Westjet Encore DH8D at Vancouver on Jan 2nd 2026

[Eric Janson]

https://avherald.com/h?article=533e3941&opt=0

From the report:-

The crew attempted to stop the descent via the FGCP, then disconnected the autopilot and entered a manual climb at 3600 fpm.

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Looks like about an 800 foot descent starting from 2000.

Hope this is addressed by the training department - an unacceptable level of performance imho.

[dustyroads]

https://avherald.com/h?article=533e3941&opt=0

From the report:-

The crew attempted to stop the descent via the FGCP, then disconnected the autopilot and entered a manual climb at 3600 fpm.

.

Looks like about an 800 foot descent starting from 2000.

Hope this is addressed by the training department - an unacceptable level of performance imho.

Might want to hire someone who can hand fly and takes the AP off at first indication of something not right instead of fiddling around with pushing buttons while the aircraft is clearly going into an abnormal state.

[Me262]

https://avherald.com/h?article=533e3941&opt=0

From the report:-

The crew attempted to stop the descent via the FGCP, then disconnected the autopilot and entered a manual climb at 3600 fpm.

.

Looks like about an 800 foot descent starting from 2000.

Hope this is addressed by the training department - an unacceptable level of performance imho.

Might want to hire someone who can hand fly and takes the AP off at first indication of something not right instead of fiddling around with pushing buttons while the aircraft is clearly going into an abnormal state.

Meanwhile some companies will MANDATE use of FD at all stages, meaning your already busy PM needs to push buttons on the FCP just so you can manually fly. If something goes wrong, you go to the LOWEST level of automation (that is level 1, no FD, no AP) and hand fly as you are supposed to do.

[EPR]

A great video, that's still relevant of the over reliance of automation!
https://youtu.be/5ESJH1NLMLs?si=1zvdG8JGbgvom9MA

[goingnowherefast]

I've lost count the number of times I've been hand flying and the PM screws up the FD modes. Ignore the bars and fly raw data until it gets sorted. Usually happens on a go-around or some other unusual, high workload scenario.

[pelmet]

One can attempt to correct a situation like this by still using the automatics. For me, the important question is......how far do you let it go before giving up on the automatics. Off by 100'?.....maybe try a button push to get back in the proper mode. No recovery using the automatics?.....now may be the time to disconnect the autopilot. In other words....one does not necessarily have to immediately stop using all automatics right away.

It would appear in this case that they waited too long before going to hand flying.

[Blackdog0301]

For me, the important question is......how far do you let it go before giving up on the automatics.

If ATC notices, you waited too long. Simple as that.

I also think of it from a flight test perspective. +/-100 feet, +/-10 degrees, -5/+10 knots. If the automation isn't staying within these parameters, it should be turned off.

I'll be curious to hear the report on this one. Did something else contribute to the loss of altitude? Or was it an over reliance on the automation? If it was the latter, then this crew needs some serious retraining. These days, the autopilot goes on at 400, and comes off at 200. What's the fun in that? Hand fly from time to time!

[airway]

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"A Westjet Encore de Havilland Dash 8-400, registration C-FKWE performing flight WS-3405 from Vancouver,BC to Victoria,BC (Canada), was climbing out of Vancouver's runway 08R following the Stanley 5 Standard Instrument Departure and climbing to 2000 feet and was about to level at 2000 feet, when the crew received clearance to climb to 4000 feet and turn onto heading 170."

On this route, for the Q400, this is a typical clearance, and is a little tricky to manage. Just from memory, the Stanley 5 calls for a right turn at 1000' to about a 140 heading and level out at 2000". Then at some point ATC clears you for another right turn to 170 and climb to 4000'. This all happens very quickly and you have to be ready for it, and brief ahead of time. Usually we will brief the approach on the ground as well.

IMHO this is a good way to manage it:

After T/O do the regular gear up etc... Usually the FD is in pitch, nav and alt sel. At 1000' the PF starts turning right, engages the AP, calls flap 0, climb power, after T/O check, which the PM does and contacts departure and gets clearance to 4000' and another right turn. By the time the PM reads back the clearance to 4000', the aircraft is capturing 2000' and starting to nose down to level off at 2000'. By this point, the PF should have his hand near the altitude select knob, and if timed right turns the knob to 4000' right when the pitch is between 5 and 10 degrees, then selects hdg, and turns the heading knob to 170. The FD automatically goes to pitch and alt sel mode (confirm of course) and levels off at 4000'. Do not touch the pitch wheel. If you touch the pitch wheel, alt sel will cancel, and you will blow past your clearance altitude. Generally I like having the AP on for this, because it happens so fast and the PM can be easily get overloaded doing everything plus monitoring the PF closer than usual, if you know what I mean.

Of course you need to listen carefully to the departure clearance, because sometimes it is different.





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[Eric Janson]

IMHO this is a good way to manage it:

After T/O do the regular gear up etc... Usually the FD is in pitch, nav and alt sel. At 1000' the PF starts turning right, engages the AP, calls flap 0, climb power, after T/O check, which the PM does and contacts departure and gets clearance to 4000' and another right turn. By the time the PM reads back the clearance to 4000', the aircraft is capturing 2000' and starting to nose down to level off at 2000'. By this point, the PF should have his hand near the altitude select knob, and if timed right turns the knob to 4000' right when the pitch is between 5 and 10 degrees, then selects hdg, and turns the heading knob to 170. The FD automatically goes to pitch and alt sel mode (confirm of course) and levels off at 4000'. Do not touch the pitch wheel. If you touch the pitch wheel, alt sel will cancel, and you will blow past your clearance altitude. Generally I like having the AP on for this, because it happens so fast and the PM can be easily get overloaded doing everything plus monitoring the PF closer than usual, if you know what I mean.

Sounds straightforward enough - will be interesting to find out how the incident crew ended up in a 2200 fpm descent.

2000 is a very low initial altitude. It's 5000 for jets. Maybe it should be increased for non-jet aircraft.

I'd delay the after take-off checklist in this situation - no rush to do this imho.

[airway]

IMHO this is a good way to manage it:

After T/O do the regular gear up etc... Usually the FD is in pitch, nav and alt sel. At 1000' the PF starts turning right, engages the AP, calls flap 0, climb power, after T/O check, which the PM does and contacts departure and gets clearance to 4000' and another right turn. By the time the PM reads back the clearance to 4000', the aircraft is capturing 2000' and starting to nose down to level off at 2000'. By this point, the PF should have his hand near the altitude select knob, and if timed right turns the knob to 4000' right when the pitch is between 5 and 10 degrees, then selects hdg, and turns the heading knob to 170. The FD automatically goes to pitch and alt sel mode (confirm of course) and levels off at 4000'. Do not touch the pitch wheel. If you touch the pitch wheel, alt sel will cancel, and you will blow past your clearance altitude. Generally I like having the AP on for this, because it happens so fast and the PM can be easily get overloaded doing everything plus monitoring the PF closer than usual, if you know what I mean.

Sounds straightforward enough - will be interesting to find out how the incident crew ended up in a 2200 fpm descent.

2000 is a very low initial altitude. It's 5000 for jets. Maybe it should be increased for non-jet aircraft.

I'd delay the after take-off checklist in this situation - no rush to do this imho.

Yes, the after T/O checklist is done later, when you have time. It's just the flow you do at 1000'.

[Lurch]

On this route, for the Q400, this is a typical clearance, and is a little tricky to manage.

How is turning 30 degrees and climbing an extra 2000 feet "Tricky"

If you are so over worked by that maneuver I suggest maybe leaving the After T/O checks until you have a bit more time.

[Eric Janson]

Meanwhile some companies will MANDATE use of FD at all stages, meaning your already busy PM needs to push buttons on the FCP just so you can manually fly. If something goes wrong, you go to the LOWEST level of automation (that is level 1, no FD, no AP) and hand fly as you are supposed to do.

Automation is a tool - to be used correctly as required to aid in flying the aircraft.

It seems too many people now are using it as a crutch.

Several accidents have featured crews unable to fly the aircraft with minor failures requiring manual flying.

I've always been taught to turn off the FDs if you are not going to follow them.

On the airbus it's mandatory to turn off both FDs for several procedures.
-TCAS RA.
-Visual circuit/Circling approach.
-Visual part of a 2D/3D/non precision approach.
-If you need autothrust 'SPEED' mode (as in the 3 examples above).

airbus even has a procedure for a 'No FD take-off'

Cycling the FDs will engage them in basic modes (Heading/Vertical speed for airbus).

[J31]

On this route, for the Q400, this is a typical clearance, and is a little tricky to manage.

How is turning 30 degrees and climbing an extra 2000 feet "Tricky"

If you are so over worked by that maneuver I suggest maybe leaving the After T/O checks until you have a bit more time.

When your airplane is quickly capable of +5000 fpm climb rates, that further 2000 ft can go very fast.

The "trick" is to allow the autopilot to reduce the rate of climb as it captures 2000 ft BEFORE selecting 4000 ft. If timed properly you will end up with a 1500 fpm climb from 2000 to 4000 ft.

[J31]

My theory:

When the autopilot was engaged it had acquired the level off of 2000 ft in a very high rate of VSI. Then 4000 ft was entered but the autopilot had already blown through 2000 ft and had gone to a negative VSI to capture 2000 ft. With 4000 was selected, it continued in the negative VSI descending below 2000 ft.

While all this is going on while they were turning and pull power off to control the speed.

I think there was lots of heads down when BOTH pilots should have been monitoring.

FLY THE AIRPLANE FIRST!

ORDER PIZZA (FGCP), MAKE SURE YOU GET THE PIZZA YOU ORDERED (Airplane does what you want it to do)!

[pelmet]

On this route, for the Q400, this is a typical clearance, and is a little tricky to manage.

How is turning 30 degrees and climbing an extra 2000 feet "Tricky"

If you are so over worked by that maneuver I suggest maybe leaving the After T/O checks until you have a bit more time.

When your airplane is quickly capable of +5000 fpm climb rates, that further 2000 ft can go very fast.

The "trick" is to allow the autopilot to reduce the rate of climb as it captures 2000 ft BEFORE selecting 4000 ft. If timed properly you will end up with a 1500 fpm climb from 2000 to 4000 ft.

What about simply reducing climb power. I know that you don't have things like CLB2 on Boeings but is it really mandatory to run the PW100 at full climb power. I don't remember that restriction when I operated them, but I didn't have an excess horsepower situation.

I remember in the old days on an old jet, hand flying the near empty aircraft on a short leg with few pax and not much fuel in the winter. It was a regular flight and lasted 20 minutes. Initial climb rate was 6000 fpm. The SID was runway heading to 5K. One simply pulled the power back to about half thrust at perhaps 3000' and all was easy(lessened the likelihood of TCAS TA's as well with conflicting traffic descending to 6000').

A more modern Boeing aircraft seemed to be a problem on go-arounds with TOGA thrust on a go-around and speeds increasing quickly and low altitude level-offs(1000' at JFK runway 31L being an extreme example). I simply would press TOGA and once stabilized and climbing, press FLCH. All of a sudden, the thrust levers come way back and things are under control(a few other button selections might be necessary for proper management but now you are not on a rocket and have time).

People seem to like to continue climbing at massive climb rates and wonder why things go wrong.

[Blackdog0301]

On this route, for the Q400, this is a typical clearance, and is a little tricky to manage.

How is turning 30 degrees and climbing an extra 2000 feet "Tricky"

If you are so over worked by that maneuver I suggest maybe leaving the After T/O checks until you have a bit more time.

When your airplane is quickly capable of +5000 fpm climb rates, that further 2000 ft can go very fast.

The Q is not capable of 5000fpm. To say that it's capable would mean that it can sustain it. It most certainly can not. If you're going 5000fpm, you are either out of control, or bleeding off airspeed quicker than you can say Jack Robinson. Heck, a 172 could be "capable" of a 5000fpm climb momentarily if you tried.

I get what you're trying to say, but while the Q has decent performance, a 2000 foot level off after takeoff is not complicated.

[airway]

What about simply reducing climb power. I know that you don't have things like CLB2 on Boeings but is it really mandatory to run the PW100 at full climb power. I don't remember that restriction when I operated them, but I didn't have an excess horsepower situation.

I remember in the old days on an old jet, hand flying the near empty aircraft on a short leg with few pax and not much fuel in the winter. It was a regular flight and lasted 20 minutes. Initial climb rate was 6000 fpm. The SID was runway heading to 5K. One simply pulled the power back to about half thrust at perhaps 3000' and all was easy(lessened the likelihood of TCAS TA's as well with conflicting traffic descending to 6000').

A more modern Boeing aircraft seemed to be a problem on go-arounds with TOGA thrust and speeds increasing quickly and low altitude level-offs(1000' at JFK runway 31L being an extreme example). I simply would press TOGA and once stabilized and climbing, press FLCH. All of a sudden, the thrust levers come way back and things are under control(a few other button selections might be necessary for proper management but now you are not on a rocket and have time).

People seem to like to continue climbing at massive climb rates and wonder why things go wrong.

Initial climb rate can be 3000 FPM in a half full plane.
Reducing power above 1000' is an option. You will for sure have to reduce power during the level off at 4000' to stay below 250 kts.

Just to clarify, the after T/O flow at 1000' takes 2 seconds. All you are doing at that point is confirming the bleeds are set properly. You do not do the complete after T/O flow or checklist at that time.

Also, this was Jazz SOP. I don't know what the Encore SOP is.




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