Is it worth ramping still?

[lostav8r]

I talked to multiple operators and surprisingly they were all quite friendly! I was told in todays environment it's a minimum of 2 years before getting right seat and this was in small towns. I heard Wasaya won't even hire anymore for ramp to flight since the wait times are so long!

I know you can't time this industry but would it make more sense to just stick to a different job for now?

[Eric Janson]

I know you can't time this industry but would it make more sense to just stick to a different job for now?

You have to start somewhere.
You can demonstrate your attitude and work effort - people in this Industry know each other. It's a small world.
You can continue to look for something else while you're working.
You can develop some contacts.
Learn some new skills.

It's your choice - make the decision that's right for you.

[jbreeze]

I started on the ramp in 2020 during COVID. At that time, you were just lucky to get a ramp job, and I did two years before getting a seat, and then things exploded. You never know what could happen next, you just need to start.

[pelmet]

Was a baggage handler and an aircraft maintenance helper at a couple of different companies. Learned quite a bit that applies to flying. Shows interest and knowledge in the field as compared to burger flipping or four years for a useless degree(as it relates to aviation).

[propfeather]

Expand your horizons, get out of Ontario. The hiring pace might not be as rapid as 2022-2023, but people are still changing jobs, there are options out there that would likely get you into a plane within a year depending on your timing.

[lostav8r]

Expand your horizons, get out of Ontario. The hiring pace might not be as rapid as 2022-2023, but people are still changing jobs, there are options out there that would likely get you into a plane within a year depending on your timing.

The problem is it seems only the NWT have that kind of pace of ramp to flight, but my savings are already gone from training. Don't think I can afford to live off loans for 3+ years now while paying back training.

[piperdriver]

No.

[propfeather]

Expand your horizons, get out of Ontario. The hiring pace might not be as rapid as 2022-2023, but people are still changing jobs, there are options out there that would likely get you into a plane within a year depending on your timing.

The problem is it seems only the NWT have that kind of pace of ramp to flight, but my savings are already gone from training. Don't think I can afford to live off loans for 3+ years now while paying back training.

Well I think you'll run into the same problem regardless of where you are then.

Look into places with free/cheap accommodations, remote helps.

[lostav8r]

Was a baggage handler and an aircraft maintenance helper at a couple of different companies. Learned quite a bit that applies to flying. Shows interest and knowledge in the field as compared to burger flipping or four years for a useless degree(as it relates to aviation).

Yeah, fair points!

Expand your horizons, get out of Ontario. The hiring pace might not be as rapid as 2022-2023, but people are still changing jobs, there are options out there that would likely get you into a plane within a year depending on your timing.

The problem is it seems only the NWT have that kind of pace of ramp to flight, but my savings are already gone from training. Don't think I can afford to live off loans for 3+ years now while paying back training.

Well I think you'll run into the same problem regardless of where you are then.

Look into places with free/cheap accommodations, remote helps.

Yeah good point, I'll try to find somewhere the crew house is provided

No.

What is your suggestion to break into the industry?

[JungleRiot]

Do you really have a choice at this point?

[lostav8r]

Do you really have a choice at this point?

I'm not sure, I feel it might make sense to "wait it out" at my day job, so I can at least keep current and flying occasionally.

[Blueontop]

Do you really have a choice at this point?

I'm not sure, I feel it might make sense to "wait it out" at my day job, so I can at least keep current and flying occasionally.

The best time to get your foot in the door in aviation was yesterday. The second best time is today..

Shit or get off the pot.

[I WAS Pez]

Do you really have a choice at this point?

I'm not sure, I feel it might make sense to "wait it out" at my day job, so I can at least keep current and flying occasionally.

The best time to get your foot in the door in aviation was yesterday. The second best time is today..

Shit or get off the pot.

True.

Also, flying jobs for low timers exist. This is still an industry where showing up and shaking hands matters...depending on the operator, other skills and experience you may bring to the table may also matter a great deal. So yes, there are plenty of operators with more formal "ramp to flight" sorts of things, there are lots of other little operators where things are less formal, that may get you flying faster, depending on how you work out. And if you're lucky, and show up and make a favourable impression to the right person on the right day, you may end up with a flying job sooner than you'd thought.

There are a LOT of little operators all across Canada.... and they get piles of CVs by email. My usual suggestion is to make a list - hit the big places of course, but don't neglect the smaller out of the way places. Find operators you'd like to work for and show up. You could send a CV ahead with a well written, customized cover letter, but unless they say not to, show up. Talk to the CP or Ops Mgr. If they're not around, chat with other folks, see when you can see them. If things go well, even if they're not hiring - try and stay in touch - fine line here, don't overdo it. Remember, everyone you see when you walk in the door of a little operator knows what you're there for - and in many cases may have at least some say in the overall impression you make (ie, don't come across as a jackass, to anyone). Of note, you don't need to wait for a position to be posted.

[digits_]

Do you really have a choice at this point?

I'm not sure, I feel it might make sense to "wait it out" at my day job, so I can at least keep current and flying occasionally.

The best time to get your foot in the door in aviation was yesterday. The second best time is today..

Shit or get off the pot.

If this involves a flying job, then yes. If we're talking about a ramp job, not necessarily.

If the OP has a non aviation job at the moment which would allow him to visit operators every weekend, and makes enough money to keep current, then that would be my preference over a ramp job without a clear time line to a flying job, in which it would be impossible to travel the country to find that next job.

Ramp jobs do not always lead to a flying position. And they rarely lead to a flying position within your expected timeframe.

[philaviate]

Do you really have a choice at this point?

I'm not sure, I feel it might make sense to "wait it out" at my day job, so I can at least keep current and flying occasionally.

The best time to get your foot in the door in aviation was yesterday. The second best time is today..

Shit or get off the pot.

The problem is you're calling a ramp job a foot in the door.
It's often a step in the wrong direction.
The only job worth it is either a flying job, or an unrelated job that gives you the income to time build a bit until you get the flying job.

Ramp jobs are glorified slave labour with the promise of a carrot in the future.

In no other industry is this nonsense accepted.

You're a professional, qualified pilot, no different to many other trades and professions.

[leafs95]

I'm not sure, I feel it might make sense to "wait it out" at my day job, so I can at least keep current and flying occasionally.

The best time to get your foot in the door in aviation was yesterday. The second best time is today..

Shit or get off the pot.

The problem is you're calling a ramp job a foot in the door.
It's often a step in the wrong direction.
The only job worth it is either a flying job, or an unrelated job that gives you the income to time build a bit until you get the flying job.

Ramp jobs are glorified slave labour with the promise of a carrot in the future.

In no other industry is this nonsense accepted.

You're a professional, qualified pilot, no different to many other trades and professions.

+1

It has ALWAYS been about cheap labour in less-than-desirable places. How do you get out of properly paying someone to work the ramp in Thompson or Pickle Lake? Just hire pilots to do it for minimum wage.

Makes me laugh every time I see someone say "it builds character" or "helps prove yourself to management". It's all about "proving yourself" until it's time for OTS hire after OTS hire to pass by you while you're 2+ years in to your ground to flight scheme. No thanks.

[cdnavater]

The best time to get your foot in the door in aviation was yesterday. The second best time is today..

Shit or get off the pot.

The problem is you're calling a ramp job a foot in the door.
It's often a step in the wrong direction.
The only job worth it is either a flying job, or an unrelated job that gives you the income to time build a bit until you get the flying job.

Ramp jobs are glorified slave labour with the promise of a carrot in the future.

In no other industry is this nonsense accepted.

You're a professional, qualified pilot, no different to many other trades and professions.

+1

It has ALWAYS been about cheap labour in less-than-desirable places. How do you get out of properly paying someone to work the ramp in Thompson or Pickle Lake? Just hire pilots to do it for minimum wage.

Makes me laugh every time I see someone say "it builds character" or "helps prove yourself to management". It's all about "proving yourself" until it's time for OTS hire after OTS hire to pass by you while you're 2+ years in to your ground to flight scheme. No thanks.

It is true, it likely prevents these companies from paying more for permanent employees but at the same time denying that a ramp job almost always leads to a flying job is naive.
You can choose to not work a ramp job, likely making more money but you will be behind the ones that choose to do it, you will probably be working longer at that other job, keeping in mind there are more pilots than ramp jobs, let along flying jobs.
It sucks but really not all that different from articling at a lawyer’s office.

[philaviate]

The problem is you're calling a ramp job a foot in the door.
It's often a step in the wrong direction.
The only job worth it is either a flying job, or an unrelated job that gives you the income to time build a bit until you get the flying job.

Ramp jobs are glorified slave labour with the promise of a carrot in the future.

In no other industry is this nonsense accepted.

You're a professional, qualified pilot, no different to many other trades and professions.

+1

It has ALWAYS been about cheap labour in less-than-desirable places. How do you get out of properly paying someone to work the ramp in Thompson or Pickle Lake? Just hire pilots to do it for minimum wage.

Makes me laugh every time I see someone say "it builds character" or "helps prove yourself to management". It's all about "proving yourself" until it's time for OTS hire after OTS hire to pass by you while you're 2+ years in to your ground to flight scheme. No thanks.

It is true, it likely prevents these companies from paying more for permanent employees but at the same time denying that a ramp job almost always leads to a flying job is naive.
You can choose to not work a ramp job, likely making more money but you will be behind the ones that choose to do it, you will probably be working longer at that other job, keeping in mind there are more pilots than ramp jobs, let along flying jobs.
It sucks but really not all that different from articling at a lawyer’s office.

Nonsense.

I don't know anyone who has done a ramp job who got ahead quicker than those who took other paths.

Most get stuck there for 1-2 years, and then the flying often isn't that good if it ever comes. Most decent people can get a reasonable flying job much sooner than that. I know, I hire loads of them for my company.

[pelmet]

+1

It has ALWAYS been about cheap labour in less-than-desirable places. How do you get out of properly paying someone to work the ramp in Thompson or Pickle Lake? Just hire pilots to do it for minimum wage.

Makes me laugh every time I see someone say "it builds character" or "helps prove yourself to management". It's all about "proving yourself" until it's time for OTS hire after OTS hire to pass by you while you're 2+ years in to your ground to flight scheme. No thanks.

It is true, it likely prevents these companies from paying more for permanent employees but at the same time denying that a ramp job almost always leads to a flying job is naive.
You can choose to not work a ramp job, likely making more money but you will be behind the ones that choose to do it, you will probably be working longer at that other job, keeping in mind there are more pilots than ramp jobs, let along flying jobs.
It sucks but really not all that different from articling at a lawyer’s office.

Nonsense.

I don't know anyone who has done a ramp job who got ahead quicker than those who took other paths.

Most get stuck there for 1-2 years, and then the flying often isn't that good if it ever comes. Most decent people can get a reasonable flying job much sooner than that. I know, I hire loads of them for my company.

Probably all kinds of Buffalo Airways pilots got ahead by ramping.

[philaviate]

It is true, it likely prevents these companies from paying more for permanent employees but at the same time denying that a ramp job almost always leads to a flying job is naive.
You can choose to not work a ramp job, likely making more money but you will be behind the ones that choose to do it, you will probably be working longer at that other job, keeping in mind there are more pilots than ramp jobs, let along flying jobs.
It sucks but really not all that different from articling at a lawyer’s office.

Nonsense.

I don't know anyone who has done a ramp job who got ahead quicker than those who took other paths.

Most get stuck there for 1-2 years, and then the flying often isn't that good if it ever comes. Most decent people can get a reasonable flying job much sooner than that. I know, I hire loads of them for my company.

Probably all kinds of Buffalo Airways pilots got ahead by ramping.

Yep, their fence painting business is booming. Valuable skills for pilots. Probably character building to be paid less than minimum wage too. I mean, you should be paying them for such great experience. It'll really help you when flying to minimums in the future.

[pelmet]

Nonsense.

I don't know anyone who has done a ramp job who got ahead quicker than those who took other paths.

Most get stuck there for 1-2 years, and then the flying often isn't that good if it ever comes. Most decent people can get a reasonable flying job much sooner than that. I know, I hire loads of them for my company.

Probably all kinds of Buffalo Airways pilots got ahead by ramping.

Yep, their fence painting business is booming. Valuable skills for pilots. Probably character building to be paid less than minimum wage too. I mean, you should be paying them for such great experience. It'll really help you when flying to minimums in the future.

They still got ahead by ramping.

Are you saying that Buffalo pays less than minimum wage? Do you have evidence of this? Perhops it should be reported to the government if they are doing that.

[philaviate]

Probably all kinds of Buffalo Airways pilots got ahead by ramping.

Yep, their fence painting business is booming. Valuable skills for pilots. Probably character building to be paid less than minimum wage too. I mean, you should be paying them for such great experience. It'll really help you when flying to minimums in the future.

They still got ahead by ramping.

Are you saying that Buffalo pays less than minimum wage? Do you have evidence of this? Perhops it should be reported to the government if they are doing that.

How did they get ahead if they spent two years slinging a snow shovel before getting right seat on some crappy old plane vs the pilot who got a 172 survey job gaining pic hours? The 172 pilot could be applying for real jobs in a year or two. The ramp slave might not have even sat in a plane by then. And even after a year or two of painting fences they are now just getting SIC hours.

And yes, some certainly do pay less than minimum wage.
There was one here discussed recently. It said something like $36k a year, 12 hour shifts 5-6 days a week. No overtime. Oh and you got the joy of living in NWT or Yukon somewhere.

As for buffalo don't they still pay by the mile? So if your 80 year old heap of shit craps out you get to spend two weeks in the Arctic with no pay while it gets fixed.

The only ramp job I've seen that is even slightly appealing is places like airsprint where they take a 200hr pilot from school and within a year or so they are right seat on a modern jet at a career company.
Most ramp jobs are more like this steaming pile of crap.

viewtopic.php?t=232174

This one doesn't even have planes!!!

[pelmet]

Yep, their fence painting business is booming. Valuable skills for pilots. Probably character building to be paid less than minimum wage too. I mean, you should be paying them for such great experience. It'll really help you when flying to minimums in the future.

They still got ahead by ramping.

Are you saying that Buffalo pays less than minimum wage? Do you have evidence of this? Perhops it should be reported to the government if they are doing that.

How did they get ahead if they spent two years slinging a snow shovel before getting right seat on some crappy old plane vs the pilot who got a 172 survey job gaining pic hours? The 172 pilot could be applying for real jobs in a year or two. The ramp slave might not have even sat in a plane by then. And even after a year or two of painting fences they are now just getting SIC hours.

And yes, some certainly do pay less than minimum wage.
There was one here discussed recently. It said something like $36k a year, 12 hour shifts 5-6 days a week. No overtime. Oh and you got the joy of living in NWT or Yukon somewhere.

As for buffalo don't they still pay by the mile? So if your 80 year old heap of shit craps out you get to spend two weeks in the Arctic with no pay while it gets fixed.

The only ramp job I've seen that is even slightly appealing is places like airsprint where they take a 200hr pilot from school and within a year or so they are right seat on a modern jet at a career company.
Most ramp jobs are more like this steaming pile of crap.

viewtopic.php?t=232174

This one doesn't even have planes!!!

If they are breaking the law, maybe they should be reported to whoever enforces such activity. Never really thought about it actually. Do companies ever face criminal charges?

Is there something wrong with the NWT and Yukon? Is Pickle Lake or places like that more appropriate.

Is a c46 less desirable than a 172 because it is older?

[propfeather]

How did they get ahead if they spent two years slinging a snow shovel before getting right seat on some crappy old plane vs the pilot who got a 172 survey job gaining pic hours? The 172 pilot could be applying for real jobs in a year or two. The ramp slave might not have even sat in a plane by then. And even after a year or two of painting fences they are now just getting SIC hours.

The difference is that without contacts/timing, you may never get that entry level job with zero operational experience.

It's absolutely more desirable/valuable to get that flying job (especially PIC) with a fresh CPL but those jobs are not as easy to come across. (And can also be somewhat unstable, with low pay as well).

I would certainly be doing anything in my power to get one of these entry level flying jobs over a ramp job. But a ramp job at a reputable operation with a proven track record for putting ground staff into planes in a reasonable amount of time can be a decent option while you continue to apply for entry level flying jobs. Do your research!

I was dead set on only getting a flying job once I finished my CPL, but circumstances led me to taking a ramp job. People I met at this ramp job are the reason I was hired at my next two flying jobs, so you just never know.

[cdnavater]

How did they get ahead if they spent two years slinging a snow shovel before getting right seat on some crappy old plane vs the pilot who got a 172 survey job gaining pic hours? The 172 pilot could be applying for real jobs in a year or two. The ramp slave might not have even sat in a plane by then. And even after a year or two of painting fences they are now just getting SIC hours.

The difference is that without contacts/timing, you may never get that entry level job with zero operational experience.

It's absolutely more desirable/valuable to get that flying job (especially PIC) with a fresh CPL but those jobs are not as easy to come across. (And can also be somewhat unstable, with low pay as well).

I would certainly be doing anything in my power to get one of these entry level flying jobs over a ramp job. But a ramp job at a reputable operation with a proven track record for putting ground staff into planes in a reasonable amount of time can be a decent option while you continue to apply for entry level flying jobs. Do your research!

I was dead set on only getting a flying job once I finished my CPL, but circumstances led me to taking a ramp job. People I met at this ramp job are the reason I was hired at my next two flying jobs, so you just never know.

No, according to phil, there are tons of jobs for entry level pilots, more jobs than pilots is implied!
For what it’s worth, back in the 90s, I hired pilots without a ramp position. Some were ramping at the operation next door but there were far more pilots than jobs. My info is obviously out dated but I can’t imagine it’s that different, more pilots than jobs, most certainly now that things have slowed down.