What will Air Canada pilots do with their $0 bonus?

[piedpiper]

I'm not following you at all. EBITDAR is lower than EBITDA, not the other way around.

Brother.... WHAT?

LMAO

[altiplano]

Lies, Damned lies, Accounting...

All lies and hidden money anyway...

In the past the Association has tasked a working group to audit the numbers and verify actual payouts accurately. They didn't just flip EBITDAR for EBITDA...

Have you written your rep and asked what they do?

[noreasterYHZ]

Lies, Damned lies, Accounting...

All lies and hidden money anyway...

In the past the Association has tasked a working group to audit the numbers and verify actual payouts accurately. They didn't just flip EBITDAR for EBITDA...

Have you written your rep and asked what they do?

I assume ALPA is not going to want to admit to this massive concession and Yes voting MEC members aren't interested into drawing any attention to it.

I mean we are saying we pattern bargained but yet had to take concessions. That isn't "Pattern Bargaining", this is a race to the bottom. Embarrassing to be the largest pilot group doing this.

If Delta/United/Westjet can share profits...so can Air Canada...especially after bragging about record revenues.

[PositiveRate27]

I emailed the union and the response was that this year’s results would not have lead to a max payout. In order to achieve that the EBITDA margin would have needed to reach 16.5%. At a 14% margin, we would have received a payout percentage of 1.24% which, based on the assumed payroll numbers and for a pilot making $250K in 2025, would result in a payout of ~$3000.

Of note, the financial results for 2024 would have lead to no payout under the old profit share regime.



You can reach out to your union rep and have them explain it in detail, or perhaps you can explain to them why they are wrong. If they are wrong and you have identified that you are correct, you should educate them so they can be best armed in the future.

Personally I’ve been at AC for 8 years and have received a full pay out once. I’ll take guaranteed money in my pocket every year, with language still in the contract for profit sharing if we have an excellent year. The profit share language isn’t gone, but the triggers have changed. That is something that can be changed back going forwards if that is a priority for the membership. Fill out your surveys and get involved.

[cdnavater]

Lies, Damned lies, Accounting...

All lies and hidden money anyway...

In the past the Association has tasked a working group to audit the numbers and verify actual payouts accurately. They didn't just flip EBITDAR for EBITDA...

Have you written your rep and asked what they do?

I assume ALPA is not going to want to admit to this massive concession and Yes voting MEC members aren't interested into drawing any attention to it.

I mean we are saying we pattern bargained but yet had to take concessions. That isn't "Pattern Bargaining", this is a race to the bottom. Embarrassing to be the largest pilot group doing this.

If Delta/United/Westjet can share profits...so can Air Canada...especially after bragging about record revenues.

I don’t understand this mentality, did you make a net gain, biggest gain in the history of bargaining at AC or not!
You did not take concessions, you traded a possibility of a payout for a bigger raise and you guys going on and on and on and on………. Will not change that! In the history of labour has any group negotiated everything they wanted ever, it’s literally a give and take situation.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

I emailed the union and the response was that this year’s results would not have lead to a max payout. In order to achieve that the EBITDA margin would have needed to reach 16.5%. At a 14% margin, we would have received a payout percentage of 1.24% which, based on the assumed payroll numbers and for a pilot making $250K in 2025, would result in a payout of ~$3000.

Of note, the financial results for 2024 would have lead to no payout under the old profit share regime.



You can reach out to your union rep and have them explain it in detail, or perhaps you can explain to them why they are wrong. If they are wrong and you have identified that you are correct, you should educate them so they can be best armed in the future.

Personally I’ve been at AC for 8 years and have received a full pay out once. I’ll take guaranteed money in my pocket every year, with language still in the contract for profit sharing if we have an excellent year. The profit share language isn’t gone, but the triggers have changed. That is something that can be changed back going forwards if that is a priority for the membership. Fill out your surveys and get involved.

LMAO...

You ain't getting back profit sharing from a profitable airline.

Ask when Delta/United etc go their lucrative profit sharing...it wasn't during profitable times.

Taking concessions for gains is NOT Pattern Bargaining

[thepoors]

I’ll take guaranteed money in my pocket every year, with language still in the contract for profit sharing if we have an excellent year. The profit share language isn’t gone, but the triggers have changed. That is something that can be changed back going forwards if that is a priority for the membership. Fill out your surveys and get involved.

This is a bogus line that somebody at ALPA came up with and now gets parroted like it's a fact. It's nothing but coping. The salary raises weren't (and shouldn't be) dependent on this. The very principle of a bonus is that company is doing well and therefore has the money to award it's employees - separate from regular payroll. The company would love to pocket that money instead of spreading it around, and ALPA has allowed them to do just that.

The loss of profit sharing in this contract was a massive concession whether you want to admit it or not. And you people are dreaming if you think the company will ever allow those triggers to come back down to a realistic level where we receive any kind of payout.

[30westpirate]

Been here for 15 years, I’ll take the guaranteed money over a profit share. Too many geopolitical uncertainties and an overall weak economy.

The previous profit share was tied to a 2% a year raise, and we got hosed during those times while everyone else made out very well.

[FelixGustof]

Been here for 15 years, I’ll take the guaranteed money over a profit share. Too many geopolitical uncertainties and an overall weak economy.

The previous profit share was tied to a 2% a year raise, and we got hosed during those times while everyone else made out very well.

Lol...you do realize you can have BOTH?

Man you guys deserve to be the laughing stock

[30westpirate]

Been here for 15 years, I’ll take the guaranteed money over a profit share. Too many geopolitical uncertainties and an overall weak economy.

The previous profit share was tied to a 2% a year raise, and we got hosed during those times while everyone else made out very well.

Lol...you do realize you can have BOTH?

Man you guys deserve to be the laughing stock

Sure, laughing stocks for getting 42% raises. Name another Canadian carrier that walked away with such a percentage.

See what the FA got handed in arbitration. They really showed the company.

[piedpiper]

Been here for 15 years, I’ll take the guaranteed money over a profit share. Too many geopolitical uncertainties and an overall weak economy.

The previous profit share was tied to a 2% a year raise, and we got hosed during those times while everyone else made out very well.

Lol...you do realize you can have BOTH?

Man you guys deserve to be the laughing stock

Sure, laughing stocks for getting 42% raises. Name another Canadian carrier that walked away with such a percentage.

See what the FA got handed in arbitration. They really showed the company.

Yet I still make less as a AC CA than the 737 FO I met from Delta a few weeks ago.

Flight Attendants are replaceable in 6 weeks with a new hire off the street. There is zero comparison and pilots need to stop doing it.

[CPU2000]

Been here for 15 years, I’ll take the guaranteed money over a profit share. Too many geopolitical uncertainties and an overall weak economy.

The previous profit share was tied to a 2% a year raise, and we got hosed during those times while everyone else made out very well.

Lol...you do realize you can have BOTH?

Man you guys deserve to be the laughing stock

Sure, laughing stocks for getting 42% raises. Name another Canadian carrier that walked away with such a percentage.

See what the FA got handed in arbitration. They really showed the company.

Starting pay less than Flair, only airline without a bonus plan, still have flat pay, no true trip trade system, cant even bid a RAP, 18 days of short call reserve, yes...perhaps the 737 pilots at Buffalo are impressed.

Barely beat WJ pay while they have a proper monthly guarantee, Air Transat is broke AF but has better quality of life.

And keep comparing yourself to Flight Attendants lol

[cdnavater]

Lol...you do realize you can have BOTH?

Man you guys deserve to be the laughing stock

Sure, laughing stocks for getting 42% raises. Name another Canadian carrier that walked away with such a percentage.

See what the FA got handed in arbitration. They really showed the company.

Yet I still make less as a AC CA than the 737 FO I met from Delta a few weeks ago.

Flight Attendants are replaceable in 6 weeks with a new hire off the street. There is zero comparison and pilots need to stop doing it.

I don’t think that was the point, the point was a 42% increase in pay!
For the sake of argument, what would the percentage have been to get all AC pilots to par, by par I mean cdn equivalent not cdn to usd exchange?
My guess, depending on equipment, it would have been somewhere around 100% for Captains and between 100 and 200% increase for FO, sound about right?
Now, ask yourself if this was even remotely possible in one contract!
I can guarantee that you would have ended up in arbitration after being forced back to work and had you gone on strike for these absolutely ludicrous demands, you would have been vilified by the government and the public and like it or not, we are in Canada and the hope of pattern bargaining with a country that doesn’t want your Canadian skills is never going to happen!
You should focus on going forward, the past is done, move on!

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Sure, laughing stocks for getting 42% raises. Name another Canadian carrier that walked away with such a percentage.

See what the FA got handed in arbitration. They really showed the company.

Yet I still make less as a AC CA than the 737 FO I met from Delta a few weeks ago.

Flight Attendants are replaceable in 6 weeks with a new hire off the street. There is zero comparison and pilots need to stop doing it.

I don’t think that was the point, the point was a 42% increase in pay!
For the sake of argument, what would the percentage have been to get all AC pilots to par, by par I mean cdn equivalent not cdn to usd exchange?
My guess, depending on equipment, it would have been somewhere around 100% for Captains and between 100 and 200% increase for FO, sound about right?
Now, ask yourself if this was even remotely possible in one contract!
I can guarantee that you would have ended up in arbitration after being forced back to work and had you gone on strike for these absolutely ludicrous demands, you would have been vilified by the government and the public and like it or not, we are in Canada and the hope of pattern bargaining with a country that doesn’t want your Canadian skills is never going to happen!
You should focus on going forward, the past is done, move on!

Definitely time to move on...but having a bunch of defensive fragile union leaders who cant get over the fact some didn't like having concessions during a historic moment is a huge liability. Time for some fresh faces & new blood involved

[piedpiper]

haha, fresh faces. new blood.

if you don't think like them you are not welcome. Like just look at how one of the top FSAG volunteers with a career behind him was turfed because he wants to do his job well.

[thepoors]

Been here for 15 years, I’ll take the guaranteed money over a profit share. Too many geopolitical uncertainties and an overall weak economy.

The previous profit share was tied to a 2% a year raise, and we got hosed during those times while everyone else made out very well.

Lol...you do realize you can have BOTH?

Man you guys deserve to be the laughing stock

The amount of guys at this company with this loser mentality is depressing. We will never get anywhere while a large portion of the pilot group thinks like this. Like a 42% raise off a 10 year old contract is something to celebrate. Absolutely pathetic.

[Protonpilot]

Good to have this discussion but shocking we have to do this...

Quick explainer on EBITDA vs. EBITDAR for airlines:

**EBITDA** = Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation & amortization.
**EBITDAR** = EBITDA **plus Rent** (aircraft operating leases).

For airlines, that “R” matters.

Example:

Let’s say an airline has:
• Revenue: $20B
• EBITDA: $2.8B → **14% margin**
• Aircraft lease expense: $600M

EBITDAR simply adds lease expense back:

$2.8B + $0.6B = $3.4B

Now the margin is:

$3.4B ÷ $20B = **17%**

That’s a **3-point swing** in margin

Airlines lease a large portion of their fleets. Lease expense can run into the hundreds of millions (or billions) annually. Adding that back materially changes margin-based triggers.

So when someone says EBITDA and EBITDAR are “basically the same” for airlines, that’s just not accurate — especially in a lease-heavy business model.

So every EBITDA number you see...EBITDAR is HIGHER

Oops. Thanks for setting me straight on that. I shouldn't try and interpret accounting after my 5:00 PM pint. :-0

I was led down the garden path by the 2019 financials, which show the 2018 EBITDAR margin as being lower than the 2018 EBITDA margin by 2.0%. Maybe some late reporting that lowered both of those margins with a restatement?

[altiplano]

We've beaten this to death before...

I'll take guaranteed salary over profit share every day.

Any time I can convert a capped variable payment - a payment that is dependent on what is the least frequently profitable industry in the world profiting, from a company with a background of baggage, mismanagement, bad faith activity - into a guaranteed pay increase that compounds every year in future wage increases I will take the guarantee every time.

We can argue until we're blue in the face if we could have got the same increase and kept profit share, but it doesn't matter.

In 2014 we were sold 10 years of low pay so we could get profit share and pass travel like the executives. Would you take less pay to get profit share again?

Yeah yeah yeah - you can have both, but I'd rather more of the guaranteed one than both.

[30westpirate]

Been here for 15 years, I’ll take the guaranteed money over a profit share. Too many geopolitical uncertainties and an overall weak economy.

The previous profit share was tied to a 2% a year raise, and we got hosed during those times while everyone else made out very well.

Lol...you do realize you can have BOTH?

Man you guys deserve to be the laughing stock

The amount of guys at this company with this loser mentality is depressing. We will never get anywhere while a large portion of the pilot group thinks like this. Like a 42% raise off a 10 year old contract is something to celebrate. Absolutely pathetic.

Talk about tunnel vision, stuck on one thing, year 1-2 pay. Which btw got the highest up lift between 60-70%.

‘But Flair starting wage…..’ does Flair have a pension? Or a mix fleet or the potential to make over $450k? Or the job stability? Or the fully paid employer health benefits?

[piedpiper]

Lol...you do realize you can have BOTH?

Man you guys deserve to be the laughing stock

The amount of guys at this company with this loser mentality is depressing. We will never get anywhere while a large portion of the pilot group thinks like this. Like a 42% raise off a 10 year old contract is something to celebrate. Absolutely pathetic.

Talk about tunnel vision, stuck on one thing, year 1-2 pay. Which btw got the highest up lift between 60-70%.

‘But Flair starting wage…..’ does Flair have a pension? Or a mix fleet or the potential to make over $450k? Or the job stability? Or the fully paid employer health benefits?

Dude even our NB CA pay is a joke. Sub 300k CAD for most. Potential to make 450k? sure maybe for the top 10%

I make less than FOs in the USA, CAs at regionals in the USA and have a way worse lifestyle. Sure the bump was nice, but with the shit ass low DBMs for the last year and the terrible work life balance I dont see much improved for me on a personal basis. $800 a month more after tax from pre TA pay rates.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

We've beaten this to death before...

I'll take guaranteed salary over profit share every day.

Any time I can convert a capped variable payment - a payment that is dependent on what is the least frequently profitable industry in the world profiting, from a company with a background of baggage, mismanagement, bad faith activity - into a guaranteed pay increase that compounds every year in future wage increases I will take the guarantee every time.

We can argue until we're blue in the face if we could have got the same increase and kept profit share, but it doesn't matter.

In 2014 we were sold 10 years of low pay so we could get profit share and pass travel like the executives. Would you take less pay to get profit share again?

Yeah yeah yeah - you can have both, but I'd rather more of the guaranteed one than both.

Please while on a US or overseas layover, talk to some fellow ALPA pilots who already make way more than you while working less, and tell them about giving up your profit share to barely beat a low cost carrier.

They will be really impressed

[piedpiper]

Also ask them how much they pay for their pension contributions and benefits before talking about how great it is AC pays for benefits. Small time compared to what DAL/UAL pay for their pilots ON TOP of profit share/pay/working conditions.

We are an utter embarrasment.

[A310Heavy]

Lol...you do realize you can have BOTH?

Man you guys deserve to be the laughing stock

The amount of guys at this company with this loser mentality is depressing. We will never get anywhere while a large portion of the pilot group thinks like this. Like a 42% raise off a 10 year old contract is something to celebrate. Absolutely pathetic.

Talk about tunnel vision, stuck on one thing, year 1-2 pay. Which btw got the highest up lift between 60-70%.

‘But Flair starting wage…..’ does Flair have a pension? Or a mix fleet or the potential to make over $450k? Or the job stability? Or the fully paid employer health benefits?

"Potential"...lol

The OT whores to the south make over a $1 million US as NB CAs with all the soft pay rules and modern scheduling platforms.

[crystalpizza]

A much bigger problem to solve than pure dollar amounts/percentage increases is our entire formula pay scheme down to its roots. Currently our only pay scale that is remotely close to a US equivalent (within ~5%) is the 777 CA scale. Which is good in that sense, but when those airplanes retire and the 30t-lighter A350 becomes (presumably) the new largest airplane at Air Canada, if our pay system isn't overhauled by then, we risk a pay cut or negligible raise at the top end which impacts future bargaining. What we need is weight pay gone, FO percentage of captain rates brought way up, the current 777 rates solidified and all WB types brought up to match it, and NB CA pay brought up. The US big three have grouped pay for all large WB types (both on property and hypothetical) and a smaller pay gap between their NB and WB pilots than we do.

[piedpiper]

Going to be real fun when we start doing WB flying on NBs for NB pay. (XLR)