pAtTeRn bArGaInIng

[piedpiper]

It's funny how so many people forget who the enemy is. The ACPA 2.0 types seem to think it's people who don't view things the same as them, who call out poor contract language and poor use of leverage or vote manipulation. If you are not with them, you are against them. These individuals need a reminder of why they are there, why they were elected and who they answer to.

[piedpiper]

Good point about flat pay because that's where the most heavily concentrated anger is coming from and rightly so. The TA fell far too short in that area so I understand how pissed off that group is. But the FO seniority list in YWG looks like most had recently gone through the same 4 year cycle of shit wages like everyone else. As for the lack of widebody and commuter pilots, I felt they received some of the best parts of the deal with the biggest dollar pay raises and commuting policy. So that demographic was already well represented elsewhere.

Again, I think we're focusing on the wrong things and splitting hairs on who is in what base won't yield anything but disunity. Given the growing uncertainty in our bargaining environment with geopolitical instability and trade wars, our unity is the only thing we can rely on to fuel improvements for CA2 in 2027 otherwise it's a lost cause. It's up to us to resist our worst instincts of self destruction after the dust has settled on our current CA and regroup starting now.

So what is unity to you Unitatis? Is it falling in line and keeping your mouth shut while the big bosses do the thinking? Is it wearing your lanyard? Showing up to Family events like airshow? Because for someone who touts unity in many previous comments from last year you sure love to talk shit about people who you disagree with the direction ALPA is currently going in. ThePoors can be a bit agressive in the way he types, that I can agree with. But you would be naieve to not realize there are a lot of people who are very unhappy with the circumstances surrounding CA1, it's implementation or lack thereof, and what seems to be the boys club that the MEC and committees has turned in to.

edit: just to be clear this is me asking a legit question. The apathy on the line is very obvious these days, the unity and engagment is really bad. How do you suggest we fix this going into next year? Because I dont see how continuing to shit on people who have different opinions to the direction of leadership gets us anywhere positive.

[flyingcanuck]

This MEC loves the say how they need volunteers and complain that people don't show up to help. It's pretty clear it's a members only club at this point and if you don't think like them you are not welcome. Why would someone waste their time knowing they aren't wanted?

unfortunately I am in agreement. I reached out with some ideas and wanted to volunteer, was ignored for months and was told no thats not how we do things. I cant believe how bad a job their doing comms wise, no one has any idea who os steering the ship. I wont go as far to say they are ACPA yet, no evidence their taking bribes or pro company, but the lack of communication and transparency is killing the unity.

[YULFacebook]

Who needs MEC Level Comms when you got YUL Facebook?

Its all the union news you need.

Tabarnac!

[GeoffPilot]

Good point about flat pay because that's where the most heavily concentrated anger is coming from and rightly so. The TA fell far too short in that area so I understand how pissed off that group is. But the FO seniority list in YWG looks like most had recently gone through the same 4 year cycle of shit wages like everyone else. As for the lack of widebody and commuter pilots, I felt they received some of the best parts of the deal with the biggest dollar pay raises and commuting policy. So that demographic was already well represented elsewhere.

Again, I think we're focusing on the wrong things and splitting hairs on who is in what base won't yield anything but disunity. Given the growing uncertainty in our bargaining environment with geopolitical instability and trade wars, our unity is the only thing we can rely on to fuel improvements for CA2 in 2027 otherwise it's a lost cause. It's up to us to resist our worst instincts of self destruction after the dust has settled on our current CA and regroup starting now.

So what is unity to you Unitatis? Is it falling in line and keeping your mouth shut while the big bosses do the thinking? Is it wearing your lanyard? Showing up to Family events like airshow? Because for someone who touts unity in many previous comments from last year you sure love to talk shit about people who you disagree with the direction ALPA is currently going in. ThePoors can be a bit agressive in the way he types, that I can agree with. But you would be naieve to not realize there are a lot of people who are very unhappy with the circumstances surrounding CA1, it's implementation or lack thereof, and what seems to be the boys club that the MEC and committees has turned in to.

edit: just to be clear this is me asking a legit question. The apathy on the line is very obvious these days, the unity and engagment is really bad. How do you suggest we fix this going into next year? Because I dont see how continuing to shit on people who have different opinions to the direction of leadership gets us anywhere positive.

These guys talked a big game against ACPA and hammered them about transparency, accountability, engagement, and communication.

Then when it is their turn, they literally completely suck at any kind of transparency about what the hell is going besides random disappearing committee heads, get on the defensive like you see on here when cornered on accountability, hate any kind of social media engagement outside of pom-poms towards what is happening, and literally send either nothing or 2 line emails about what the hell they are doing.

I don't see how on earth this team could produce anything other than an egg in the next round. Will be happy to be proven wrong.

Good luck.

[oldnbold]

Alcohol use should be banned from all union staff meetings, activities, and gatherings. If you want to get wasted do it on your own time not while discussing union matters. I'm disappointed if that is what is currently going on.
No hockey games, or any social activities with management either. These are not your buddies.

I can't wait for the youngest generation to take over the whole union. They are hardliners, not whatever we currently have.

[altiplano]

A few guys bitching and they haven't even called their reps with their questions... let alone showed up at a meeting. Or are we dwelling on the past here? It's all pretty vague innuendo about a conspiracy against the membership. What's your problem exactly? Be specific.

There are always problems though, problems with our employer which will never end - there's always something - not problems with (most of) the people working for us. We have a lot of good guys with the right picture working for the membership. Exception being there's always a couple dud elected reps, that's what you have to watch for, the company is always trying to get their moles in the room.

I don't have a problem with drinks at Union events, who cares? Have a few, fraternize with your colleagues, blow off some steam and get to know your Union brothers.

I agree with staying out of the company box at hockey games though, that's 100% subversion, we've seen it here, we've seen it on other properties. They company aren't our friends. Too navy if our guys are friends with pilot managers and want to be pilot managers... should be off the seniority list if you want to go into management.

[thepoors]

A few guys bitching and they haven't even called their reps with their questions... let alone showed up at a meeting. Or are we dwelling on the past here? It's all pretty vague innuendo about a conspiracy against the membership. What's your problem exactly? Be specific.

There are always problems though, problems with our employer which will never end - there's always something - not problems with (most of) the people working for us. We have a lot of good guys with the right picture working for the membership. Exception being there's always a couple dud elected reps, that's what you have to watch for, the company is always trying to get their moles in the room.

I don't have a problem with drinks at Union events, who cares? Have a few, fraternize with your colleagues, blow off some steam and get to know your Union brothers.

I agree with staying out of the company box at hockey games though, that's 100% subversion, we've seen it here, we've seen it on other properties. They company aren't our friends. Too navy if our guys are friends with pilot managers and want to be pilot managers... should be off the seniority list if you want to go into management.

Clearly you have no clue what's going on. The reference to alcohol is because there was a member in the running for the negotiating committee who was drunkenly accosted by the chair of another committee. This is a professional organization, not a frat. Although many of the senior members behave like juvenile clowns.

[altiplano]

I haven't heard that. Accosted? Seems like there's a story here.

Either way, it's one person, one event, and three stories.

I still stand by my statement:

I don't have a problem with drinks at Union events, who cares? Have a few, fraternize with your colleagues, blow off some steam and get to know your Union brothers.

[350driver]

Good point about flat pay because that's where the most heavily concentrated anger is coming from and rightly so. The TA fell far too short in that area so I understand how pissed off that group is. But the FO seniority list in YWG looks like most had recently gone through the same 4 year cycle of shit wages like everyone else. As for the lack of widebody and commuter pilots, I felt they received some of the best parts of the deal with the biggest dollar pay raises and commuting policy. So that demographic was already well represented elsewhere.

Again, I think we're focusing on the wrong things and splitting hairs on who is in what base won't yield anything but disunity. Given the growing uncertainty in our bargaining environment with geopolitical instability and trade wars, our unity is the only thing we can rely on to fuel improvements for CA2 in 2027 otherwise it's a lost cause. It's up to us to resist our worst instincts of self destruction after the dust has settled on our current CA and regroup starting now.

So what is unity to you Unitatis? Is it falling in line and keeping your mouth shut while the big bosses do the thinking? Is it wearing your lanyard? Showing up to Family events like airshow? Because for someone who touts unity in many previous comments from last year you sure love to talk shit about people who you disagree with the direction ALPA is currently going in. ThePoors can be a bit agressive in the way he types, that I can agree with. But you would be naieve to not realize there are a lot of people who are very unhappy with the circumstances surrounding CA1, it's implementation or lack thereof, and what seems to be the boys club that the MEC and committees has turned in to.

edit: just to be clear this is me asking a legit question. The apathy on the line is very obvious these days, the unity and engagment is really bad. How do you suggest we fix this going into next year? Because I dont see how continuing to shit on people who have different opinions to the direction of leadership gets us anywhere positive.

These guys talked a big game against ACPA and hammered them about transparency, accountability, engagement, and communication.

Then when it is their turn, they literally completely suck at any kind of transparency about what the hell is going besides random disappearing committee heads, get on the defensive like you see on here when cornered on accountability, hate any kind of social media engagement outside of pom-poms towards what is happening, and literally send either nothing or 2 line emails about what the hell they are doing.

I don't see how on earth this team could produce anything other than an egg in the next round. Will be happy to be proven wrong.

Good luck.

hahahahaha, an egg. That one made me rofl.

[BigGreen]

A few guys bitching and they haven't even called their reps with their questions... let alone showed up at a meeting. Or are we dwelling on the past here? It's all pretty vague innuendo about a conspiracy against the membership. What's your problem exactly? Be specific.

There are always problems though, problems with our employer which will never end - there's always something - not problems with (most of) the people working for us. We have a lot of good guys with the right picture working for the membership. Exception being there's always a couple dud elected reps, that's what you have to watch for, the company is always trying to get their moles in the room.

I don't have a problem with drinks at Union events, who cares? Have a few, fraternize with your colleagues, blow off some steam and get to know your Union brothers.

I agree with staying out of the company box at hockey games though, that's 100% subversion, we've seen it here, we've seen it on other properties. They company aren't our friends. Too navy if our guys are friends with pilot managers and want to be pilot managers... should be off the seniority list if you want to go into management.

I love the old "call your reps".

Like every time there is a deal or a rumor you have to "call your rep".

I have an idea...why doesn't this multi million dollar union learn to communicate. I spend thousands per year in dues, its the least they could do.

They can start with explaining what happened to the last 2 years of profit sharing.

[altiplano]

Yeah call your reps and get the real story. Otherwise you're ignorant and perpetuating bullshit rumours like school girls.

That's what it is more and more from what I'm seeing. Rumours being tossed around in bullshit whatsapp groups and people that feeding off it that don't have a clue because they can't be bothered to ask someone. A whole batch of guys that want to be spoonfed like children. We're fucking adults, take responsibility and engage.

[piedpiper]

Yeah call your reps and get the real story. Otherwise you're ignorant and perpetuating bullshit rumours like school girls.

That's what it is more and more from what I'm seeing. Rumours being tossed around in bullshit whatsapp groups and people that feeding off it that don't have a clue because they can't be bothered to ask someone. A whole batch of guys that want to be spoonfed like children. We're fucking adults, take responsibility and engage.

Did you call your rep?

[Mr.Worldwide]

They can start with explaining what happened to the last 2 years of profit sharing.

That's been explained a million times in emails, roadshows, Q&A's, council meetings, podcasts etc. We exchanged variable pay for guaranteed income. How dumb are you guys?

[altiplano]

Yeah call your reps and get the real story. Otherwise you're ignorant and perpetuating bullshit rumours like school girls.

That's what it is more and more from what I'm seeing. Rumours being tossed around in bullshit whatsapp groups and people that feeding off it that don't have a clue because they can't be bothered to ask someone. A whole batch of guys that want to be spoonfed like children. We're fucking adults, take responsibility and engage.

Did you call your rep?

Regarding what?

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

They can start with explaining what happened to the last 2 years of profit sharing.

That's been explained a million times in emails, roadshows, Q&A's, council meetings, podcasts etc. We exchanged variable pay for guaranteed income. How dumb are you guys?

We took a costly, permanent concession to barely beat WJ pay during the most opportunistic moment in the history of this profession.

What are we trading away next round to get Flair starting pay?!

[apples2apples]

They can start with explaining what happened to the last 2 years of profit sharing.

That's been explained a million times in emails, roadshows, Q&A's, council meetings, podcasts etc. We exchanged variable pay for guaranteed income. How dumb are you guys?

Honest question...

When Delta/American/United etc "Pattern Bargain", do they have to "exchange variable pay for guaranteed income" to get ahead of each other or do they just...PATTERN BARGAIN without giving shit away.

[Mr.Worldwide]

We took a costly, permanent concession to barely beat WJ pay during the most opportunistic moment in the history of this profession.

What are we trading away next round to get Flair starting pay?!

Can you quantify that "costly" concession? How much has it cost you? Because there would have been ZERO profit share in 2024. And for 2025 it would have been around $3K? Meanwhile my T4 pre and post contract differs by nearly a hundred grand, same metal, same seat. Hmmmm

When Delta/American/United etc "Pattern Bargain", do they have to "exchange variable pay for guaranteed income" to get ahead of each other or do they just...PATTERN BARGAIN without giving shit away.

Honest question. Are you cognitively impaired? Because this multi-cycle strategy isn’t all that complicated. Took the Americans 16 years to build what they have. It'll take us at least 2 more cycles. I hope you've settled into your rage posting persona because you're going to be here for a while!

[ZackMorris]

You do understand EBITDAR (not EBITDA) is what matters and for the last 2 years it was met under the old benchmark (negotiated by ACPA no less).

Moving the **EBITDAR** targets was a massive concession and a smart move by the company that has now saved them well over $150 million already and counting.

Are you on the MEC and don't understand this?

[thepoors]

Can you quantify that "costly" concession? How much has it cost you? Because there would have been ZERO profit share in 2024. And for 2025 it would have been around $3K? Meanwhile my T4 pre and post contract differs by nearly a hundred grand, same metal, same seat. Hmmmm

Hmmmm 100k pay difference... so WB CA, the ones who came out furthest ahead in this contract and also the ones that needed it the least. Of course you don't give a shit about a bonus, it's pennies to the dollar. Meanwhile the junior guy trying to make his mortgage every month who could get a little boost at the end of the year can get fucked right?

Honest question. Are you cognitively impaired? Because this multi-cycle strategy isn’t all that complicated. Took the Americans 16 years to build what they have. It'll take us at least 2 more cycles. I hope you've settled into your rage posting persona because you're going to be here for a while!

Are you? You completely ignored the point that we took key concessions. If you have to give something up to make any gains every time, the net improvement is little to none. For the N'th time THAT'S NOT PATTERN BARGAINING.

[BigGreen]

Took the Americans 16 years to build what they have. It'll take us at least 2 more cycles.

When did the Americans give up their Profit Share?

[aeronauticaldisaster]

Took the Americans 16 years to build what they have. It'll take us at least 2 more cycles.

When did the Americans give up their Profit Share?

Lol...never.

They are getting an average of 10% more each year thanks to it.

NB FOs making $300k and get an extra $30k...

This was a huge concession that is a loss that will accumulate over time. Ouch.

[Bede]

When Delta/American/United etc "Pattern Bargain", do they have to "exchange variable pay for guaranteed income" to get ahead of each other or do they just...PATTERN BARGAIN without giving shit away.

They absolutely "give shit away". The point of bargaining is getting better stuff for less important things. It's like trading your bicycle for a car- you still have to part with the bicycle, but you're better off with the car. For example, in Delta's case their monthly pay guarantee is only 65 hours. At some point, they accepted a lower guarantee for some other items that was worth far more to them.

[piedpiper]

At least they have a guarantee. And no 900 annual doesn't count. I work my bag off half the year and the other half I sit at 70 or less. A proper monthly MMG is long overdue.

I would also happily have a 65 hour block if the flying was productive (10 days at work) if I had Deltas soft pay rules. Don't forget on top of that profit share, they also have what 18% full company contribution to their pension fund/ROTH or whatever it is.

Man Canadians really just DON'T GET IT.

[ThrustIdle]

When Delta/American/United etc "Pattern Bargain", do they have to "exchange variable pay for guaranteed income" to get ahead of each other or do they just...PATTERN BARGAIN without giving shit away.

They absolutely "give shit away". The point of bargaining is getting better stuff for less important things. It's like trading your bicycle for a car- you still have to part with the bicycle, but you're better off with the car. For example, in Delta's case their monthly pay guarantee is only 65 hours. At some point, they accepted a lower guarantee for some other items that was worth far more to them.

Lol Bede...I know you got this one line from a Comparables document and keep running away with it but this completely lacks context. Delta ain't giving shit away. No offense, but WestJet even with their respectable monthly guarantee isn't even in the same league as Delta LOL.

Context:

Yes, Delta’s contractual minimum guarantee is 65 hours. But that number is largely irrelevant in practice because Delta does not build lines anywhere near that level.

Delta uses something called Targeted Line Value (TLV). TLV is defined as a 12-bid-period rolling average line value between 73 and 78 hours. In other words, the company intentionally builds schedules so the average pilot line sits around the mid-70s, not 65.

So the actual line construction target is about 75 hours of credit.

On top of that, Delta’s contract contains multiple credit protections that often increase pay above block hours:

• Duty rig: roughly 1 hour of pay for every 2 hours on duty.
• Rotation rig: 1 hour of pay for every 3.5 hours away from base.
• Daily minimums and rotation guarantees that ensure pilots are paid the greater of several credit calculations, not just flight time.

Because of these provisions, inefficient trips generate more credit than block time, which is why many Delta pilots actually credit 75–85 hours per month.

So the narrative that Delta “traded away” a higher guarantee misunderstands how their pay system works. The contract is structured so the average line value...and actual pay...sits much higher.

Decent attempt of projection though Bede!