charges was a really bad idea! We're talking a three or four hour argument here!
Where did you come up with the idea that i'd said you had to be brilliant in everything when you come out of university? What I said was, that I find it disturbing that people are coming out of universities nowadays who can't function in their mother tongue. I don't give a damn what major you're taking; as far as i'm concerned universities are failing in their duties as educators if you can build a multi-story tower but can't write a postcard home to mom when you're on vacation without screwing it up!
Now comes your brilliant insights into my character; "when you can't be right, be wrong at the top of your voice!" I didn't continue with the courses because they'd served their purpose, and I had other more important fish to fry. I'll give you a little hint, it involved; wait for it, airplanes!
I used to enjoy quoting from the movie The Battle of Britain; one of the characters says to another, "for the benefit of the uneducated among us, I shall attempt to translate." To paraphrase, for the benefit of the educated among us, I shall attempt to simplify. At no time, did I say I never had the opportunity to go to university. In fact, I had the opportunity, just no desire to do so; which led me to join the military instead, a far tougher version of post secondary education I assure you! What I did say, was that I served with quite a few people from the outports of Newfoundland who never had the opportunity to go to university like you did. Think you had it tough and these people just copped out? You went to high school, a reasonable distance from home like most of us in Canada. In most of these tiny little outports, a high school is an unreasonable distance away, frequently by boat . In case you're unaware, the Atlantic can be a pretty nasty place to be pounding around in winter. Even those who have the luxury of a nearby high school; are usually out trying to keep their families from starving as soon as they're big enough to haul in a net. Have they copped out? Or are they just people whom life has given a tough hand and they're making the best of a bad situation?
The character displayed by these people is why I said i'd choose them over one of you university grads. They were hard working, humble, fun people who were happy to be working at a career where the possibility of death or dismemberment was a fairly abstract concept; instead of a grim reality. As has been said by Mostly Harmless; check the attitude at the door. Your degree hasn't made you a better pilot or businessman or anything else!
I have been flying for more than 30 years. I have a degree, and I just signed up for another one.
What matters to me is how I feel about myself, not what someone else thinks of me.
Besides, school is the only place you will ever work where working your ass off will get you a reward.
Did you know you can get a green card in the US with a master's degree?
What matters to me is how I feel about myself, not what someone else thinks of me.
Besides, school is the only place you will ever work where working your ass off will get you a reward.
Did you know you can get a green card in the US with a master's degree?
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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. ._
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Is this a battle royale of the satirists between smartass and shitdisturber? I hope so. If it is, then yaaaaay!! I get it! You guys are smart!
I'm hip on this.
i really think that a guy who is smart gets books and reeds them. IT's cool when we can be such omnicient pylots!
-istp
I'm hip on this.
i really think that a guy who is smart gets books and reeds them. IT's cool when we can be such omnicient pylots!
-istp
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Shiny Side Up
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I didn't say that getting a degree was impossible for someone willing to work at it, nor that it wouldn't be a good thing to have. But why is say having a degree obviously more valuable than having a college diploma? Or for that matter having your journeyman's ticket in a trade? Both of them also require a significant amount of effort on the individual getting them, they prove you have good learning skills, and lastly they also give you a marketable skill that can be useful in the aviation world. But there is one major difference between them and a University degree: cost.Guido wrote:Class based system? It was that way in the past, but honestly, if you know how and where to spend your money, it <i>is</i> possible to earn your degree these days. And I'm not denying that it's %*$@ing expensive either...
I paid my 30k for my commercial and instructor rating with no help from mommy and daddy.
I'm working on my degree; also with no help from mommy and daddy. Obviously, it can be done. People seem to waste away their money on little stuff, and wonder where it went! It's a matter of priorities.
Yet both the airlines and the military treat these extra skills as irrelevant compared to having a degree. If cost is the only difference then all we're doing is separating the rich from the poor. Not that it isn't possible to become rich first - but we all know what a high paying gig this aviation deal is.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
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Mostly Harmless
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It is interesting how offended some of the people in this thread appear to have become. I’m going to quickly restate the major theme here.
No one here has said having more education is bad.
What has been said is that SOME OF THOSE with a diploma/degree look down on everyone else who could not/does not have a piece of paper themselves. Those individuals do not respect the life/industry experience of other people.
I have worked a great many jobs outside of aviation, and have a considerable amount of life experience in addition to my education. I never look down on someone who did not go to university or college. My own father was of the generation where most didn’t even finish high school. The last thing I would ever call my father is dumb because of that. He knows more about business than most university professors. Why? Because of his life experience in running successful companies. Too many here dismiss the fact that not everyone fits into the government run school system and learn a great deal about their chosen profession on their own. You don’t tend to get a nice piece of paper issued by the government when you do that, but it certainly does not make you ANY less qualified, any less intelligent or any less capable.
To say, or even to think that you are better than the next guy, or will do a better job than the next guy because you have a piece of paper hanging on your wall is the height of arrogance and therein the problem. It’s not the education, it’s the attitude and arrogance that some bring with them to the job.
No one here has said having more education is bad.
What has been said is that SOME OF THOSE with a diploma/degree look down on everyone else who could not/does not have a piece of paper themselves. Those individuals do not respect the life/industry experience of other people.
I have worked a great many jobs outside of aviation, and have a considerable amount of life experience in addition to my education. I never look down on someone who did not go to university or college. My own father was of the generation where most didn’t even finish high school. The last thing I would ever call my father is dumb because of that. He knows more about business than most university professors. Why? Because of his life experience in running successful companies. Too many here dismiss the fact that not everyone fits into the government run school system and learn a great deal about their chosen profession on their own. You don’t tend to get a nice piece of paper issued by the government when you do that, but it certainly does not make you ANY less qualified, any less intelligent or any less capable.
To say, or even to think that you are better than the next guy, or will do a better job than the next guy because you have a piece of paper hanging on your wall is the height of arrogance and therein the problem. It’s not the education, it’s the attitude and arrogance that some bring with them to the job.
I see you’re doing an excellent job of upholding the “people with attitude problems” image that I was talking about.Greenwich said:
So essentially you are saying that a bunch of high school graduates may have done a better job with A/C than Milton and his current group of Lawyers, MBA's, Business School grads, etc.
Not likely!
One of the problems with pilots is that we all live in our own little world and have very little exposure to other facets of life like the 'corporate world'! We start flying at 18, get our first ramp job at 20, and then wake-up one day in the left seat of a Boeing!
It is possible that an experienced group of managers with a "Lowly High School Education" may well have done better. Who knows? All things are possible.
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!
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shitdisturber
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- Location: If it's Monday it's got to be somewhere shitty
At least someone with a high school education would have been smart enough not to paint an airplane pink and give it the call sign "Zipper".Mach1 wrote:I see you’re doing an excellent job of upholding the “people with attitude problems” image that I was talking about.Greenwich said:
So essentially you are saying that a bunch of high school graduates may have done a better job with A/C than Milton and his current group of Lawyers, MBA's, Business School grads, etc.
Not likely!
One of the problems with pilots is that we all live in our own little world and have very little exposure to other facets of life like the 'corporate world'! We start flying at 18, get our first ramp job at 20, and then wake-up one day in the left seat of a Boeing!
It is possible that an experienced group of managers with a "Lowly High School Education" may well have done better. Who knows? All things are possible.
I don't know if you recived the email yet but apperantly spelling is no longer important. Sorry no one told you soonerFlybabe wrote:Sdisturber
You ought to hear the bastardization of the english language here.
It's enough to drive a person nuts...
The fnuny prat aoubt mkagin fun of how poelpe selpl is knid of a ulsielss pinot if you udnrestnad waht i'm wirtitng dnot you tihnk
Can you understand what I'm writing
Eh? Spelling isn't important anymore? Damn!!! Now I have to try to fit in with all these Yankees. Reckon?
As for the rest I couldn't understand it
BTW, when I said "here" I meant Kansas, not on this forum!
As for the rest I couldn't understand it
BTW, when I said "here" I meant Kansas, not on this forum!
Last edited by Flybabe on Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shiny Side Up
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They certainly couldn't have done worse.Mach1 wrote:I see you’re doing an excellent job of upholding the “people with attitude problems” image that I was talking about.Greenwich said:
So essentially you are saying that a bunch of high school graduates may have done a better job with A/C than Milton and his current group of Lawyers, MBA's, Business School grads, etc.
Not likely!
One of the problems with pilots is that we all live in our own little world and have very little exposure to other facets of life like the 'corporate world'! We start flying at 18, get our first ramp job at 20, and then wake-up one day in the left seat of a Boeing!
It is possible that an experienced group of managers with a "Lowly High School Education" may well have done better. Who knows? All things are possible.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
