pAtTeRn bArGaInIng

[CGFCK]

"Delta giving shit away" as they sit at the top of industry looking for more

Bede...such an Canada ALPA simp...

We need to be better and stop rationalizing very mediocre results like giving away hundreds of millions in money like the profit share.

[Bede]

Delta is absolutely at the top of the pile (or close. SWA is up there too.)

But to categorically say that US carriers never give anything up in negotiations is false. The way they got where they are is by trading crap away for big things. That's the result of leverage. They certainly didn't follow the AvCanada negotiating strategy of whining their way to a decent contract

[piedpiper]

Delta, UAL etc didn't take 16 years to get where they are.

They have had massive gains from 2018-2019 onwards, and in two bargaining cycles saw essentially a 100% increase in pay. This is cycle number 2 for us, so when we dont get anywhere close this time around what will the excuses be this time?

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Delta, UAL etc didn't take 16 years to get where they are.

They have had massive gains from 2018-2019 onwards, and in two bargaining cycles saw essentially a 100% increase in pay. This is cycle number 2 for us, so when we dont get anywhere close this time around what will the excuses be this time?

Can't compare to xyz because:

- too american
- too broke
- too rich
- too much taxes
- too much bad weather
- too much ATC fees
- too many negotiating cycles
- too mean of management

[lostav8r]

Delta, UAL etc didn't take 16 years to get where they are.

They have had massive gains from 2018-2019 onwards, and in two bargaining cycles saw essentially a 100% increase in pay. This is cycle number 2 for us, so when we dont get anywhere close this time around what will the excuses be this time?

Can't compare to xyz because:

- too american
- too broke
- too rich
- too much taxes
- too much bad weather
- too much ATC fees
- too many negotiating cycles
- too mean of management

During the covid shutdown AC and others had to take out loans for billions, there was "free" money handed out but not nearly as much as in the US. I think that is part of the huge gap between countries

[piedpiper]

Delta, UAL etc didn't take 16 years to get where they are.

They have had massive gains from 2018-2019 onwards, and in two bargaining cycles saw essentially a 100% increase in pay. This is cycle number 2 for us, so when we dont get anywhere close this time around what will the excuses be this time?

Can't compare to xyz because:

- too american
- too broke
- too rich
- too much taxes
- too much bad weather
- too much ATC fees
- too many negotiating cycles
- too mean of management

During the covid shutdown AC and others had to take out loans for billions, there was "free" money handed out but not nearly as much as in the US. I think that is part of the huge gap between countries

Do you understand how contracts compound over time? Those bailouts are LONG GONE yet Delta, UAL, all the regionals, are still paying their contracts. And somehow still mega profitable.

Why can't Canadians just can't admit we are behind to the level we are.

Also, a lot of thier big first gains game before Covid, so your argument isn't totally valid.

[Bede]

Delta, UAL etc didn't take 16 years to get where they are.

They have had massive gains from 2018-2019 onwards, and in two bargaining cycles saw essentially a 100% increase in pay. This is cycle number 2 for us, so when we dont get anywhere close this time around what will the excuses be this time?

No excuses, but I can provide a possible explanation.

Airline profitability is a major factor in bargaining power. Airlines in Canada are considerably less profitable than their US counterparts, largely because of the government induced cost structures. (NavCanada fees, terminal fees, landing fees, etc.) A bit of napkin math I did a while ago showed that, all things being equal, if we had the same cost structure in Canada as the US, we'd have similar compensation as our American counterparts.

While everyone here is throwing stones at their employers, ALPA, MEC, negots committees, etc., I reserve my opprobrium for our governments who are collecting money from the airlines that should be in our pockets.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Delta, UAL etc didn't take 16 years to get where they are.

They have had massive gains from 2018-2019 onwards, and in two bargaining cycles saw essentially a 100% increase in pay. This is cycle number 2 for us, so when we dont get anywhere close this time around what will the excuses be this time?

No excuses, but I can provide a possible explanation.

Airline profitability is a major factor in bargaining power. Airlines in Canada are considerably less profitable than their US counterparts, largely because of the government induced cost structures. (NavCanada fees, terminal fees, landing fees, etc.) A bit of napkin math I did a while ago showed that, all things being equal, if we had the same cost structure in Canada as the US, we'd have similar compensation as our American counterparts.

While everyone here is throwing stones at their employers, ALPA, MEC, negots committees, etc., I reserve my opprobrium for our governments who are collecting money from the airlines that should be in our pockets.

No excuses but I'll provide an excuse...lol Bede

"Too much taxes"...ie blaming AIFs

Despite Air Canada having the lowest % of labour costs to operating expenses of any major North American airline.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

During the covid shutdown AC and others had to take out loans for billions, there was "free" money handed out but not nearly as much as in the US. I think that is part of the huge gap between countries

So "Not enough free govt $$$" as an excuse.

Problem with that is which corporation in Canada took the most amount of CEWs $$$ of any company in all of the country...

Air Canada

And how much for the pilots...Zero

[crystalpizza]

Delta, UAL etc didn't take 16 years to get where they are.

They have had massive gains from 2018-2019 onwards, and in two bargaining cycles saw essentially a 100% increase in pay. This is cycle number 2 for us, so when we dont get anywhere close this time around what will the excuses be this time?

Didn't the US carriers also go through more rounds of bargaining between bankruptcy and now than we did? i.e. were never locked into bankruptcy era WAWCON for 10+ years like AC.

[piedpiper]

Delta, UAL etc didn't take 16 years to get where they are.

They have had massive gains from 2018-2019 onwards, and in two bargaining cycles saw essentially a 100% increase in pay. This is cycle number 2 for us, so when we dont get anywhere close this time around what will the excuses be this time?

No excuses, but I can provide a possible explanation.

Airline profitability is a major factor in bargaining power. Airlines in Canada are considerably less profitable than their US counterparts, largely because of the government induced cost structures. (NavCanada fees, terminal fees, landing fees, etc.) A bit of napkin math I did a while ago showed that, all things being equal, if we had the same cost structure in Canada as the US, we'd have similar compensation as our American counterparts.

While everyone here is throwing stones at their employers, ALPA, MEC, negots committees, etc., I reserve my opprobrium for our governments who are collecting money from the airlines that should be in our pockets.

No excuses but I'll provide an excuse...lol Bede

"Too much taxes"...ie blaming AIFs

Despite Air Canada having the lowest % of labour costs to operating expenses of any major North American airline.

These are the types of people running your union.

It's embarassing and depressing. Whatever happened to the rah rah go get em burn the house down P4C people? Seems like they got a taste of the steak dinners, ALB days and fancy whiskey and well the rest is history.

How much of our contract is still not implemented 1.5 years later?

[piedpiper]

Delta, UAL etc didn't take 16 years to get where they are.

They have had massive gains from 2018-2019 onwards, and in two bargaining cycles saw essentially a 100% increase in pay. This is cycle number 2 for us, so when we dont get anywhere close this time around what will the excuses be this time?

Didn't the US carriers also go through more rounds of bargaining between bankruptcy and now than we did? i.e. were never locked into bankruptcy era WAWCON for 10+ years like AC.

They did but if you look back around 2015 we weren't actually that much behind. And in the early 2000's we were pretty much on par with th USA. The majority of their increases came just prior to Covid.

[Bede]

"Too much taxes"...ie blaming AIFs

Despite Air Canada having the lowest % of labour costs to operating expenses of any major North American airline.

What do you attribute the cross border pay differential to?

[piedpiper]

"Too much taxes"...ie blaming AIFs

Despite Air Canada having the lowest % of labour costs to operating expenses of any major North American airline.

What do you attribute the cross border pay differential to?

Frankly a lot of it is pilots knowing their worth. Well actually more just Americans mentality of not worrying about what others think about them and striving for more/better.

Canadians care way too much about tearing others down, if someone makes more than you or does better than you they think "how can I take waht they have."

In the USA they thing "How can I get what they have"...

It's cultural. Also from all my discussions with American pilots they are largley ALL rowing in the same direction. They all demand more, they are unified. They pass 2x draft so one day they'll be Sr enough to get 3x. It's a mindset that doesn't exist in Canada and never will.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

"Too much taxes"...ie blaming AIFs

Despite Air Canada having the lowest % of labour costs to operating expenses of any major North American airline.

What do you attribute the cross border pay differential to?

Bede,

Have you gone through this forum and seen what pay difference is?

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/majo ... rvey.html

The Delta to Delta is so much, it would be some pretty expensive AIFs to be a plausible excuse.

One reason is we (all airline pilots in this country) have been slow to unify (join ALPA), been somewhat weak in organizing, and are just beginning the see the power of being a strong union.

We are quick to come up with excuses and slow to realize our greatest threat is ourselves listening to reasons to why we are worth less.

[altiplano]

2011 we were comparable to the Americans.
2012 we got like in government arbitration.
2014 we locked in for 10 years. This is where we were very comparable to US deals. In fact our pay was a little better and CAD/USD was at par.
2016 the first big gains in the US started.
2017, 2020, & 2021 ACPA found more concessions to give.
2023 now ALPA, AC pilots opted out of the last year of the 10 year deal, now 2-3 contracts behind in the recovery cycle.

2024 and 10 years behind ACA ALPA delivered a big contract.

Good and bad, made some big leaps and brought in some positive aspects, came short of some expectations too... I voted no... it's good to want more have high expectations and want more, bur it's not good to bring everyone down. By and large the guys working for us have integrity and are trying to find a way against the employer that has the worst labour relationship by far of any ALPA employer. Tearing it down isn't the way to lifting us up next year, getting behind them is. If we come close to duplicating the gains of 2024? When we increase daily guarantee? Lift everyone higher? Holy shit. That's the view from my seat and what I'm supporting.

[thepoors]

"Too much taxes"...ie blaming AIFs

Despite Air Canada having the lowest % of labour costs to operating expenses of any major North American airline.

What do you attribute the cross border pay differential to?

Frankly a lot of it is pilots knowing their worth. Well actually more just Americans mentality of not worrying about what others think about them and striving for more/better.

Canadians care way too much about tearing others down, if someone makes more than you or does better than you they think "how can I take waht they have."

In the USA they thing "How can I get what they have"...

It's cultural. Also from all my discussions with American pilots they are largley ALL rowing in the same direction. They all demand more, they are unified. They pass 2x draft so one day they'll be Sr enough to get 3x. It's a mindset that doesn't exist in Canada and never will.

You just have to look at the thread on the FA negots to see this. Pilots angry at FAs not at the company. Even within our own company it's "if anyone is doing better than us, we need to tear them down" instead of "good for them, how do we get what they have"

[piedpiper]

Coming from Jazz many years ago, I was shocked to hear from so many older AC guys how they didn't care that Jazz had a better contract in many aspects. They would just spout off "If it was so good, why did you leave?" nonsense comments. Rather than looking at the superior working conditions at the time and going, "Hell yeah, good job, Jazz! Let's get the same!"

It's a uniquely Canadian pilot mentality. Thankfully more so the older generation. We've added what, 4000 pilots (60% of our ranks) since 2016? The demographics have completely changed, and it's a good thing. I feel like the company still hasn't quite caught on to this shift in mentality towards work/life.

[TheMexicoLooter]

These millennials just don't know how hard we had it when we were paid the same as American carriers and the dollar was at par. They want everything their parents had.

----------------------
Jim Mathieson
USMC 74-76
"I'll be your huckleberry"

[piedpiper]

And when you could buy a house in Burlington or Steveston for $350k (1.5x your salary).

[lostav8r]

During the covid shutdown AC and others had to take out loans for billions, there was "free" money handed out but not nearly as much as in the US. I think that is part of the huge gap between countries

So "Not enough free govt $$$" as an excuse.

Problem with that is which corporation in Canada took the most amount of CEWs $$$ of any company in all of the country...

Air Canada

And how much for the pilots...Zero

I hate av crashes every time I try to post....

So you can't compare apples to apples, delta got more 5x more "free" money than AC

Delta Air Lines' (DAL) market capitalization at the end of 2019 was approximately $37-$38 billion USD

Delta got about $8.2 Billion in grants from the PP. Over 20% of their 2019 market cap!

Air Canada's market capitalization at the end of 2019 was approximately C$12.79 billion.

Ac got $492 Million. Less than 4%

Can't compare to xyz because:

- too american
- too broke
- too rich
- too much taxes
- too much bad weather
- too much ATC fees
- too many negotiating cycles
- too mean of management

During the covid shutdown AC and others had to take out loans for billions, there was "free" money handed out but not nearly as much as in the US. I think that is part of the huge gap between countries

Do you understand how contracts compound over time? Those bailouts are LONG GONE yet Delta, UAL, all the regionals, are still paying their contracts. And somehow still mega profitable.

Why can't Canadians just can't admit we are behind to the level we are.

Also, a lot of thier big first gains game before Covid, so your argument isn't totally valid.

[lostav8r]

What do you attribute the cross border pay differential to?

Frankly a lot of it is pilots knowing their worth. Well actually more just Americans mentality of not worrying about what others think about them and striving for more/better.

Canadians care way too much about tearing others down, if someone makes more than you or does better than you they think "how can I take waht they have."

In the USA they thing "How can I get what they have"...

It's cultural. Also from all my discussions with American pilots they are largley ALL rowing in the same direction. They all demand more, they are unified. They pass 2x draft so one day they'll be Sr enough to get 3x. It's a mindset that doesn't exist in Canada and never will.

You just have to look at the thread on the FA negots to see this. Pilots angry at FAs not at the company. Even within our own company it's "if anyone is doing better than us, we need to tear them down" instead of "good for them, how do we get what they have"

I don't know man, the last few years seems to have been I don't care if X president hurts me as long as he hurts people I dislike more

[Bede]

Coming from Jazz many years ago, I was shocked to hear from so many older AC guys how they didn't care that Jazz had a better contract in many aspects. They would just spout off "If it was so good, why did you leave?" nonsense comments. Rather than looking at the superior working conditions at the time and going, "Hell yeah, good job, Jazz! Let's get the same!"

It's a uniquely Canadian pilot mentality. Thankfully more so the older generation. We've added what, 4000 pilots (60% of our ranks) since 2016? The demographics have completely changed, and it's a good thing. I feel like the company still hasn't quite caught on to this shift in mentality towards work/life.

Agree 100%. The only problem is, too many pilots see a TA, jump to the hourly rates and make their decision based on whether or not that amount is more than the other guy. Good contracts require the maturity to closely consider all aspects of the contract when voting.

[flying4dollars]

Delta, UAL etc didn't take 16 years to get where they are.

They have had massive gains from 2018-2019 onwards, and in two bargaining cycles saw essentially a 100% increase in pay. This is cycle number 2 for us, so when we dont get anywhere close this time around what will the excuses be this time?

No excuses, but I can provide a possible explanation.

Airline profitability is a major factor in bargaining power. Airlines in Canada are considerably less profitable than their US counterparts, largely because of the government induced cost structures. (NavCanada fees, terminal fees, landing fees, etc.) A bit of napkin math I did a while ago showed that, all things being equal, if we had the same cost structure in Canada as the US, we'd have similar compensation as our American counterparts.

While everyone here is throwing stones at their employers, ALPA, MEC, negots committees, etc., I reserve my opprobrium for our governments who are collecting money from the airlines that should be in our pockets.

No excuses but I'll provide an excuse...lol Bede

"Too much taxes"...ie blaming AIFs

Despite Air Canada having the lowest % of labour costs to operating expenses of any major North American airline.

I don't think Bede was making an excuse. I think it was more an explanation or theory. It's a plausible one too but it is definitely not the sole reason we aren't as profitable.

Delta has a fleet size of almost 1000 aircraft. We have sub 300 not including Jazz and that's simply due to having an exponentially higher population density. Given their restructuring, they've managed to turn that into a highly profitable business. We have too in the last decade and are now a mere few cycles away from achieving what should be eventually a respectable total contract again. That's the hope anyways. Rome wasn't built in a day, neither was the Americans pilots' contracts and neither will ours. We can all bicker and throw mud at each other or we can press on and work towards improving it.

When I was at Flair, I was paid $54k as an FO and $93K as a 737 skipper. Now they start at $90k FO and $180k captain. There was a time an AC narrowbody skipper made around $190k, now it's $260. Even though I voted no on the TA because I expected and wanted more, I can't argue that progress was at least made. But I also acknowledge we still have a ways to go and will continue to remain engaged and do my part to help achieve that. Transat did very well and took a huge leap forward with theirs. Good for them. Now we can all build off each other's gains, as big or small as they be.