How will the ATPL changes affect the industry?

[citabriaguy]

this requirement is entirely useless beside act as a roadblock for any FO who currently holds a 704 or 705 type rating.

I can understand the requirement of PPC on a 2 crew aircraft, but PIC requirement is an unnecessary stumbling block. It will take time for bid language to reflect this and I would be surprised if restricted AA will be considered eligible to upgrade at most 705s right away

[philaviate]

I don't understand the problem with just going in a sim. How is it a problem?

You want to upgrade? Sim session. Successful. Fill out this form. Submit to tc. You now qualify for atpl.

If you can do PICUS. Why can't you do PICUS PPC? you do your PPL CPL MULTI IFR as pic. And the law states for the purposes of a test an instructor can make you pic.

So what is the problem? What am I missing?

How long will it take for TC to process the upgrade? With their track record it could be months.
So now is a company going to put a FO through a PIC ride, then accept waiting many months before they can actually put them in the left seat?

[ruffdeezy]

The restriction only applies outside of Canada
also, the company cannot make you the Captain without a captain PPC so essentially the restriction means nothing

[Panama Jack]

I don't understand the problem with just going in a sim. How is it a problem?

You want to upgrade? Sim session. Successful. Fill out this form. Submit to tc. You now qualify for atpl.

If you can do PICUS. Why can't you do PICUS PPC? you do your PPL CPL MULTI IFR as pic. And the law states for the purposes of a test an instructor can make you pic.

So what is the problem? What am I missing?

How long will it take for TC to process the upgrade? With their track record it could be months.
So now is a company going to put a FO through a PIC ride, then accept waiting many months before they can actually put them in the left seat?

Following my last type rating ride (initial type rating) the examiner whipped out a ball point pen from the hotel they were staying at and within a few magical strokes in a blank space of my licence booklet I got new temporary privileges until my sticker came several weeks later in a brown envelope. The practice of giving temporary privileges is nothing new; most pilots experience that for the first time after passing their Private Pilot checkride.

With electronic licences coming in the near future, I suspect something similar will happen, but with coulombs replacing paper fibers.

[SkyBagPiper]

This is a horrible step back in regulations. Of course it had to be TC to totally screw up the whole process and language. I always disliked TC and this makes me confirm the non stop hatred I have towards them.

This will definitely block and screw most FO’s in the industry. Especially in 705 operations. Now your « restricted ATP » is just a glorified CPL. so this means that if you work at WS for example; it will take you potentially 10-14 years to unlock your unrestricted ATPL? As upgrades are within that timeline. If you work at AC, a full two to 15 years to unblock your ATP? This is bullshit! I have no other country in the world who would only allow PIC PPC’d to unlock your ATPL! This is ridiculous.

Europe, you get a restricted ATPL until you hit your 1500 hours. No need to get your PIC upgrade. Similar story in the US; without going too much in detail. It’s all based on the international 1500 hours, 250 hours PIC etc. That’s it.

It definitely screws you if you want to head overseas. No one will recognize a « restricted ATP »; especially if this new regulation is in its infancy. It blocks you and basically forces you to remain in Canada.

There aren’t many places where you can upgrade quickly in a two crew aircraft in this country. And if you do find such places; it will take you years to get an upgrade.

So, either you get an FAA license or any other easy international conversion. Then convert it back to a full TC license. Or find a place where they can give you a right seat PPC but you’ll act as a co pilot. Those places are usually corporate aviation. Not much jobs there as well.

People and companies should protest this useless idiotic new regulation.

[digits_]

Europe, you get a restricted ATPL until you hit your 1500 hours

No you don't. There is no restricted ATPL in EASA regulations (Europe). You're likely referring to the concept of a 'frozen ATPL'. That refers to a CPL holder who has passed all ATPL written exams. But it's not an official concept. It's something flying schools use in their promo material and pilots put on their resumes. You can do the same in Canada if you wish.

[careerpilot?]

As posted in the flight training section, it’s clear now that TC will require the PPC be conducted as PIC, which puts 705 FOs in a pickle for sure. Their argument is that a 705 FO would have everything else ready until they do their command course PPC, at which point they’d get their PIC PPC and be issued the ATPL.

www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=231944

Makes sense, but…. My case is a good example. I’m going to be starting at a regional 705 this spring, 600hrs short of my fixed wing ATPL. I wrote the SAMRA/SARON in lieu of the IATRA, expecting I’ll easily make those 600hrs before the exams expire. Now I have to wait until I am selected for command course, which may mean my exams expire and I need to write them again.

CAR 400.03 doesn’t appear to have been amended, so in theory, the SAMRA/SARON should “lock in” if I use them for my first type rating, even as an FO, correct? So my situation may be safe, but there may be many 705 FOs who initially wrote the IATRA, but wrote their SAMRA/SARON as they approached 1500hrs expecting to apply for their ATP who may now see their exams expire…

400.03 (1) Subject to subsection (3), written examinations, including all sections of a sectionalized examination, that are required for the issuance of a permit or licence or for the endorsement of a permit or licence with a rating shall be completed during the 24-month period preceding the date of the application for the permit, licence or rating.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of examinations that are required for the issuance of

(a) a student pilot permit; or

(b) an airline transport pilot licence if examinations were previously written

(i) for the endorsement of a type rating, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the type rating was issued;

(ii) for the issuance of the former senior commercial pilot licence, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the senior commercial pilot licence was issued; or

(iii) for the issuance of an airline transport pilot licence — aeroplane, an airline transport pilot licence — aeroplane integrated course was successfully completed during the 5-year period preceding the date of the application for the licence and a course completion certificate was issued.

[philaviate]

I don't understand the problem with just going in a sim. How is it a problem?

You want to upgrade? Sim session. Successful. Fill out this form. Submit to tc. You now qualify for atpl.

If you can do PICUS. Why can't you do PICUS PPC? you do your PPL CPL MULTI IFR as pic. And the law states for the purposes of a test an instructor can make you pic.

So what is the problem? What am I missing?

How long will it take for TC to process the upgrade? With their track record it could be months.
So now is a company going to put a FO through a PIC ride, then accept waiting many months before they can actually put them in the left seat?

Following my last type rating ride (initial type rating) the examiner whipped out a ball point pen from the hotel they were staying at and within a few magical strokes in a blank space of my licence booklet I got new temporary privileges until my sticker came several weeks later in a brown envelope. The practice of giving temporary privileges is nothing new; most pilots experience that for the first time after passing their Private Pilot checkride.

With electronic licences coming in the near future, I suspect something similar will happen, but with coulombs replacing paper fibers.

Take a read of the TC advisory document in this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=231944
This isn't just a quick pen whip process. The ATPL has to be verified by TC.

The reality is they have added a step that is now out of sync with ICAO standards, in the other direction.

[twa22]

So here's a question... with the influx of sub 1000 hour hires at 705's in the last few years, and more and more pilots going right seat immediately out of flight school or very quickly afterwards, what's going to happen in the future when there are going to be less and less ATPL's issued due to the outdated 250 PIC requirement? With the rising cost of living, less and less will be willing to pay to fly a C150 around for 100-150 hours, so something will have to change, wonder how long it's going to take TC to realize that, but yet here we are, with even more outdated rules instead of progressing forward...

[MD11]

So if someone applies for the ATPL in the next 1-2 weeks, would they be reviewed under the current regs or they will be sol because of this new change coming?

[goldeneagle]

I dont think it'll change things as much as some here seem to imply. Get the time in the book, write the exams, get the 'restricted' atpl sitting right seat in a KingAir. Upgrade time comes, do a 2 pilot ride from the left seat, and the examiner grants removal of the restriction.

[Dawgydawg]

The part where it require a PIC PPC it the most confusing part. To excercise the privilige of a ATPL on a multicrew aircraft, you need a PIC PPC on type. It's not like there is unqualified pilot acting as PIC on multicrew airplane without a PIC PPC. So this requirement is entirely useless beside act as a roadblock for any FO who currently holds a 704 or 705 type rating.

It becomes a problem is you’re an FO trying to leave for greener pastures in US or anywhere else. The restricted atpl would make it tough to transfer

[8895]

I dont think it'll change things as much as some here seem to imply. Get the time in the book, write the exams, get the 'restricted' atpl sitting right seat in a KingAir. Upgrade time comes, do a 2 pilot ride from the left seat, and the examiner grants removal of the restriction.

You won’t have any sort of licence issued from completing a ride in the right seat of a king air, that’s the issue everyone is getting at.

[rudder]

Even with a clarification document issued, TC still manages to confuse.

My interpretation is that nothing changes from status quo other than the “Skill Test does not meet ICAO requirements” added to remarks. However, SIC ride reports will no longer be accepted to validate an ATPL application (which appears to be the prior administrative standard but was not enforced).

Every ATPL applicant must submit a multi-engine IFR ride report that is less than 12 months old. Any ride report submitted that is not acting as PIC on an aircraft requiring two flight crew will result in an ATPL sticker with the remark.

The confusion appears to have started with TC using the term ‘restricted’ which going forward will be described as ‘annotated’ (but this will not appear anywhere on the ATPL sticker. Just the ICAO remark).

[careerpilot?]

Even with a clarification document issued, TC still manages to confuse.

My interpretation is that nothing changes from status quo other than the “Skill Test does not meet ICAO requirements” added to remarks. However, SIC ride reports will no longer be accepted to validate an ATPL application (which appears to be the prior administrative standard but was not enforced).

Every ATPL applicant must submit a multi-engine IFR ride report that is less than 12 months old. Any ride report submitted that is not acting as PIC on an aircraft requiring two flight crew will result in an ATPL sticker with the remark.

The confusion appears to have started with TC using the term ‘restricted’ which going forward will be described as ‘annotated’ (but this will not appear anywhere on the ATPL sticker. Just the ICAO remark).

My read is, you get nothing if the ride is not as PIC - the restricted ATPL is only for a single pilot aircraft. There is no “restricted” if you don’t do the ride as PIC, regardless of aircraft type.

[Information_Papa]

I dont think it'll change things as much as some here seem to imply. Get the time in the book, write the exams, get the 'restricted' atpl sitting right seat in a KingAir. Upgrade time comes, do a 2 pilot ride from the left seat, and the examiner grants removal of the restriction.

You won’t have any sort of licence issued from completing a ride in the right seat of a king air, that’s the issue everyone is getting at.

I'm not trying to be rude but is everyone having a retardation attack? You need a ppc to become captain anyway. Company pays for that too. How many upgraded pilots then move on to another company? Also for the purposes of a flight test, the Examiner can deem the pilot as PIC.

SO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

[philaviate]

I dont think it'll change things as much as some here seem to imply. Get the time in the book, write the exams, get the 'restricted' atpl sitting right seat in a KingAir. Upgrade time comes, do a 2 pilot ride from the left seat, and the examiner grants removal of the restriction.

You won’t have any sort of licence issued from completing a ride in the right seat of a king air, that’s the issue everyone is getting at.

I'm not trying to be rude but is everyone having a retardation attack? You need a ppc to become captain anyway. Company pays for that too. How many upgraded pilots then move on to another company? Also for the purposes of a flight test, the Examiner can deem the pilot as PIC.

SO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

The problem is how long the lazy fucks at TC will take to process your application after the PIC ride, creating a problem that only exists because they're too dumb to see the chicken/egg situation they have created which is contrary to ICAO standards.

[Information_Papa]

How will this take long to process? Do you have any other licenses or what? I don't understand what it is your getting at other than perhaps a gut feeling they're going to be slow.

Every license rating and PPC I've had, they wrote down in your booklet when it was valid. During covid they began allowing that to be extended. The sticker took months. But I was given a pen written confirmation of passing in my booklet in the interim. And then I received my sticker which I then placed over top the writing.

So what are you talking about?

[Doggtown88]

My personal issue with the new rule is that I left my left seat job on a 1900 at 1400 hours, which didnt require an ATPL. I wrote IATRA and now sit right seat at a 705… it seems I now cannot move on to a company like AC without waiting 3-4 years for an upgrade at my current carrier in order to receive an ATPL..

[philaviate]

How will this take long to process? Do you have any other licenses or what? I don't understand what it is your getting at other than perhaps a gut feeling they're going to be slow.

Every license rating and PPC I've had, they wrote down in your booklet when it was valid. During covid they began allowing that to be extended. The sticker took months. But I was given a pen written confirmation of passing in my booklet in the interim. And then I received my sticker which I then placed over top the writing.

So what are you talking about?

Did you read the release? That is not the process for the ATPL, it has to be verified. You can, in theory, pre submit everything pending the PPC, but it doesn't look like the examiner can pencil whip your booklet to endorse you.

[8895]

How will this take long to process? Do you have any other licenses or what? I don't understand what it is your getting at other than perhaps a gut feeling they're going to be slow.

Every license rating and PPC I've had, they wrote down in your booklet when it was valid. During covid they began allowing that to be extended. The sticker took months. But I was given a pen written confirmation of passing in my booklet in the interim. And then I received my sticker which I then placed over top the writing.

So what are you talking about?

Read Dogtown’s comment below, it’s the issue people are getting up in arms about, which is very valid I think. I’m not quite sure why you’re confused about people’s opinion on this

[propfeather]

How will this take long to process? Do you have any other licenses or what? I don't understand what it is your getting at other than perhaps a gut feeling they're going to be slow.

Every license rating and PPC I've had, they wrote down in your booklet when it was valid. During covid they began allowing that to be extended. The sticker took months. But I was given a pen written confirmation of passing in my booklet in the interim. And then I received my sticker which I then placed over top the writing.

So what are you talking about?

Did you read the release? That is not the process for the ATPL, it has to be verified. You can, in theory, pre submit everything pending the PPC, but it doesn't look like the examiner can pencil whip your booklet to endorse you.

If you have the Restricted ATPL, everything has already been verified except for the PIC PPC. The signature should (in theory) then get rid of the restriction. To be seen how this actually plays out though. It really doesn't seem any different except for PC-12 drivers and instructors.

[8895]

How will this take long to process? Do you have any other licenses or what? I don't understand what it is your getting at other than perhaps a gut feeling they're going to be slow.

Every license rating and PPC I've had, they wrote down in your booklet when it was valid. During covid they began allowing that to be extended. The sticker took months. But I was given a pen written confirmation of passing in my booklet in the interim. And then I received my sticker which I then placed over top the writing.

So what are you talking about?

Did you read the release? That is not the process for the ATPL, it has to be verified. You can, in theory, pre submit everything pending the PPC, but it doesn't look like the examiner can pencil whip your booklet to endorse you.

If you have the Restricted ATPL, everything has already been verified except for the PIC PPC. The signature should (in theory) then get rid of the restriction. To be seen how this actually plays out though. It really doesn't seem any different except for PC-12 drivers and instructors.

The issue is for 703/705 FO’s without an ATPL. They’re now blocked from applying to other airlines that require an ATPL to be hired unless they upgrade at their current airline to obtain said ATPL.

[propfeather]

Did you read the release? That is not the process for the ATPL, it has to be verified. You can, in theory, pre submit everything pending the PPC, but it doesn't look like the examiner can pencil whip your booklet to endorse you.

If you have the Restricted ATPL, everything has already been verified except for the PIC PPC. The signature should (in theory) then get rid of the restriction. To be seen how this actually plays out though. It really doesn't seem any different except for PC-12 drivers and instructors.

The issue is for 703/705 FO’s without an ATPL. They’re now blocked from applying to other airlines that require an ATPL to be hired unless they upgrade at their current airline to obtain said ATPL.

To be seen what actually happens but I imagine that any operator that requires an ATPL, but no two crew PIC time will change the requirement to just a restricted ATPL. They know you'll that you have the full ATPL once you've done a PIC ride.

[careerpilot?]

If you have the Restricted ATPL, everything has already been verified except for the PIC PPC. The signature should (in theory) then get rid of the restriction. To be seen how this actually plays out though. It really doesn't seem any different except for PC-12 drivers and instructors.

The issue is for 703/705 FO’s without an ATPL. They’re now blocked from applying to other airlines that require an ATPL to be hired unless they upgrade at their current airline to obtain said ATPL.

To be seen what actually happens but I imagine that any operator that requires an ATPL, but no two crew PIC time will change the requirement to just a restricted ATPL. They know you'll that you have the full ATPL once you've done a PIC ride.

I think this is where the confusion lies. You will not get a restricted ATPL for a 705 FO ride, or any FO ride. Restricted ATPL applies only to a PIC ride in a single pilot airplane. A 2 crew aircraft FO cannot meet the skill requirement, even restricted, without a captain PPC.