pAtTeRn bArGaInIng

[ZackMorris]

Now that it has been established that profit sharing was traded away under the banner of “pattern bargaining,” it is worth clarifying what pattern bargaining actually means.

Pattern bargaining is when one bargaining unit uses the gains achieved by another comparable group as the benchmark or floor in negotiations. When done properly, gains at one airline can put upward pressure on compensation at another, creating a ratcheting effect over time.

Pattern bargaining is NOT:

1. Manipulating pay formulas to create the appearance of exceeding another group.

At Air Canada, pilot pay is determined by a formula that includes aircraft weight and speed inputs applied to a base hourly flight pay factor. If those inputs are adjusted beyond aircraft specifications simply to generate a higher calculated rate, that is not true pattern bargaining. That is at best optics and worst fraudulent.

For example, the Boeing 737 MAX 8 has a published maximum takeoff weight of approximately 82 tonnes yet somehow in contract it says 93.4T. Using a materially higher weight input in a pay formula would not reflect the actual aircraft data. If the intent of pattern bargaining is to surpass another carrier’s 737 rate, that should be achieved through negotiated economic improvements, not through inflated formula inputs.

2. Trading away other compensation elements to claim a higher hourly rate.

If a group gives up profit sharing or other economic value in order to post a headline hourly rate that appears higher than another carrier’s, that is not a clean pattern. Total compensation matters. Comparing only one metric while conceding another does not represent a clear improvement in overall economics.

Pattern bargaining, when done properly, should raise the floor without offsetting concessions.

If the last round did not clearly match or exceed comparable peer agreements on a total compensation basis, then it is fair for members to question whether true pattern bargaining occurred. Ie the MEC & Negotiating Committee did not do their jobs properly.

With the next cycle approaching, the focus should be recognizing the faults and finding a mix of new blood & old to find better results. We all win when we find optimal results but we all lose when we have union leaders grasping to hold onto power.

[thepoors]

One of the few people here speaking any sense instead of making excuses for the failures.

[piedpiper]

Mix of old and new blood... that is a pipedream. It's going to be all the same people again mark my words. Expect to be underwhelmed.

[CGFCK]

Mix of old and new blood... that is a pipedream. It's going to be all the same people again mark my words. Expect to be underwhelmed.

Lol...they went with the exact same negots committee.

With 6, must be the largest negots committee in the history of ALPA?! It yuge

[piedpiper]

[Man_in_the_sky]

Unrelated but can we ban FO DMELLOW’s ad on avcanada…

Guy can’t do a captain ride and try to sell interview prep guide

[oldnbold]

Hopefully they threaten to resign if we vote No.

[flieslikeachicken]

Unrelated but can we ban FO DMELLOW’s ad on avcanada…

Guy can’t do a captain ride and try to sell interview prep guide

How can you use this forum without an ad blocker? You are like a Russian soldier running toward a Ukrainian trench with a broom and a cape.

[MontrealCanucks]

Hopefully they threaten to resign if we vote No.

This method of ramming a deal down the throat of members is tried & true.

Anyone who disagrees must be sent to the gulags of YEG.

[piedpiper]

Hopefully they threaten to resign if we vote No.

This method of ramming a deal down the throat of members is tried & true.

Anyone who disagrees must be sent to the gulags of YEG.

YEG Short hotel?

[Flyboy736]

Now that it has been established that profit sharing was traded away under the banner of “pattern bargaining,” it is worth clarifying what pattern bargaining actually means.

Pattern bargaining is when one bargaining unit uses the gains achieved by another comparable group as the benchmark or floor in negotiations. When done properly, gains at one airline can put upward pressure on compensation at another, creating a ratcheting effect over time.

Pattern bargaining is NOT:

1. Manipulating pay formulas to create the appearance of exceeding another group.

At Air Canada, pilot pay is determined by a formula that includes aircraft weight and speed inputs applied to a base hourly flight pay factor. If those inputs are adjusted beyond aircraft specifications simply to generate a higher calculated rate, that is not true pattern bargaining. That is at best optics and worst fraudulent.

For example, the Boeing 737 MAX 8 has a published maximum takeoff weight of approximately 82 tonnes yet somehow in contract it says 93.4T. Using a materially higher weight input in a pay formula would not reflect the actual aircraft data. If the intent of pattern bargaining is to surpass another carrier’s 737 rate, that should be achieved through negotiated economic improvements, not through inflated formula inputs.

2. Trading away other compensation elements to claim a higher hourly rate.

If a group gives up profit sharing or other economic value in order to post a headline hourly rate that appears higher than another carrier’s, that is not a clean pattern. Total compensation matters. Comparing only one metric while conceding another does not represent a clear improvement in overall economics.

Pattern bargaining, when done properly, should raise the floor without offsetting concessions.

If the last round did not clearly match or exceed comparable peer agreements on a total compensation basis, then it is fair for members to question whether true pattern bargaining occurred. Ie the MEC & Negotiating Committee did not do their jobs properly.

With the next cycle approaching, the focus should be recognizing the faults and finding a mix of new blood & old to find better results. We all win when we find optimal results but we all lose when we have union leaders grasping to hold onto power.

The 737 higher weight was based off the max 9. AC originally ordered it but canceled it. The weight never changed. I don't know why this is even a problem to you as Westjet looks at the dollar amount AC is getting paid the formula means nothing to the industry.

No one is claiming profit sharing should have been made non existent, but I'd argue higher fixed pay rate helps Westjet with their upcoming negotiations. Lot easier to point to fixed wages demanding more with their upcoming max 10 then demanding profit sharing.

[ZackMorris]

The 737 higher weight was based off the max 9.

Bro...Just Google the weight of the Max 9 and check what the contract says...those numbers are not the same...

Who told you this?!

[Man_in_the_sky]

Unrelated but can we ban FO DMELLOW’s ad on avcanada…

Guy can’t do a captain ride and try to sell interview prep guide

How can you use this forum without an ad blocker? You are like a Russian soldier running toward a Ukrainian trench with a broom and a cape.

I like to live dangerously

[Cypresshill]

ALPA is basically a grifting machine at this point. It’s time to modernize and come up with something better and much more suited to pilots in Canada.

[Cypresshill]

Too many “Strongly-worded letter” types.

[thepoors]

The same stooges were just reelected on the negotiating committee.

Lots of chatter going around about how some younger guys who wanted to run were directly mistreated/intimidated/disrespected because they voted no to the current contract. Any opposition to the actions of previous MEC labelled as "disloyal" and you are effectively shunned. No chance of getting a fair shot.

ALPA leadership turning into quite the toxic little in-group (or was it all along). This feels like a speed run back to ACPA.

To all the retards on here telling people who are unhappy to stop complaining and volunteer, this is the kind of shit that keeps well adjusted people far away. Instead you have a bunch of egotistical sociopaths gatekeeping these committees. Bravo.

[PostmasterGeneral]

The same stooges were just reelected on the negotiating committee.

Lots of chatter going around about how some younger guys who wanted to run were directly mistreated/intimidated/disrespected because they voted no to the current contract. Any opposition to the actions of previous MEC labelled as "disloyal" and you are effectively shunned. No chance of getting a fair shot.

ALPA leadership turning into quite the toxic little in-group (or was it all along). This feels like a speed run back to ACPA.

To all the retards on here telling people who are unhappy to stop complaining and volunteer, this is the kind of shit that keeps well adjusted people far away. Instead you have a bunch of egotistical sociopaths gatekeeping these committees. Bravo.

Heard this also. I think A.W. Would have been an excellent candidate for the NC, now there's rumors that he was pressured into withdrawing his application? WTF is going on out there?

[ACPA2.0]

The same stooges were just reelected on the negotiating committee.

Lots of chatter going around about how some younger guys who wanted to run were directly mistreated/intimidated/disrespected because they voted no to the current contract. Any opposition to the actions of previous MEC labelled as "disloyal" and you are effectively shunned. No chance of getting a fair shot.

ALPA leadership turning into quite the toxic little in-group (or was it all along). This feels like a speed run back to ACPA.

To all the retards on here telling people who are unhappy to stop complaining and volunteer, this is the kind of shit that keeps well adjusted people far away. Instead you have a bunch of egotistical sociopaths gatekeeping these committees. Bravo.

Heard this also. I think A.W. Would have been an excellent candidate for the NC, now there's rumors that he was pressured into withdrawing his application? WTF is going on out there?

ACPA is back baby.

ACPA 2.0

[stall]

The same stooges were just reelected on the negotiating committee.

Lots of chatter going around about how some younger guys who wanted to run were directly mistreated/intimidated/disrespected because they voted no to the current contract. Any opposition to the actions of previous MEC labelled as "disloyal" and you are effectively shunned. No chance of getting a fair shot.

ALPA leadership turning into quite the toxic little in-group (or was it all along). This feels like a speed run back to ACPA.

To all the retards on here telling people who are unhappy to stop complaining and volunteer, this is the kind of shit that keeps well adjusted people far away. Instead you have a bunch of egotistical sociopaths gatekeeping these committees. Bravo.

Heard this also. I think A.W. Would have been an excellent candidate for the NC, now there's rumors that he was pressured into withdrawing his application? WTF is going on out there?

There are credible discussions that ACA union leadership has been collecting screenshots of members’ social media posts and DART comments and referencing them when individuals attempt to get involved. There is a clear agenda to build as many "Yes Men" around the current team. Look no further than the complete replication of the negotiating committee.

In addition, there have been issues of MEC members engaging in heavy drinking at meetings and confronting or cornering applicants who were not strong supporters of the deal.

Members should never feel that expressing an opinion — including opposing the so-called “World Class Contract” ...could later be used as a barrier to participation.

Engagement, debate, and even sharp disagreement are part of a healthy, member-driven union. This unfortunately is not one at this time.

[crashpadcommute]

The same stooges were just reelected on the negotiating committee.

Lots of chatter going around about how some younger guys who wanted to run were directly mistreated/intimidated/disrespected because they voted no to the current contract. Any opposition to the actions of previous MEC labelled as "disloyal" and you are effectively shunned. No chance of getting a fair shot.

ALPA leadership turning into quite the toxic little in-group (or was it all along). This feels like a speed run back to ACPA.

To all the retards on here telling people who are unhappy to stop complaining and volunteer, this is the kind of shit that keeps well adjusted people far away. Instead you have a bunch of egotistical sociopaths gatekeeping these committees. Bravo.

Heard this also. I think A.W. Would have been an excellent candidate for the NC, now there's rumors that he was pressured into withdrawing his application? WTF is going on out there?

There are credible discussions that ACA union leadership has been collecting screenshots of members’ social media posts and DART comments and referencing them when individuals attempt to get involved. There is a clear agenda to build as many "Yes Men" around the current team. Look no further than the complete replication of the negotiating committee.

In addition, there have been issues of MEC members engaging in heavy drinking at meetings and confronting or cornering applicants who were not strong supporters of the deal.

Members should never feel that expressing an opinion — including opposing the so-called “World Class Contract” ...could later be used as a barrier to participation.

Engagement, debate, and even sharp disagreement are part of a healthy, member-driven union. This unfortunately is not one at this time.

Brutal if true...

[unitatis super omnia]

The same stooges were just reelected on the negotiating committee.

Lots of chatter going around about how some younger guys who wanted to run were directly mistreated/intimidated/disrespected because they voted no to the current contract. Any opposition to the actions of previous MEC labelled as "disloyal" and you are effectively shunned. No chance of getting a fair shot.

ALPA leadership turning into quite the toxic little in-group (or was it all along). This feels like a speed run back to ACPA.

To all the retards on here telling people who are unhappy to stop complaining and volunteer, this is the kind of shit that keeps well adjusted people far away. Instead you have a bunch of egotistical sociopaths gatekeeping these committees. Bravo.

Only the biggest of cowards would come up with such spineless excuses not to even try, unlike some others who at least made an effort and interviewed. It gives me a good laugh to think of how badly you would cower against the Company if you're too lazy and intimidated to even go speak to the MEC. O'Brien, Murray and the boys would eat you alive...

[thepoors]

The same stooges were just reelected on the negotiating committee.

Lots of chatter going around about how some younger guys who wanted to run were directly mistreated/intimidated/disrespected because they voted no to the current contract. Any opposition to the actions of previous MEC labelled as "disloyal" and you are effectively shunned. No chance of getting a fair shot.

ALPA leadership turning into quite the toxic little in-group (or was it all along). This feels like a speed run back to ACPA.

To all the retards on here telling people who are unhappy to stop complaining and volunteer, this is the kind of shit that keeps well adjusted people far away. Instead you have a bunch of egotistical sociopaths gatekeeping these committees. Bravo.

Only the biggest of cowards would come up with such spineless excuses not to even try, unlike some others who at least made an effort and interviewed. It gives me a good laugh to think of how badly you would cower against the Company if you're too lazy and intimidated to even go speak to the MEC. O'Brien, Murray and the boys would eat you alive...

Thanks for proving my point perfectly. Have better things to do with my time than deal with unhinged people like yourself.

[CGFCK]

The same stooges were just reelected on the negotiating committee.

Lots of chatter going around about how some younger guys who wanted to run were directly mistreated/intimidated/disrespected because they voted no to the current contract. Any opposition to the actions of previous MEC labelled as "disloyal" and you are effectively shunned. No chance of getting a fair shot.

ALPA leadership turning into quite the toxic little in-group (or was it all along). This feels like a speed run back to ACPA.

To all the retards on here telling people who are unhappy to stop complaining and volunteer, this is the kind of shit that keeps well adjusted people far away. Instead you have a bunch of egotistical sociopaths gatekeeping these committees. Bravo.

Only the biggest of cowards would come up with such spineless excuses not to even try, unlike some others who at least made an effort and interviewed. It gives me a good laugh to think of how badly you would cower against the Company if you're too lazy and intimidated to even go speak to the MEC. O'Brien, Murray and the boys would eat you alive...

Here comes the great Air Canada MEC to do some thugging...

In Unity!

[piedpiper]

ACPA 2.0 is right.

This MEC loves the say how they need volunteers and complain that people don't show up to help. It's pretty clear it's a members only club at this point and if you don't think like them you are not welcome. Why would someone waste their time knowing they aren't wanted?

[unitatis super omnia]

The same stooges were just reelected on the negotiating committee.

Lots of chatter going around about how some younger guys who wanted to run were directly mistreated/intimidated/disrespected because they voted no to the current contract. Any opposition to the actions of previous MEC labelled as "disloyal" and you are effectively shunned. No chance of getting a fair shot.

ALPA leadership turning into quite the toxic little in-group (or was it all along). This feels like a speed run back to ACPA.

To all the retards on here telling people who are unhappy to stop complaining and volunteer, this is the kind of shit that keeps well adjusted people far away. Instead you have a bunch of egotistical sociopaths gatekeeping these committees. Bravo.

Only the biggest of cowards would come up with such spineless excuses not to even try, unlike some others who at least made an effort and interviewed. It gives me a good laugh to think of how badly you would cower against the Company if you're too lazy and intimidated to even go speak to the MEC. O'Brien, Murray and the boys would eat you alive...

Thanks for proving my point perfectly. Have better things to do with my time than deal with unhinged people like yourself.

You never have a coherent point other than non-stop whinging and painting yourself as a demented troll. Calling honest, hard working volunteers retards and stooges is completely disgraceful and I'll proudly call you out every time for it. You're cowardly behavior is a stain on unionism and our profession.