How will the ATPL changes affect the industry?

[philaviate]

The issue is for 703/705 FO’s without an ATPL. They’re now blocked from applying to other airlines that require an ATPL to be hired unless they upgrade at their current airline to obtain said ATPL.

To be seen what actually happens but I imagine that any operator that requires an ATPL, but no two crew PIC time will change the requirement to just a restricted ATPL. They know you'll that you have the full ATPL once you've done a PIC ride.

I think this is where the confusion lies. You will not get a restricted ATPL for a 705 FO ride, or any FO ride. Restricted ATPL applies only to a PIC ride in a single pilot airplane. A 2 crew aircraft FO cannot meet the skill requirement, even restricted, without a captain PPC.

Exactly.
TC have screwed up.
They've made a chicken egg situation for no valid reason.

[propfeather]

You will not get a restricted ATPL for a 705 FO ride, or any FO ride. Restricted ATPL applies only to a PIC ride in a single pilot airplane. A 2 crew aircraft FO cannot meet the skill requirement, even restricted, without a captain PPC.

Well I stand corrected, that doesn't make sense at all!

[Prodriver]

My buddy just beat the change, he is pretty happy. Private, some IFR Twin and passed both exams.

[twa22]

The issue is for 703/705 FO’s without an ATPL. They’re now blocked from applying to other airlines that require an ATPL to be hired unless they upgrade at their current airline to obtain said ATPL.

To be seen what actually happens but I imagine that any operator that requires an ATPL, but no two crew PIC time will change the requirement to just a restricted ATPL. They know you'll that you have the full ATPL once you've done a PIC ride.

I think this is where the confusion lies. You will not get a restricted ATPL for a 705 FO ride, or any FO ride. Restricted ATPL applies only to a PIC ride in a single pilot airplane. A 2 crew aircraft FO cannot meet the skill requirement, even restricted, without a captain PPC.

So what happens in the future when no FO can get an atpl? What happens to all these FOs who are in cadet programs and get into a 705 machine at 250 hours? Not only are they screwed for the PIC requirement, but this just adds an extra hurdle...

[Dry Guy]

Not my problem. Pilot shortages are good for pilot wages. Realistically though? We all know it's immigrant labour.

[philaviate]

To be seen what actually happens but I imagine that any operator that requires an ATPL, but no two crew PIC time will change the requirement to just a restricted ATPL. They know you'll that you have the full ATPL once you've done a PIC ride.

I think this is where the confusion lies. You will not get a restricted ATPL for a 705 FO ride, or any FO ride. Restricted ATPL applies only to a PIC ride in a single pilot airplane. A 2 crew aircraft FO cannot meet the skill requirement, even restricted, without a captain PPC.

So what happens in the future when no FO can get an atpl? What happens to all these FOs who are in cadet programs and get into a 705 machine at 250 hours? Not only are they screwed for the PIC requirement, but this just adds an extra hurdle...

Just like the trucking industry.

A bunch of people with fake licences, fake log books, and fake experience will swoop in to save us from our terrible high trust, high cohesion, western society, and show how diversity can make our country just like theirs.

[careerpilot?]

To be seen what actually happens but I imagine that any operator that requires an ATPL, but no two crew PIC time will change the requirement to just a restricted ATPL. They know you'll that you have the full ATPL once you've done a PIC ride.

I think this is where the confusion lies. You will not get a restricted ATPL for a 705 FO ride, or any FO ride. Restricted ATPL applies only to a PIC ride in a single pilot airplane. A 2 crew aircraft FO cannot meet the skill requirement, even restricted, without a captain PPC.

So what happens in the future when no FO can get an atpl? What happens to all these FOs who are in cadet programs and get into a 705 machine at 250 hours? Not only are they screwed for the PIC requirement, but this just adds an extra hurdle...

According to TC’s explanation, for someone upgrading “in house”, as long as everything else is in place (hours, exams), your command course PPC would meet the requirement. The unknown there is processing times to actually issue the ATPL…

The real problem will be someone without the ATPL but with everything else, who wants to hop to another job that requires ATPL, they can’t. Jazz / Encore FO with lots of hours but delayed upgrade wants to hop over to mainline - they can’t. Good for the regionals I guess, they’ll have fewer FOs hopping over to the other side.

For now I believe regional upgrades are still happening fairly quick, but who knows how that will look in a few years?

[8895]

I think this is where the confusion lies. You will not get a restricted ATPL for a 705 FO ride, or any FO ride. Restricted ATPL applies only to a PIC ride in a single pilot airplane. A 2 crew aircraft FO cannot meet the skill requirement, even restricted, without a captain PPC.

So what happens in the future when no FO can get an atpl? What happens to all these FOs who are in cadet programs and get into a 705 machine at 250 hours? Not only are they screwed for the PIC requirement, but this just adds an extra hurdle...

According to TC’s explanation, for someone upgrading “in house”, as long as everything else is in place (hours, exams), your command course PPC would meet the requirement. The unknown there is processing times to actually issue the ATPL…

The real problem will be someone without the ATPL but with everything else, who wants to hop to another job that requires ATPL, they can’t. Jazz / Encore FO with lots of hours but delayed upgrade wants to hop over to mainline - they can’t. Good for the regionals I guess, they’ll have fewer FOs hopping over to the other side.

For now I believe regional upgrades are still happening fairly quick, but who knows how that will look in a few years?

For airlines that deal with attrition I think this could also cause a headache for them. Because now you’ll have FO’s who would’ve stayed right seat until moving on if your operation was seen by them as a stepping stone, but now they’ll essentially be forced to upgrade to get that ATPL and move on.

From what friends who used to be at jazz have told me, there if you’re an FO who’s seniority can hold an upgrade, but when you bid for it the company looks and determines that your number for mainline flow is coming up in a short period of time, they’ll give you captain pay but won’t upgrade you because it would be a waste of time, money and resources since you’d be gone so soon. For any airline with attrition to AC you’re now gonna have FO’s who bid to upgrade just so they can get an ATPL and send an application into AC on their first layover of captain LID.

If TC was capable of using logic they would’ve made it so that the skill check not done as PIC, but in a two crew aircraft, would also qualify for this “restricted ATPL”. Instead, now technically someone could do their initial group 1 flight test in a clapped out Seminole, gain all the required time within 12 months of that skill check and be given a restricted ATPL, without having any airline experience whatsoever. TC figured the ICAO ATPL skill check has two requirements, PIC and 2 crew aircraft, and for some reason they made one requirement more valuable than the other.

It’s hilarious how TC had a chance to fix something I think everyone in the industry agreed on (flight instructors and other pilots with no 703/705 experience getting an AIRLINE pilot license) but they still manage to screw it up.

[rudder]

Just curious - if TC is now so adamant about “compliance with the ICAO standard” then why don’t they also annotate any ATPL licence over age 65 as ‘Age does not meet ICAO requirements’?

TC made the decision to go down the rabbit hole.

[careerpilot?]

If TC was capable of using logic they would’ve made it so that the skill check not done as PIC, but in a two crew aircraft, would also qualify for this “restricted ATPL”. Instead, now technically someone could do their initial group 1 flight test in a clapped out Seminole, gain all the required time within 12 months of that skill check and be given a restricted ATPL, without having any airline experience whatsoever. TC figured the ICAO ATPL skill check has two requirements, PIC and 2 crew aircraft, and for some reason they made one requirement more valuable than the other.

It’s hilarious how TC had a chance to fix something I think everyone in the industry agreed on (flight instructors and other pilots with no 703/705 experience getting an AIRLINE pilot license) but they still manage to screw it up.

Couldn’t agree more!

Plus now you may have some FOs facing examination expiries that didn’t expect this when they wrote them approaching their hour requirements….

[‘Bob’]

If TC was capable of using logic they would’ve made it so that the skill check not done as PIC, but in a two crew aircraft, would also qualify for this “restricted ATPL”. Instead, now technically someone could do their initial group 1 flight test in a clapped out Seminole, gain all the required time within 12 months of that skill check and be given a restricted ATPL, without having any airline experience whatsoever. TC figured the ICAO ATPL skill check has two requirements, PIC and 2 crew aircraft, and for some reason they made one requirement more valuable than the other.

It’s hilarious how TC had a chance to fix something I think everyone in the industry agreed on (flight instructors and other pilots with no 703/705 experience getting an AIRLINE pilot license) but they still manage to screw it up.

Couldn’t agree more!

Plus now you may have some FOs facing examination expiries that didn’t expect this when they wrote them approaching their hour requirements….

You’re missing something.

You can’t command a two crew aircraft without an ATPL. Which means your “skill test” is just riding along with a safety net.

My “in the circuit” PIC experience that was decisive to getting my ATPL has saved me numerous times in two crew aircraft regardless of how many sky gods said it was useless..

..and I’ve seen expensive examples of where it was lacking in straight into 704/705 PICUS types who always had “dad” to call upon until they were in the hot seat.

I bet a lot of people here would have their hands full in a Seminole single pilot IFR. I know I would be.

Learning airline operations is what LOFT is for. You’re overwhelmed for a week, struggling for a month, competent for a year, and bored for the rest. Oh no… dispatch does everything for me!