Leave TS for AC?

[PostmasterGeneral]

I still can't get over junior Air Transat pilots concerned over the shit Quality of Life at AC.

How did the MEC at Air Canada present such a shit contract that it has come to this?!

Presented? Have you been under a rock? The contract was ratified over a year ago.

Lol...so what was the first step after this MEC capitulated?

It presented the "deal".

A deal so good that it is making Air Transat pilots question if they should leave for AC...LMAO

It’s a shit deal. If you want to think it’s “good” you’re entitled to your opinion, but you won’t convince me of it. I voted no.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Where are these so called experienced pilots going to go? One or two might go overseas, but let's be honest, 99% will stay and simply be grumpy.

Corporate, overseas, porter, Jetlines 2.0?

I'd wager that there's more than just one or two going overseas. Canada is losing record people in the mid 30's to early 40's. Most of them skilled workers. I have a hard time seeing how people will just stay in YYZ, not get a 300k/yr job fairly quickly, and expect to buildout their Canadian dreams. Unless they're 22 and have time.

The only way YYZ/YVR works is if you get that command ASAP. Otherwise you're looking at commuting for lifestyle and affordability, and if you're going to commute, is Air Sprint at 160k/yr on a 8 on 6 off based in YYC such a bad position anymore?

I think the wave of resignations will increase if this keeps up. It's not the old days where people slum it out for the greater good long term. The fact is people need a lot of money in this country to build what took a lot less in the past. So for that reason, career expectancies have to be faster, or people start looking for options, even if to their detriment, it means leaving Canada, or leaving Air canada/Wj.

Got a few friends that recruit for ETH and EK, there's been a massive uptick in resumes from Canadian's the last 2 years. Guess only 6-7% of their applications used to be from Canadians. Now it's 30% of their applications. Make of that what you will, but it's showing you people are starting to consider their options to leave. Considering most aren't 'qualified' to leave a King Air job to go to those carriers, one only starts wondering who's left? AC/WJ(Sunwing)/Flair?

I don't think it's the flying4dollars that are applying to go to EK, they made it out like bandits with their 2022 hire. So it's likely 4800+ at AC on their way out, and 1500+ at WJ.

Judging by the line status changes on every CMSC bid, resignations are definitely a hotter topic now than they used to be pre 2020.

Judging by how the kids joining AC today mainly flew a metro, or a dash 8, or king air before joining, it's starting to become evident where the chips are falling in terms of who's got applications to leave.

But then again, like one of my classy colleagues said earlier, he will find you the e-mail to resign if you don't like it. Somehow I think Canada's arrogance is about to run out in the next half decade.

EGW, this is what you're choosing to join if you want to leave TS. Good luck with your decision.

For what it's worth, I think an AC career for a 30-35 year old will still be fine. At least I'm happy and look forward to what's ahead.

I'm on year 3 and very seriously considering leaving. I get the first few years are supposed to suck but it's becoming harder and harder to see things improving much even a decade down the line. On the NB QOL is abysmal even for senior guys. Almost everyone I talk to is miserable, tired, defeated. Those who aren't have intentionally buried their heads in denial. WB is slightly better but the constant time zone changes and associated fatigue take its toll. Yes pension, yes job security but you're living a horrible existence for how long to "have it good" when you're 65...if you're still in any kind of state to enjoy it.

The really astonishing thing to me has been how AC, as a whole, treats it's employees with complete and utter disdain. At no other company I have ever worked for (including some questionable ones up north) have ever I felt as disrespected and derided here as here. You are worse than nothing, you are the enemy. To be exploited, lied to, intimidated, and subjugated into compliance. It's like they get joy out of constantly violating the contract and finding backdoor ways to @#$! you over. How people do 30yrs under this working environment I don't know. It's toxic and disgusting.

ALPA, as we know, talks a big game about support and advocacy. However when things get escalated it usually boils down to "we don't agree with the company but it is what it is". So be a good boy and we'll get em in the next round. The grievance system is broken and they have zero power or leverage. There also seems to be very little desire to actually hold the company accountable for anything. I don't see the next round of negotiations going anywhere positive.

The days of nobody leaves AC are well and truly gone. At this point, I'm surprised the numbers aren't higher (I think a lot of guys still struggle getting over the image that this is the "peak" of Canadian aviation). I wouldn't in good conscience recommend this company to anyone.

I can absolutely echo this sentiment. The lack of a future at this company is frustrating. The C suite is utterly clueless, leading to confusion amongst the employees and passengers as to what service we are actually trying to provide here. It certainly isn’t an on time airline, especially as of late. It’s not a high quality product, because the aircraft are run down, the employees are all disgruntled and do not enjoy their jobs, (it shows) and when we look to the “leadership” for some clear sense of direction, we’re met with fluff and rainbow emails about how great everything is, meanwhile the operation is in shambles.

The good news is it can’t continue on this trajectory for too much longer. Employees are leaving, passengers are taking their business to other airlines, and investors are putting their money elsewhere.

[Flyboy736]

Where are these so called experienced pilots going to go? One or two might go overseas, but let's be honest, 99% will stay and simply be grumpy.

Corporate, overseas, porter, Jetlines 2.0?

I'd wager that there's more than just one or two going overseas. Canada is losing record people in the mid 30's to early 40's. Most of them skilled workers. I have a hard time seeing how people will just stay in YYZ, not get a 300k/yr job fairly quickly, and expect to buildout their Canadian dreams. Unless they're 22 and have time.

The only way YYZ/YVR works is if you get that command ASAP. Otherwise you're looking at commuting for lifestyle and affordability, and if you're going to commute, is Air Sprint at 160k/yr on a 8 on 6 off based in YYC such a bad position anymore?

I think the wave of resignations will increase if this keeps up. It's not the old days where people slum it out for the greater good long term. The fact is people need a lot of money in this country to build what took a lot less in the past. So for that reason, career expectancies have to be faster, or people start looking for options, even if to their detriment, it means leaving Canada, or leaving Air canada/Wj.

Got a few friends that recruit for ETH and EK, there's been a massive uptick in resumes from Canadian's the last 2 years. Guess only 6-7% of their applications used to be from Canadians. Now it's 30% of their applications. Make of that what you will, but it's showing you people are starting to consider their options to leave. Considering most aren't 'qualified' to leave a King Air job to go to those carriers, one only starts wondering who's left? AC/WJ(Sunwing)/Flair?

I don't think it's the flying4dollars that are applying to go to EK, they made it out like bandits with their 2022 hire. So it's likely 4800+ at AC on their way out, and 1500+ at WJ.

Judging by the line status changes on every CMSC bid, resignations are definitely a hotter topic now than they used to be pre 2020.

Judging by how the kids joining AC today mainly flew a metro, or a dash 8, or king air before joining, it's starting to become evident where the chips are falling in terms of who's got applications to leave.

But then again, like one of my classy colleagues said earlier, he will find you the e-mail to resign if you don't like it. Somehow I think Canada's arrogance is about to run out in the next half decade.

EGW, this is what you're choosing to join if you want to leave TS. Good luck with your decision.

For what it's worth, I think an AC career for a 30-35 year old will still be fine. At least I'm happy and look forward to what's ahead.

I'm on year 3 and very seriously considering leaving. I get the first few years are supposed to suck but it's becoming harder and harder to see things improving much even a decade down the line. On the NB QOL is abysmal even for senior guys. Almost everyone I talk to is miserable, tired, defeated. Those who aren't have intentionally buried their heads in denial. WB is slightly better but the constant time zone changes and associated fatigue take its toll. Yes pension, yes job security but you're living a horrible existence for how long to "have it good" when you're 65...if you're still in any kind of state to enjoy it.

The really astonishing thing to me has been how AC, as a whole, treats it's employees with complete and utter disdain. At no other company I have ever worked for (including some questionable ones up north) have ever I felt as disrespected and derided here as here. You are worse than nothing, you are the enemy. To be exploited, lied to, intimidated, and subjugated into compliance. It's like they get joy out of constantly violating the contract and finding backdoor ways to @#$! you over. How people do 30yrs under this working environment I don't know. It's toxic and disgusting.

ALPA, as we know, talks a big game about support and advocacy. However when things get escalated it usually boils down to "we don't agree with the company but it is what it is". So be a good boy and we'll get em in the next round. The grievance system is broken and they have zero power or leverage. There also seems to be very little desire to actually hold the company accountable for anything. I don't see the next round of negotiations going anywhere positive.

The days of nobody leaves AC are well and truly gone. At this point, I'm surprised the numbers aren't higher (I think a lot of guys still struggle getting over the image that this is the "peak" of Canadian aviation). I wouldn't in good conscience recommend this company to anyone.

From 4th hand information ALPA national has commented they have never seen such toxic management as those at Air Canada.
As for the grievances, they are convinced AC's strategy is to violate the contract as much as possible so that come 2027 some bargaining capital will have to be used to get the stuff we were already awarded. The good news is instead of arbitration in person (which they were hoping so that they can drag it out) the arbitrator decided to accept electronic submissions which will speed things up.

[350driver]

If these few replies aren't an indication as to the 'state of' an Air Canada career today, I don't know what else will show you what's actually going on.

You have guys that are more median like fly4dollars, but you saw what he said. He came here for the paycheque, and the quick upgrade, and both worked out. Imagine he was the same as the 2024 new hires being told the same, and are now sitting here with no upgrade, and a shit paycheque?

Really consider all of this EGW, and seriously, anyone else considering joining. If you have your money in order before coming here, you'll likely be able to weather it.

But coming here, expecting to start building your life? Don't even think about it for the first 7-10 years. By that time you hope properties and cost of living havent' sky rocketed and that your "CAD" is still worth something in this ever inflationary economy.

Good luck EGW, and people like him.

[altiplano]

From 4th hand information ALPA national has commented they have never seen such toxic management as those at Air Canada.

Fact. I heard it first hand that ALPA HQ reps commented it's the worst employee/employer relations of any ALPA property.

[Me262]

From 4th hand information ALPA national has commented they have never seen such toxic management as those at Air Canada.

Fact. I heard it first hand that ALPA HQ reps commented it's the worst employee/employer relations of any ALPA property.

That's what happens when you think your top dog and everybody else is beneath you

[thepoors]

From 4th hand information ALPA national has commented they have never seen such toxic management as those at Air Canada.

Fact. I heard it first hand that ALPA HQ reps commented it's the worst employee/employer relations of any ALPA property.

That's what happens when you think your top dog and everybody else is beneath you

This is the fantasy that management and most of the boomer boot licking CAs here would like everyone to believe. The facade is slowly crumbling though.

[Me262]

Fact. I heard it first hand that ALPA HQ reps commented it's the worst employee/employer relations of any ALPA property.

That's what happens when you think your top dog and everybody else is beneath you

This is the fantasy that management and most of the boomer boot licking CAs here would like everyone to believe. The facade is slowly crumbling though.

Can't crumble fast enough. This and northern operators that abuse new pilots stepping on their door.

[Bede]

From 4th hand information ALPA national has commented they have never seen such toxic management as those at Air Canada.

Fact. I heard it first hand that ALPA HQ reps commented it's the worst employee/employer relations of any ALPA property.

I’ve heard it straight from the horses mouth.