Does anyone know what the MEC is actually trying to get out of the ULP?

[truedude]

But also about how AC interfered in our negotiation

Do you have actual proof that’s going to hold up in court?

The CIRB isn't a court.

[truedude]

I'd like to know who is going to pay for this common employer application? 5-10 years of litigation, the only ones laughing here are the blood sucking lawyers!

There's no way I want my dues money going towards something so pointless and divisive. Your own MEC is split on the issue. Get your house in order.

Not just lawyers laughing. Im laughing also at how crap jazz Alpa is. can’t believe how much of my salary went to a spineless group of people. This garbage is taking so long, It’s probably time to upgrade the couches and TVs already in their offices.

Glad I got out.

How are they spineless? They are doing what they can with the cards they have. You are literally advocating for them to do nothin... Now that is spineless

[truedude]

I'd like to know who is going to pay for this common employer application? 5-10 years of litigation, the only ones laughing here are the blood sucking lawyers!

There's no way I want my dues money going towards something so pointless and divisive. Your own MEC is split on the issue. Get your house in order.

Before it was 3 to 5 years, now claiming it is 10 years is ridiculous.

[QKZXKV]

I'd like to know who is going to pay for this common employer application? 5-10 years of litigation, the only ones laughing here are the blood sucking lawyers!

There's no way I want my dues money going towards something so pointless and divisive. Your own MEC is split on the issue. Get your house in order.

Not just lawyers laughing. Im laughing also at how crap jazz Alpa is. can’t believe how much of my salary went to a spineless group of people. This garbage is taking so long, It’s probably time to upgrade the couches and TVs already in their offices.

Glad I got out.

Funding the mafia is all it ever was.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Just give it a rest already. Don’t waste anymore money on this.

[truedude]

Just give it a rest already. Don’t waste anymore money on this.

People who don't work at Jazz don't get to tell pilots how to proceed. Amd that so many who don't work at Jazz are working so hard to convince us not to do it, tells me we absolutely should!

[Bede]

Just give it a rest already. Don’t waste anymore money on this.

People who don't work at Jazz don't get to tell pilots how to proceed. Amd that so many who don't work at Jazz are working so hard to convince us not to do it, tells me we absolutely should!

And this is what you don't understand about this process. It's not "we" as in the Jazz MEC that decides this- it's ALPA National.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Just give it a rest already. Don’t waste anymore money on this.

People who don't work at Jazz don't get to tell pilots how to proceed. Amd that so many who don't work at Jazz are working so hard to convince us not to do it, tells me we absolutely should!

It’s just going to waste time and money, the only people who will benefit are the lawyers.

Know when to fold ‘em, true dude.

[truedude]

Just give it a rest already. Don’t waste anymore money on this.

People who don't work at Jazz don't get to tell pilots how to proceed. Amd that so many who don't work at Jazz are working so hard to convince us not to do it, tells me we absolutely should!

It’s just going to waste time and money, the only people who will benefit are the lawyers.

Know when to fold ‘em, true dude.

Not when you have a strong argument. Yes it may lead no where, but it still needs to be pursued. This is exactly why unions exist, to fight these sorts of battles. Doing nothing isn't an acceptable option, regardless of the odds. Your attitude is defeatist, and likely something you would rail against if you own representatives threw in the towel without fighting, given your post history.

I also wouldn't mind hearing the legal opinion on if we can just flat out sue AC, as we had a signed agreement from them to our union that they absolutely would honor the flow part of our contract. They didn't, so perhaps thay is actionable.

[Cypresshill]

There is a certain percentage of Jazz pilots who seemingly have no problem further embarrassing themselves in their support of this stupidity and grift. By default, they embarrass the entire group. Recently had one high IQ disciple tell me the arguing has to stop and the division is terrible for the group. Basically how dare we question what the hell has been going on. As if the events of 2025 until now were not ultimately created by the chairman himself.

Want unity? Fire the executive. Or divided it shall continue to be.

[Turboprops]

But also about how AC interfered in our negotiation

Do you have actual proof that’s going to hold up in court?

The CIRB isn't a court.

So you don’t have proof then.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, I’m sure AC definitely interfered with your bargaining, but if you can’t prove it…
I just don’t think AC is dumb enough to leave tracks for JAZ to win, you think AC’s lawyers are dumb?
Also for flow… you mentioned a secret document signed between Jazz and AC somewhere, have you actually seen this document?

[Cypresshill]

Clearly, AC’s lawyers are miles ahead of this firm of yes-men the MEC exec is so fond of.

[truedude]

Do you have actual proof that’s going to hold up in court?

The CIRB isn't a court.

So you don’t have proof then.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, I’m sure AC definitely interfered with your bargaining, but if you can’t prove it…
I just don’t think AC is dumb enough to leave tracks for JAZ to win, you think AC’s lawyers are dumb?
Also for flow… you mentioned a secret document signed between Jazz and AC somewhere, have you actually seen this document?

It isn't a secret document, it was shown and is available for anyone that wants to see it, and was included in the ULP filing. It isn't a secret at all. So yes, I have seen it.

[truedude]

There is a certain percentage of Jazz pilots who seemingly have no problem further embarrassing themselves in their support of this stupidity and grift. By default, they embarrass the entire group. Recently had one high IQ disciple tell me the arguing has to stop and the division is terrible for the group. Basically how dare we question what the hell has been going on. As if the events of 2025 until now were not ultimately created by the chairman himself.

Want unity? Fire the executive. Or divided it shall continue to be.

Embaress too whom? I could care less what AC pilots or anyone else things. The division is being created primarily by one person, and YUL in general. That is the division. And if he is elected chair, many committees members are apt to resign, and then we will be really screwed. He hasn't even been briefed by legal, yet apparently knows what the best next move is... that isn't leadership, that is propaganda.

[Cypresshill]

Says a propagandist!

Plenty of pilots in all bases want the change. Yes, in YYZ and YVR as well.

Divided we continue.

[Cypresshill]

An embarrassment to any dues paying unionized worker in any industry, but especially in ours. That’s who.

[truedude]

Says a propagandist!

Plenty of pilots in all bases want the change. Yes, in YYZ and YVR as well.

Divided we continue.

We will be way more divided if the YUL rep gets elected. He won't bring unity of any kind. He is a hypocrite of the highest order, having voted in favor of the ULP and office renovations, and everything else. This is clearly a personal vendetta, and he is somehow now claiming he is against everything he supported. He issues communication without having been briefed by legal, pretending to claim he knows more than he does.

If elected, our union would be decimated, left in shambles, directionless and without any sort of unity. And in the end he doesn't care, because none of this is about Jazz pilots, but himself, and his own personal agenda.

[truedude]

An embarrassment to any dues paying unionized worker in any industry, but especially in ours. That’s who.

This is exactly what unions are supposed to do. When a group is grieved, as we have, they us any and all avenues available to seek some form of justice. You are literally advocating for them to do nothing. That is pathetic, and would constitute an absolute failure to represent their members.

[Mr.Worldwide]

If elected, our union would be decimated, left in shambles, directionless and without any sort of unity.

Don’t think for a moment that any individual Chair, Rep, or Exec is so indispensable that the union cannot function without them. If losing a few elected positions truly “decimates” the organization, then the problem isn’t the election outcome, it’s the fragility of the structure itself. Filing for common employer won’t fix that.

You are literally advocating for them to do nothing. That is pathetic, and would constitute an absolute failure to represent their members.

You accuse people here of advocating for “doing nothing,” but that’s a false choice. There have been plenty of excellent posts across these 18 pages arguing for the exact opposite. The main themes being, pick fights you can win. Exercising prudent judgment does not mean a failure to represent. Doubling down on a losing legal strategy and calling it action is. And that's where I get frustrated because that's my dues dollars you're wasting.

Pattern bargaining is moving on, with or without Jazz. While you anchor yourselves to courtrooms and calendars, other groups will be making gains and attracting talent. Over time, the very thing you hope to protect, your relevance, will erode as pilots gravitate toward clear outcomes instead of “it’s complicated.”

[truedude]

If elected, our union would be decimated, left in shambles, directionless and without any sort of unity.

Don’t think for a moment that any individual Chair, Rep, or Exec is so indispensable that the union cannot function without them. If losing a few elected positions truly “decimates” the organization, then the problem isn’t the election outcome, it’s the fragility of the structure itself. Filing for common employer won’t fix that.

You are literally advocating for them to do nothing. That is pathetic, and would constitute an absolute failure to represent their members.

You accuse people here of advocating for “doing nothing,” but that’s a false choice. There have been plenty of excellent posts across these 18 pages arguing for the exact opposite. The main themes being, pick fights you can win. Exercising prudent judgment does not mean a failure to represent. Doubling down on a losing legal strategy and calling it action is. And that's where I get frustrated because that's my dues dollars you're wasting.

Pattern bargaining is moving on, with or without Jazz. While you anchor yourselves to courtrooms and calendars, other groups will be making gains and attracting talent. Over time, the very thing you hope to protect, your relevance, will erode as pilots gravitate toward clear outcomes instead of “it’s complicated.”

Name one thing that anyone here has posted that is even remotely possible if the other party won't engage. You can't negotiate with a company that refuses to want to negotiate. You can't bargain with another pilot group that really has nothing to lose or win by doing anything. The only thing here has been empty rhetoric, with no plan on how to achieve any of it, except rainbows and happy thoughts. You can't bargain with an employer that does not want to bargain. I don't understand what it is about that you can't wrap your head around?

So name one thing that anyone has listed, that is in any way possible if the main company that determines what we get paid, wants to do nothing, and ignores any and all agreements it signs anyways the moment it becomes to burdensome to follow. Agreements which apparently the Jazz pilots are supposed to just shrug off any violations too because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, or are too scared we might lose we have decided it isn't worth the fight anyways.

I am not talking about elected positions. There are a lot of very important people working in none elected roles, and my understanding of the general sentiment is, they have no desire to work under the YUL Reps leadership, should he be nominated chair. They have seen first hand his hypocrisy, and how he has sowed division.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I'd like to know who is going to pay for this common employer application? 5-10 years of litigation, the only ones laughing here are the blood sucking lawyers!

There's no way I want my dues money going towards something so pointless and divisive. Your own MEC is split on the issue. Get your house in order.

Not just lawyers laughing. Im laughing also at how crap jazz Alpa is. can’t believe how much of my salary went to a spineless group of people. This garbage is taking so long, It’s probably time to upgrade the couches and TVs already in their offices.

Glad I got out.

How are they spineless? They are doing what they can with the cards they have. You are literally advocating for them to do nothin... Now that is spineless

Your union at jazz is weak and pathetic. Porter’s management without a union was giving more back. Transat pilots got huge gains. AC and WJ did good enough.

Keep defending your useless and divided pilot group. It’s fine. Everyone knows better.

[Bede]

Name one thing that anyone here has posted that is even remotely possible if the other party won't engage. You can't negotiate with a company that refuses to want to negotiate. You can't bargain with another pilot group that really has nothing to lose or win by doing anything. The only thing here has been empty rhetoric, with no plan on how to achieve any of it, except rainbows and happy thoughts. You can't bargain with an employer that does not want to bargain. I don't understand what it is about that you can't wrap your head around?

So name one thing that anyone has listed, that is in any way possible if the main company that determines what we get paid, wants to do nothing, and ignores any and all agreements it signs anyways the moment it becomes to burdensome to follow.

I've mentioned a couple times that you should file a grievance for the pilots screwed by the flow.

As for the Air Canada "interference", that's annoying but there is no legal remedy. As multiple cases before the CIRB has indicated (Atomic Energy, Bell ExpressVu, etc.) a customer (AC) telling their supplier (Jazz) that they won't pay for the salaries in a costs plus business arrangement is not a cause for the Board to exercise it's discretionary powers despite that it may meet the five elements found in Murray Hill Limousine.

[truedude]

Name one thing that anyone here has posted that is even remotely possible if the other party won't engage. You can't negotiate with a company that refuses to want to negotiate. You can't bargain with another pilot group that really has nothing to lose or win by doing anything. The only thing here has been empty rhetoric, with no plan on how to achieve any of it, except rainbows and happy thoughts. You can't bargain with an employer that does not want to bargain. I don't understand what it is about that you can't wrap your head around?

So name one thing that anyone has listed, that is in any way possible if the main company that determines what we get paid, wants to do nothing, and ignores any and all agreements it signs anyways the moment it becomes to burdensome to follow.

I've mentioned a couple times that you should file a grievance for the pilots screwed by the flow.

As for the Air Canada "interference", that's annoying but there is no legal remedy. As multiple cases before the CIRB has indicated (Atomic Energy, Bell ExpressVu, etc.) a customer (AC) telling their supplier (Jazz) that they won't pay for the salaries in a costs plus business arrangement is not a cause for the Board to exercise it's discretionary powers despite that it may meet the five elements found in Murray Hill Limousine.

Your own example that you previously posted showed that all tenets were met, and that there was an dissenting board member. That is not a sure loss, when there are already indications that not everyone at the CIRB agrees with the do nothing motto of the board. And the CIRB, like all things, does not remain static. The people there change, and as such their interpretation of the law. Like I said, one of the examples you posted had a member dissent.

And a grievance was filed long time a go, and simply sat in limbo as the ULP moved forward. So Kaplin will likely be selected and it will move forward. But you show your ignorance when you say "for the pilots screwed by flow." They are no longer at Jazz, so the grievance is not for them, but for the pilots at Jazz, as a general contract violation. The issue becomes, how does that get remedied, when Jazz says "it wasn't us." I don't see any mechanism that exists for a grievance to extract anything from the party that is responsible for the failure to follow flow, which is AC. Which is why the ULP was attempted, because it was the only way to drag them into this. Which it did. The only way to drag them back into it would be through a S.35.

However, this is also why I think it should be explored whether or not a lawsuit can be filed, on behalf of former and current Jazz pilots, for AC ignoring the agreement it signed with Jazz ALPA. Perhaps a class action type lawsuit. But now we are well out of bounds on what I know.

[truedude]

Not just lawyers laughing. Im laughing also at how crap jazz Alpa is. can’t believe how much of my salary went to a spineless group of people. This garbage is taking so long, It’s probably time to upgrade the couches and TVs already in their offices.

Glad I got out.

How are they spineless? They are doing what they can with the cards they have. You are literally advocating for them to do nothin... Now that is spineless

Your union at jazz is weak and pathetic. Porter’s management without a union was giving more back. Transat pilots got huge gains. AC and WJ did good enough.

Keep defending your useless and divided pilot group. It’s fine. Everyone knows better.

Porter was growing and realized the only way to do that was to pay. All the rest had expired contracts and where in formal contract negotiations. Jazz is not. I know, it is nuanced, so it makes things hard to follow for those that really don't want to understand.

[rudder]

Name one thing that anyone here has posted that is even remotely possible if the other party won't engage. You can't negotiate with a company that refuses to want to negotiate. You can't bargain with another pilot group that really has nothing to lose or win by doing anything. The only thing here has been empty rhetoric, with no plan on how to achieve any of it, except rainbows and happy thoughts. You can't bargain with an employer that does not want to bargain. I don't understand what it is about that you can't wrap your head around?

So name one thing that anyone has listed, that is in any way possible if the main company that determines what we get paid, wants to do nothing, and ignores any and all agreements it signs anyways the moment it becomes to burdensome to follow.

I've mentioned a couple times that you should file a grievance for the pilots screwed by the flow.

As for the Air Canada "interference", that's annoying but there is no legal remedy. As multiple cases before the CIRB has indicated (Atomic Energy, Bell ExpressVu, etc.) a customer (AC) telling their supplier (Jazz) that they won't pay for the salaries in a costs plus business arrangement is not a cause for the Board to exercise it's discretionary powers despite that it may meet the five elements found in Murray Hill Limousine.

Bede,

Your analysis should also be the analysis of any competent and credible legal resource retained to advise on the matter.

That legal analysis might not be that there is a ‘zero’ chance of a sustained petition, but it should be the reasonable assessment of the odds of achieving the relief requested. 1 in 2? 1 in 5? 1 in 10? 1 in 100? Thus far, it appears that any response above zero is a low enough threshold for the JAZ MEC to file.

The sentiment “we need to do something” has translated in to “we will do anything”.

I hope that you are correct that the ultimate consent for an s35 filing will rest with ALPA National and not an MEC.

Maximum leverage (if any) was during the mediation phase involving the CIRB. Now, the residual rhetoric appears more like an angry man shaking his fist at the sky.

The Jazz pilots got screwed. That is a matter of fact. But being right doesn’t guarantee success in any form of litigation. Thus far, the CIRB has rejected all remedy requested in the ULP filing. The JAZ MEC might prevail in a grievance to arbitration but receive less than they hope for in the form of remedy. And just because the CIRB has suggested that some of the issues raised in the ULP filing might be more properly considered in the context of an s35 petition does not guarantee that such filing will result in a positive decision.

This is sad to watch and most certainly frustrating for the Jazz pilots who are seeking compliance with the terms of their CBA which provide for some degree of job security and the negotiated career progression opportunity with AC. But that frustration cannot translate in to an ‘us against the world’ mentality. Without allies, it will not end well. Who are the allies? Please do not say it is just the lawyers being paid by the JAZ MEC. And it is most certainly not the CIRB. It is also painfully evident that the ‘us’ at Jazz is a divided group both at the elected level as well as within the membership. 50%+1 is not good enough when you presume to fight a war.

The reality for the Jazz pilots is that the true employer is a CPA carrier. It is unlikely that will change anytime soon so base expectations on that paradigm. And suggestions of civil litigation (which per ALPA Policy would have to be member funded) speak to desperation borne from failure in every other forum.

History is the teacher. The history of the Jazz/ACR pilots in litigation is not a single victory. Success has only come when the Jazz pilots were smart enough to recognize and exploit an opportunity. Sometimes those opportunities present themselves, and sometimes they have to be created. Unfortunately, in the recent timeframe that ship may have already sailed.