Encore downgrading recently hired DEC

[flyforfun]

I have a buddy who was hired at Encore as a DEC just over a year ago. With the Toronto base now closing, it sounds like there will be a rebid. From what he’s hearing, some of the DECs hired in the past couple of years could end up getting downgraded to FO while pilots with significantly less experience move into those captain spots elsewhere. Tough situation for those guys.

[co-joe]

If they have a reduction bid, typically companies only bump people out of their bases and if the number of Captain spots in yyc is being reduced then downgrades will happen, but it's unusual for a company to have upgrades during a reduction bid. I don't know the Encore collective agreement at all, but your friend would definitely want to reach out to his Captain rep. I suppose if the collective agreement calls for a system wide re-bid it's possible, it just wouldn't make much sense as a cost saving measure.

[altiplano]

Seniority system, right?

A junior Captain on junior base shouldn't be status protected into another base when their position on their base is eliminated. The senior pilot moving into an upgrade vacancy on the senior base has seniority rights.

[nohojob]

We saw it during with swg integration

[‘Bob’]

I guess when he upgrades again that would be considered an….

Encore performance

[phenix]

If he was hired as DEC, he’s already out of seniority by design. Not sure how he could be downgraded since he didn’t get hired as a FO as the first place.

[altiplano]

If he was hired as DEC, he’s already out of seniority by design. Not sure how he could be downgraded since he didn’t get hired as a FO as the first place.

He was hired as a pilot and was able to go to a position with his seniority that had a vacancy only because nobody that was already on the property took it. That position happened to be a Captain position at XYZ base. Now that position is gone and he's going to be a pilot at ABC base in a position his seniority can hold. That may not be Captain. If the Captain job at XYZ base returns, that pilot may have first rights to it, but they don't own every Captain position at every base at the airline out of seniority.

The structure of airlines is that pilots are hired and those pilots fill positions, some positions are Captains, some positions are First Officers... Some bases/types are more desirable and therefore more senior than at others where positions go junior.

[phenix]

At Encore, the job postings read “direct entry Captain” for these positions, which means applicants applied for a specific position of captain, it doesn’t get decided after hiring.
I’m sure most DEC at Encore wouldn’t have applied to the job if it wasn’t direct entry. I don’t know how things work at Encore but, on a legal standpoint, that sounds different from someone who would take a FO position and be upgraded on day 1.

[cdnavater]

At Encore, the job postings read “direct entry Captain” for these positions, which means applicants applied for a specific position of captain, it doesn’t get decided after hiring.
I’m sure most DEC at Encore wouldn’t have applied to the job if it wasn’t direct entry. I don’t know how things work at Encore but, on a legal standpoint, that sounds different from someone who would take a FO position and be upgraded on day 1.

That may be so but the fact remains they were hired to a union job with a seniority list, that alone dictates where they are on the list if things fall apart. They aren’t special employees, as any FO who was there before them upgrades, these DEC get pushed down the list and I guarantee they are well aware of their situation.
So, if their position is eliminated in YYZ, they are being forced to choose, move to another base at a position their seniority holds or find a new job.

[digits_]

That may be so but the fact remains they were hired to a union job with a seniority list, that alone dictates where they are on the list if things fall apart. They aren’t special employees, as any FO who was there before them upgrades, these DEC get pushed down the list and I guarantee they are well aware of their situation.
So, if their position is eliminated in YYZ, they are being forced to choose, move to another base at a position their seniority holds or find a new job.

Do you know this, or are you assuming this?

Depending on the wording of the contract and promises made, a constructive dismissal suit could be considered.

Depending on when one was hired, management could potentially already have been anticipating base closures, which could give the affected pilots more ammunition for the bait and switch conplaint.

[cdnavater]

That may be so but the fact remains they were hired to a union job with a seniority list, that alone dictates where they are on the list if things fall apart. They aren’t special employees, as any FO who was there before them upgrades, these DEC get pushed down the list and I guarantee they are well aware of their situation.
So, if their position is eliminated in YYZ, they are being forced to choose, move to another base at a position their seniority holds or find a new job.

Do you know this, or are you assuming this?

Depending on the wording of the contract and promises made, a constructive dismissal suit could be considered.

Depending on when one was hired, management could potentially already have been anticipating base closures, which could give the affected pilots more ammunition for the bait and switch conplaint.

Of course I’m assuming, it’s based on my long time industry knowledge, the fact that Jazz hired DEC captains and they are in the same boat. I’d wager a ton of money on the fact they were not hired as contract employees when there is a union collective agreement in force, it would be extremely unusual for a company with a union to make any promises that they would protect their position and or pay out of seniority, it would require the union to sign off on this, this has never been mentioned so I’m very comfortable stating it as fact!

[digits_]

Of course I’m assuming, it’s based on my long time industry knowledge, the fact that Jazz hired DEC captains and they are in the same boat. I’d wager a ton of money on the fact they were not hired as contract employees when there is a union collective agreement in force, it would be extremely unusual for a company with a union to make any promises that they would protect their position and or pay out of seniority, it would require the union to sign off on this, this has never been mentioned so I’m very comfortable stating it as fact!

It happens. I was once hired as a DEC in a union organization. I had a written confirmation of the position and base I was hired in. The union was aware. I don't think I would have gotten special treatment in case of layoffs or base closures -that was never discussed -, but the written promises would certainly have helped to create an alternative to just quitting or taking a pay cut.

Unless someone can attest to the specifics of the Encore contract, it could go either way. I doubt the DEC candidates would have accepted the job without any promises to position and base, but I suppose it's possible.

[altiplano]

Collective Agreements are public record. You can't purport to make a side deal and expect enforcement. You will lose.

https://negotech.service.canada.ca/eng/ ... 33202a.pdf

15-10.05.
In the event of a bid where a PSB has both additional Vacancies and a requirement for Position reductions without layoffs, the Vacancies bid awards shall be processed prior to the reduction bid. The Vacancies bid shall be facilitated in accordance with Section 15-8 – Position Vacancy Awards. In the event the primary Vacancies and reduction bid results in additional Vacancies, those secondary Vacancies shall be processed following the reduction bid.

15-10.06.
The reduction bid shall be accomplished as follows:

a) The PSB process shall be used to facilitate the bid;
b) A Pilot may displace a more junior Pilot in any Position;
c) A Pilot who is reduced or displaced shall be Awarded a Position
in accordance with their PSB. A Pilot’s bid shall only be actioned
in the event of displacement or reduction;
d) A Pilot who is displaced or reduced shall not be subject to any
freeze in their new Position in accordance with Section 15-12.02
below;
e) A displaced Pilot who fails to place a bid for sufficient Positions
that their Seniority can hold shall be assigned a remaining
Position by the Company in accordance with their Seniority; and
f) Upon completion of the PSB, all Pilot bids shall be deleted.


13-8 CAPTAIN UPGRADE
13-8.01. A Pilot shall become eligible for Upgrade training based on operational requirements in accordance with their Seniority number on the PSL, by having established technical performance which is consistent with that required for Upgrade and meeting the minimum flight time requirements as outlined in the training guidelines in accordance with Section 13-2.01 above.

[phenix]

Collective Agreements are public record. You can't purport to make a side deal and expect enforcement. You will lose.

https://negotech.service.canada.ca/eng/ ... 33202a.pdf

15-10.05.
In the event of a bid where a PSB has both additional Vacancies and a requirement for Position reductions without layoffs, the Vacancies bid awards shall be processed prior to the reduction bid. The Vacancies bid shall be facilitated in accordance with Section 15-8 – Position Vacancy Awards. In the event the primary Vacancies and reduction bid results in additional Vacancies, those secondary Vacancies shall be processed following the reduction bid.

15-10.06.
The reduction bid shall be accomplished as follows:

a) The PSB process shall be used to facilitate the bid;
b) A Pilot may displace a more junior Pilot in any Position;
c) A Pilot who is reduced or displaced shall be Awarded a Position
in accordance with their PSB. A Pilot’s bid shall only be actioned
in the event of displacement or reduction;
d) A Pilot who is displaced or reduced shall not be subject to any
freeze in their new Position in accordance with Section 15-12.02
below;
e) A displaced Pilot who fails to place a bid for sufficient Positions
that their Seniority can hold shall be assigned a remaining
Position by the Company in accordance with their Seniority; and
f) Upon completion of the PSB, all Pilot bids shall be deleted.


13-8 CAPTAIN UPGRADE
13-8.01. A Pilot shall become eligible for Upgrade training based on operational requirements in accordance with their Seniority number on the PSL, by having established technical performance which is consistent with that required for Upgrade and meeting the minimum flight time requirements as outlined in the training guidelines in accordance with Section 13-2.01 above.

Thanks for that.
Clearly their CA offers no protection to DEC, these portions of the CA are a copy-paste of mainline contract (or vice versa)… I haven’t even seen any mention of DEC in their CA.
I guess DEC are SOL then. Being hired for a position then being demoted so someone else takes your position wouldn’t hold water in many industries, but this is aviation and this is ALPA.

[digits_]

Collective Agreements are public record. You can't purport to make a side deal and expect enforcement. You will lose.

https://negotech.service.canada.ca/eng/ ... 33202a.pdf

15-10.05.
In the event of a bid where a PSB has both additional Vacancies and a requirement for Position reductions without layoffs, the Vacancies bid awards shall be processed prior to the reduction bid. The Vacancies bid shall be facilitated in accordance with Section 15-8 – Position Vacancy Awards. In the event the primary Vacancies and reduction bid results in additional Vacancies, those secondary Vacancies shall be processed following the reduction bid.

15-10.06.
The reduction bid shall be accomplished as follows:

a) The PSB process shall be used to facilitate the bid;
b) A Pilot may displace a more junior Pilot in any Position;
c) A Pilot who is reduced or displaced shall be Awarded a Position
in accordance with their PSB. A Pilot’s bid shall only be actioned
in the event of displacement or reduction;
d) A Pilot who is displaced or reduced shall not be subject to any
freeze in their new Position in accordance with Section 15-12.02
below;
e) A displaced Pilot who fails to place a bid for sufficient Positions
that their Seniority can hold shall be assigned a remaining
Position by the Company in accordance with their Seniority; and
f) Upon completion of the PSB, all Pilot bids shall be deleted.


13-8 CAPTAIN UPGRADE
13-8.01. A Pilot shall become eligible for Upgrade training based on operational requirements in accordance with their Seniority number on the PSL, by having established technical performance which is consistent with that required for Upgrade and meeting the minimum flight time requirements as outlined in the training guidelines in accordance with Section 13-2.01 above.

Thanks for that.
Clearly their CA offers no protection to DEC, these portions of the CA are a copy-paste of mainline contract (or vice versa)… I haven’t even seen any mention of DEC in their CA.
I guess DEC are SOL then. Being hired for a position then being demoted so someone else takes your position wouldn’t hold water in many industries, but this is aviation and this is ALPA.

While likely, it's not guaranteed. There could be an LOU that the union signed off on. Those are typically not publically accessible. And again, there could be additional paperwork signed by or written promises made by management upon hiring. We don't know.

[Bede]

I guess DEC are SOL then. Being hired for a position then being demoted so someone else takes your position wouldn’t hold water in many industries, but this is aviation and this is ALPA.

Huh? Someone who is in their position out of seniority has to now accept a position that their seniority can hold. Seems pretty common sense for any seniority based organization.

The only time that usually happens is in mergers where, in almost all cases, positions are either protected, or there is a reinstatement right to a rank and/or base for anyone displaced in a rebid.

[altiplano]

I guess DEC are SOL then. Being hired for a position then being demoted so someone else takes your position wouldn’t hold water in many industries, but this is aviation and this is ALPA.

The position they were hired to doesn't exist anymore. Those senior pilots aren't taking "their" position.

SECTION I-1 DEFINITIONS AND ABBREVIATIONS ........................................................

Position
A Pilot’s Rank, Equipment and Home Base.

[Tolippilot]

I have it on good authority, ive spoken with multiple people throughout the company knowledgeable on this matter. Encore will now only have one base YYC, of that base there are two positions captain and first officer. Through the section listed above 15-10, a company wide rebid will take place. Where all pilots have to bid on a position that their seniority can hold. The company has created more then enough new captain positions to accommodate all yyz captains to transfer to yyc with no yyc captains being affected. However. Because this is a company wide rebid, it is very possible for some more senior FOs to bid on available yyc captain positions. Its impossible to say how every one will bid. This bid is soley based off of senority, no other factors. So it stands to reason that if enough senior FOs bid for captain positions, it could lead to the most junior yyc captains being moved to FO positions. I don't believe it is the companies intention for this to happen, but being a seniority based company wide bid. The results will be the results. Id say if your the bottom 10 most junior yyc captains, id be concerned. Those concerns will more then likly be mitigated by the company, and it will likly be fine. But there is cause to be concerned for sure, contact your captain reps.

[altiplano]

Why would they do full flush and re-bid when they already have a collective agreement covering this?

No advantage to the company to want to do it, increase training, lost productivity, they ultimately don't care who fills the seat. I can't see there being an advantage to the pilot group for the association to want to pursue it either.

[Dry Guy]

This is a smart HR strategy to attract pilots. Promise them Captain wages and then when they quit their job to come join your airline you demote them.

[phenix]

I guess DEC are SOL then. Being hired for a position then being demoted so someone else takes your position wouldn’t hold water in many industries, but this is aviation and this is ALPA.

The position they were hired to doesn't exist anymore. Those senior pilots aren't taking "their" position.

SECTION I-1 DEFINITIONS AND ABBREVIATIONS ........................................................

Position
A Pilot’s Rank, Equipment and Home Base.

flyforfun didn’t say the potentially affected DEC were YYZ based. There is no junior Captain in YYZ, the ones who could lose their spot would be DEC YYC.

[altiplano]

I misunderstood and assumed YYC was the senior base. All the same, seniority rules. If there are eliminated positions with displaced pilots that are senior, they can bump the junior pilot when they move.

[flyforfun]

Hearing from my buddy there were no downgrades after the YYZ closure. Looks like it worked out without any captains being pushed back to FO. Good outcome for DECs, though probably frustrating for FOs waiting on upgrades.

[FL030]

Nobody likes a DEC. It's a great way to tank morale at your airline.

[cdnavater]

Nobody likes a DEC. It's a great way to tank morale at your airline.

There would be no DECs if the FOs were ready to upgrade, you can’t blame an experienced pilot from taking the position.
I would only do it if I were absolutely desperate, you will sit bottom of the list for a long time as FOs do start upgrading!