Jazz CRJ crash at LaGuardia

[rudder]

Sincerest condolences to the families of the deceased pilots, as well as to the surviving flight attendants and to the Jazz family at large. This will be a very difficult time.

There is a cctv video of the collision itself on Reddit. I will not repost the link as it is very disturbing to watch. You can go look for it if you so desire.

It appears obvious there was absolutely nothing the flight crew could have done to avoid the collision. That video (and others) will likely form an essential piece of the investigation.

The last time Jazz (Air Canada Connector/Regional/Express) lost flight crew in an accident was at Dryden 37 years ago, nearly to the day. Todays tragedy will stay in the memory of Jazz employees for the rest of their lives.

[leafs95]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... gency.html

Praying for those involved.

Prayers won't help after an aircraft has impacted an ARFF vehicle loaded with 25,000lbs of water.

It's interesting really. I made this thread late last night not knowing anyone involved. Then I woke up in the morning and come to find out, I actually knew one of the pilots in that cockpit.

Yes, I understand prayers won't change a system that failed that crew last night. But sympathy and respect can go a pretty long way.

[digits_]

For those who can bear it - there is surveillance video out now.
It is hard to watch.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DWO7_qnj ... k2MzJhd3Rr

Wow, quite impressive the destruction was limited to the cockpit. That's quite the hit. No fire either. This could have easily been even worse...

[piedpiper]

I haven't been there in a long time but IIRC LGA has a fully automated stop bar/runway status lighting system.

Day one of left seat training many years ago it was drilled into us, that even if ATC says cleared to cross you NEVER cross if the bars are red. Period.

Even if the truck was cleared, if there were red stop bars this falls fully on the driver. ATC made a mistake, yes. But that is the point of these automated systems, to help capture the potential human errors.

[piedpiper]

For those who can bear it - there is surveillance video out now.
It is hard to watch.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DWO7_qnj ... k2MzJhd3Rr

Wow, quite impressive the destruction was limited to the cockpit. That's quite the hit. No fire either. This could have easily been even worse...

It also looks like the aircraft was rapidly decelerating. It looks like last ditch efforts by the crew to stop/slow down, and I am sure that last decision helped saved lives by slowing the impact. Terrible day in not just Canadian aviation but aviation in general. And knowing that it could just have easily been any one of us has been making it hit even harder.

[Maritimer]

For those who can bear it - there is surveillance video out now.
It is hard to watch.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DWO7_qnj ... k2MzJhd3Rr

Wow, quite impressive the destruction was limited to the cockpit. That's quite the hit. No fire either. This could have easily been even worse...

It also looks like the aircraft was rapidly decelerating. It looks like last ditch efforts by the crew to stop/slow down, and I am sure that last decision helped saved lives by slowing the impact. Terrible day in not just Canadian aviation but aviation in general. And knowing that it could just have easily been any one of us has been making it hit even harder.

So true

[Sulako]

Sending good karma and a whole lot of love to the friends and families of those affected. What a tragedy. I spent an hour this morning drafting a company-wide memo about this accident and it sure was dusty in my office.

[cdnavater]

I really hope your account was hacked with a comment like that. If not, Mods please give this ass clown a time out.

Are you kidding me! Regurgitating nonsense the media posted is ok, I read the same thing that poster did and said to myself that’s ridiculous, believe me it was toned down from the first thing I typed out and deleted.
I took one look at the photo and it was clear to me we lost at least two crew members and very likely someone I know, I really get mad when the media posts misinformation and it’s worse when a supposed pilot does it.
By the way, calling me an ass clown seems worse then telling someone to use their head!

I'm sorry I didnt have the FDR transcript in front of me...just details as they come in, last ADSB speed was 21 kts...again - the pics dont jive. As a supposed aviation person - you should know to take things with a grain of salt....like saying there are 100 passengers on a 90 seat airplane. Air Canada has officially said there were 72 pax and 4 crew.

As for spewing crap - I never said I was a pilot (commercially anyways) and none of my previous posts have said that - in fact you would know I'm a long time engineer. As someone whos been in this industry a while - I would have thought that hitting a (reported) 60K lbs vehical going around 100 kts and throwing it 300 ft would have simply destroyed the majority of the aircraft and not just the cockpit - but time will tell.

I'll give you a pass and chalk up your posts to the fact you may be grieving a huge loss and simply acting out....but dont make the mistake of thinking you are the only one who is suffering - there is a good chance I knew someone as well.

I’ll apologize to you, I honestly didn’t think that telling someone to use their head would elicit some much of a response, maybe I should have used mine, although I actually had typed something a lot more critical and deleted before coming back a while later to post what I did.
Anyhow, sad days ahead

[Me262]

On the ATC tapes, you hear "Truck 1 and company".

Doesn't that mean there were 2 vehicles cleared across the runway at the same time?

There were more than 2. The security footage shows that they all stopped, except the lead, who kept crossing the runway, possibly not visually checking, or checking too fast and not noticing, knowing they are cleared to cross. Just a really frustrating accident that could've been avoided. Of course, hindsight is 20-20, everyone did the best they could at that moment. The system does need to be fixed though as it's failing horribly, especially on the eastern coast of US being so crowded.

[MX-5]

ATC question:

Same contoller working ground and tower frequencies.... because of the time of night? or cutbacks? Surely this will come out as part of the investigation.

[‘Bob’]

Looks like was a relatively inexperienced crew. Dipping below the glide slope to land at the threshold would have helped by being slower sooner.

If there was the time to make a decision like that, it would be to go around not dip below the glide slope. What are you smoking?

If the crew saw a runway incursion.. that’s the time to go around.

They had no warning. No chance.

Aviation is such a complex and safety sensitive system where you simply have to trust that everyone else has the competence to keep you safe.

Unfortunately this is no longer the case. While the details of this crash and the DC crash are different, the root causes will likely be the same.

Overworked controller managing what two controllers should be; a traffic conflict that assumes ATC has positive control and doesn’t recognize the necessity of visual confirmation/separation; and an unwitting aircraft following all the rules caught in the middle with deadly results.

I checked in on my people and they are all accounted for. This will hit really close to home for many, I know.

[philaviate]

Looks like was a relatively inexperienced crew. Dipping below the glide slope to land at the threshold would have helped by being slower sooner.

If there was the time to make a decision like that, it would be to go around not dip below the glide slope. What are you smoking?

If the crew saw a runway incursion.. that’s the time to go around.

They had no warning. No chance.

Aviation is such a complex and safety sensitive system where you simply have to trust that everyone else has the competence to keep you safe.

Unfortunately this is no longer the case. While the details of this crash and the DC crash are different, the root causes will likely be the same.

Overworked controller managing what two controllers should be; a traffic conflict that assumes ATC has positive control and doesn’t recognize the necessity of visual confirmation/separation; and an unwitting aircraft following all the rules caught in the middle with deadly results.

I checked in on my people and they are all accounted for. This will hit really close to home for many, I know.

I'd say the ultimate root cause is actually the fact in FAA land you can be given a landing clearance when the runway is in fact not clear.
How many times have you been number 5 to land and already cleared?
A lot can happen from the clearance to you even being on short final.
A dumb system that serves no clear purpose. Just wait until you're actually good to land before clearing them to land. Simple.
The entire world does it that way outside FAA.

[all_ramped_up]

My colleagues often ignore my clear left/clear right calls and don't even look. I don't think this truck or following company looked either. Hopefully this is a wake up call to everyone to check the runway and approach is clear before entering.

I also now feel better about having turned down every La Guardia trip I've ever been offered due to the hazardous attitude of the controllers in my opinion.

It's not quite that simple. I volunteer for a fire department. You've got lights and sirens on. Adrenaline is pumping. You pull up to an intersection. You stop, look both ways. Do you really register what's happening or do you just "look" out of force of habit? I've never had an accident, but I've had two close calls.

Unfortunately it takes something like this to remind people to “really look” although in this case it would have been difficult to see. At night, in the rain, a multitude of lights, it can be difficult to see anything coming. Add in a clearance from the tower controller to cross the runway and this can be the result. Very tragic. RIP to the crew.

This.

Having had a 'D' drivers permit and spent many years driving airside, I can see how even if the Firetruck crew did look both ways that it could be difficult to see the CRJ. Glare from wet runway, low slung aircraft, multitude of other lighting, task saturation on their way to an emergency...

A grave reminder to those of us operating vehicles airside to REALLY look, despite what the controller says.

This is one of those accidents where all the holes in the swiss cheese lined up to the detriment of the crew of the CRJ.

RIP.

[digits_]

A dumb system that serves no clear purpose. Just wait until you're actually good to land before clearing them to land. Simple.
The entire world does it that way outside FAA.

This. Again this. I can't understand people are still defending this practice. Landing clearances are just pointless in their current form. Just a legal box to tick. Why? The exta "efficiency" it allows isn't worth the tradeoff in safety.

It's a miracle the whole plane didn't go up in flames. Let's not wait until that happens.

[350driver]

Sad day for sure. Is it clear yet if all the audio transmissions between Tower and the Fire Truck were in fact on the same frequency as the Jazz flight?

Not sure how accurate the below video is, but the ATC cleared to cross transmission for the truck occurred when Jazz was 300 feet and about a mile back which suggests the possibility of a go around shouldn't have been out of question.

You never know for sure how accurate the audio timing is to this video of the ATC scope, so we will have to wait and see what the official reports say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbm-QJAAzNY

Condolences to all parties involved.

[philaviate]

A dumb system that serves no clear purpose. Just wait until you're actually good to land before clearing them to land. Simple.
The entire world does it that way outside FAA.

This. Again this. I can't understand people are still defending this practice. Landing clearances are just pointless in their current form. Just a legal box to tick. Why? The exta "efficiency" it allows isn't worth the tradeoff in safety.

It's a miracle the whole plane didn't go up in flames. Let's not wait until that happens.

I don't even buy any gain in efficiency. It's the same words, just said earlier.

It's not even really a clearance, it's at best a provisional clearance, subject to terms and conditions. Maybe. Possibly. Or not......

[rudder]

The identities of the two deceased Jazz pilots are circulating in the media. Not yet verified by Jazz or the NTSB, although I would expect that to happen later today.

As described by the FAA Administrator yesterday - “young men at the start of their careers”.

Godspeed.

[hazatude]

My condolences.

[7ECA]

From the BBC, reporting on the NTSB news conference about the accident, this is apparently a summary of the CVR readout:

3 minutes, 7 seconds - Air Canada pilots are instructed to contact LaGuardia tower

2 minutes, 45 seconds - Aircraft lowers its landing gear

2 minutes, 22 seconds - Flight crew checks in with LaGuardia tower

2 minutes, 17 seconds - Tower clears plane to land on runway 4

1 minutes, 12 seconds - Flight crew confirms landing checklist complete

1 minute, 3 seconds - Airport vehicle makes transmission to the tower, but transmission was "stepped on" by another unidentified radio transmission

54 seconds - Flight crew acknowledges plane was 500 feet (152m) above the ground and on a stable approach

40 seconds - LaGuardia tower asks which vehicle needed to cross a runway

28 seconds - Truck 1 makes radio transmission to the tower

25 seconds - Truck 1 requests to cross runway 4

20 seconds - Tower clears Truck 1 to cross runway 4

9 seconds - Tower instructs Truck 1 to stop

8 seconds - Sound consistent with airplane landing

4 seconds - Tower again tells Truck 1 to stop moving

0 seconds - Recording ends

It was also revealed that there were two controllers in the tower at the time of the accident, and that Truck 1 did not have a transponder, so no ground based conflict warning was generated.

[philaviate]

From the BBC, reporting on the NTSB news conference about the accident, this is apparently a summary of the CVR readout:

3 minutes, 7 seconds - Air Canada pilots are instructed to contact LaGuardia tower

2 minutes, 45 seconds - Aircraft lowers its landing gear

2 minutes, 22 seconds - Flight crew checks in with LaGuardia tower

2 minutes, 17 seconds - Tower clears plane to land on runway 4

1 minutes, 12 seconds - Flight crew confirms landing checklist complete

1 minute, 3 seconds - Airport vehicle makes transmission to the tower, but transmission was "stepped on" by another unidentified radio transmission

54 seconds - Flight crew acknowledges plane was 500 feet (152m) above the ground and on a stable approach

40 seconds - LaGuardia tower asks which vehicle needed to cross a runway

28 seconds - Truck 1 makes radio transmission to the tower

25 seconds - Truck 1 requests to cross runway 4

20 seconds - Tower clears Truck 1 to cross runway 4

9 seconds - Tower instructs Truck 1 to stop

8 seconds - Sound consistent with airplane landing

4 seconds - Tower again tells Truck 1 to stop moving

0 seconds - Recording ends

It was also revealed that there were two controllers in the tower at the time of the accident, and that Truck 1 did not have a transponder, so no ground based conflict warning was generated.

2 minutes 17 shows the problem. Planes are being cleared to and, without any regard as to the reality of if the runway is even clear,or even likely to be clear, minutes later when they actually arrive.

This practice needs to stop.

I'd rather be 5 feet above the threshold getting my clearance after being warned of a late clearance than 5 minutes in advance and number 5 just to tick a bureaucratic necessity.. Dumb, dumb, dumb......

[philaviate]

From the BBC, reporting on the NTSB news conference about the accident, this is apparently a summary of the CVR readout:

3 minutes, 7 seconds - Air Canada pilots are instructed to contact LaGuardia tower

2 minutes, 45 seconds - Aircraft lowers its landing gear

2 minutes, 22 seconds - Flight crew checks in with LaGuardia tower

2 minutes, 17 seconds - Tower clears plane to land on runway 4

1 minutes, 12 seconds - Flight crew confirms landing checklist complete

1 minute, 3 seconds - Airport vehicle makes transmission to the tower, but transmission was "stepped on" by another unidentified radio transmission

54 seconds - Flight crew acknowledges plane was 500 feet (152m) above the ground and on a stable approach

40 seconds - LaGuardia tower asks which vehicle needed to cross a runway

28 seconds - Truck 1 makes radio transmission to the tower

25 seconds - Truck 1 requests to cross runway 4

20 seconds - Tower clears Truck 1 to cross runway 4

9 seconds - Tower instructs Truck 1 to stop

8 seconds - Sound consistent with airplane landing

4 seconds - Tower again tells Truck 1 to stop moving

0 seconds - Recording ends

It was also revealed that there were two controllers in the tower at the time of the accident, and that Truck 1 did not have a transponder, so no ground based conflict warning was generated.

2 minutes 17 shows the problem. Planes are being cleared to land, without any regard as to the reality of if the runway is even clear,or even likely to be clear, minutes later when they actually arrive.

This practice needs to stop.

I'd rather be 5 feet above the threshold getting my clearance after being warned of a late clearance than 5 minutes in advance and number 5 just to tick a bureaucratic necessity.. Dumb, dumb, dumb......

[350driver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxDklYVkioU

Actual NTSB report.

1min 26 seconds / 1000 foot EGPWS call
54 seconds / 500 feet stable call by crew
40 seconds / LGA tower asks Which vehicle needs to cross runway 04
28 seconds / truck 1 requests to cross
26 seconds / LGA tower acknowledges truck request
25 seconds / truck 1 requests to cross again rwy 04 at delta
20 seconds / LGA Tower Clears Truck 1 and Company to cross 04 at delta
19 seconds / '100' call in cockpit
17 seconds / Truck 1 reads back crossing runway 04 at delta.
14 seconds / 50 call out EGPWS
12 seconds / 30 call out EGPWS
11 seconds / 20 call out EGPWS
10 seconds / 10 call out EGPWS
9 seconds / Tower instructs Truck to STOP
8 seconds / Landing Sound Gear Touching Runway
6 seconds / pilot transfer of control
4 seconds / Tower tells truck 1 to stop
0 seconds / recording ended.

It is known PF was FO, and the control transfer was to the captain.

So contrary to all the speculation, the "cleared to cross" transmission did not occur after Jazz had touched down.

Something doesn't add up from 25 seconds before the accident. You're in command of an airplane that is greater than 100 feet above the ground, with a truck being cleared to cross the runway you've been cleared to land on. What's the basis to continue the approach at that point instead of a go around?

Is there a scenario where the CVR picks up the radio transmissions, but the pilots didn't hear it? Fatigue? Leg 3 of 3 type 4 day pairing at Jazz?

This may not be the heroic narrative on the pilots part that has taken shape the last 24 hours. Is inexperience finally catching up to us?

I hope I'm seriously missing something. In any case, very sad, and condolences. Hope we learn something once the final report is materialized.

Once again, condolences to anyone affected. This is super sad.

[confusedalot]

plane was on the ground 8 seconds before, standard I have control at 6 seconds, heavy brakes at 4 seconds. controller stop messages numerous times.

no matter what the controller did or did not do, you would think that the guy in the fire truck would look both ways. obviously he did not see super bright landing lights. that is hard to understand.

maybe a change in fireman procedures in order? look before you cross no matter what anyone tells you?

[FL030]

I was surprised to read that the firetruck doesn't have a transponder like other ground vehicles that are on the taxi ways and runways. Perhaps that was a contributing factor that prevented a runway incursion system from detecting the truck.

[MX-5]

Something doesn't add up from 25 seconds before the accident. You're in command of an airplane that is greater than 100 feet above the ground, with a truck being cleared to cross the runway you've been cleared to land on. What's the basis to continue the approach at that point instead of a go around?

The basis is, you don't hear the conversation between Truck 1 and Ground, you’ve been cleared to land. So you continue the approach.