How long is ramp to flying at sykcare?

[lostav8r]

Yes, I know people will come out the woodwork but unless you have a better suggestion of where to go I'm pretty desperate at this point.

I spoke to multiple small operators and they said 2-3 years ramping before a flying position comes up, how long would skycare be?

[JungleRiot]

At this point it'll be easier to marry an American and do your FAA conversion.

[lostav8r]

At this point it'll be easier to marry an American and do your FAA conversion.

I guess this is on me for being open to suggestions

[pelmet]

At this point it'll be easier to marry an American and do your FAA conversion.

Know a couple of pilots that didn’t have to marry to get into US carriers.

One of the pilots I knew did something interesting in order to get on with an American carrier. She has no right to work in the US, so she went to a couple of airlines that hire foreigners. She is now flying 747’s at National Airlines(can’t remember the name of the previous outfit but it was also 74’s). Heard that you are hired by a Dubai-based entity.

Another routing for a fellow I keep in contact with was his ability to work at certain airlines in the US that hire Aussies(they have some sort of agreement that we don’t have). He went to a couple of commuter carriers(Emb and CRJ) and now flies the 747 at Kalitta).

[lostav8r]

At this point it'll be easier to marry an American and do your FAA conversion.

Know a couple of pilots that didn’t have to marry to get into US carriers.

One of the pilots I knew did something interesting in order to get on with an American carrier. She has no right to work in the US, so she went to a couple of airlines that hire foreigners. She is now flying 747’s at National Airlines(can’t remember the name of the previous outfit but it was also 74’s). Heard that you are hired by a Dubai-based entity.

Another routing for a fellow I keep in contact with was his ability to work at certain airlines in the US that hire Aussies(they have some sort of agreement that we don’t have). He went to a couple of commuter carriers(Emb and CRJ) and now flies the 747 at Kalitta).

On a different forum I saw an Australian guy ask about coming to Canada and thought WTF, you're from the only country that the US will give a pilot visa to and you want to come here and freeze your bum off?

[cdnavater]

Yes, I know people will come out the woodwork but unless you have a better suggestion of where to go I'm pretty desperate at this point.

I spoke to multiple small operators and they said 2-3 years ramping before a flying position comes up, how long would skycare be?

Have you called Northwright up in Norman Wells, I know they hire ramp and they have lost a couple pilots lately, sounds like they are a decent place.
I called the C.P over 30 years ago and he told me that if a pilot shows up, he would do his best to hire him, obviously needs to be an opening.
You could call, see if there is any openings and if there are tell whoever it is, you’ll be up there shortly if they would like to meet you, if you make that effort, you’ll eventually get a job there.
Of course, it is likely different now, early 90s is a long time ago, good luck,
As for Skycare, no idea but do be aware, you will be abused, I think it’s a test to see how far you’ll go to fly his aircraft!

[Eric Janson]

Yellowknife not an option?

Season starting right now as the ice goes out.

[propfeather]

I believe Tindi gives you a PPC right away, then you do part time flying/part time ramp for a year or so.

[pelmet]

At this point it'll be easier to marry an American and do your FAA conversion.

Know a couple of pilots that didn’t have to marry to get into US carriers.

One of the pilots I knew did something interesting in order to get on with an American carrier. She has no right to work in the US, so she went to a couple of airlines that hire foreigners. She is now flying 747’s at National Airlines(can’t remember the name of the previous outfit but it was also 74’s). Heard that you are hired by a Dubai-based entity.

Another routing for a fellow I keep in contact with was his ability to work at certain airlines in the US that hire Aussies(they have some sort of agreement that we don’t have). He went to a couple of commuter carriers(Emb and CRJ) and now flies the 747 at Kalitta).

On a different forum I saw an Australian guy ask about coming to Canada and thought WTF, you're from the only country that the US will give a pilot visa to and you want to come here and freeze your bum off?

Possibly a high time versus low time situation. Both pilots I referenced had previous big jet time.

Yellowknife not an option?

Season starting right now as the ice goes out.

Maybe time to make a trip to YZF.....and be willing to mow Joe's lawn and paint his fence if asked, regardless of what some on here might say. Or wash the aircraft. I did the latter both before and after being hired from small turboprop to jet(plus dump toilets, cater aircraft, load baggage, strip paint, and change aircraft from pax to freight and back, and de-ice).

[JungleRiot]

Sounds more like a humiliation ritual than anything. Only in Canada are pilots degraded and disrespected to such a low level.

[pelmet]

Sounds more like a humiliation ritual than anything. Only in Canada are pilots degraded and disrespected to such a low level.

Someone doesn't understand how things work in the real world and call working your way up to be huniliation, degraded, disresoected.

AI Search....Do lawyers start off in menial jobs?

"Yes, it is common for new lawyers to start in entry-level positions that involve high-volume, repetitive, and often exhausting work—frequently described as "drinking from a fire hose".While these are professional roles (often as articling students, junior associates, or junior staff), they are considered "menial" in the context of the legal profession because they involve mundane tasks compared to the high-level strategy often associated with being a lawyer."

AI search.....Do doctors start in menial jobs?

"Doctors do not typically start in "menial" (unskilled) jobs, but they do start in low-paying, extremely demanding, and repetitive training roles known as residency. Residents (doctors in training) work 70–80 hours a week for relatively low pay compared to their training level, often performing, grunt work, long shifts, and administrative tasks under supervision before becoming licensed specialists"

AI search......Do train engineers start off in menial jobs?

"Yes, in the traditional railroad career path, train engineers (locomotive engineers) almost always start in entry-level, labor-intensive roles, often referred to as "ground" positions, before they are promoted to the engineer's seat. Here is the breakdown of the path to becoming a train engineer:1. The Typical Starting Point: Conductor First: You do not typically get hired off the street as an engineer. Most engineers start as a conductor. The Work: Conductors are responsible for managing the train, coupling cars, throwing switches, and inspecting equipment. This involves working outside in all weather conditions, walking on uneven gravel ("ballast"), and handling heavy equipment, which some consider "menial" or physically demanding labour Seniority-Based: You must work as a conductor until your seniority is high enough to bid on an engineer training program."

AI Search.....Do CEO's start in menial jobs?

"Yes, a significant number of business CEOs start their careers in frontline, "menial," or entry-level jobs, with research indicating that 60% of top executives began in customer service or sales roles. While many picture top executives starting with prestigious internships, the reality is that many developed foundational skills by working in retail, fast food, or customer service. Key Findings on CEO Early Careers Frontline Experience: Many successful leaders began with hands-on, lower-level jobs. Examples include the CEO of Walmart starting by loading trucks and the CEO of Planet Fitness beginning as a receptionist. "Unusual" Beginnings: Notable, high-profile examples include former Cinnabon CEO Kat Cole starting as a Hooters girl and others working as dance instructors or selling telephone equipment. Common Starting Roles: Beyond just service, LinkedIn analysis found that, for large corporations, top executives frequently start in roles like consultants or software engineers, which offer intense problem-solving experience. Why Early "Menial" Jobs Matter Skill Development: These roles teach essential skills such as teamwork, problem-solving, work ethic, and dealing with customers, which are crucial for later leadership. Empathy and Perspective: Starting from the bottom often allows future leaders to understand the daily realities of frontline employees, which can lead to better management practices. Resilience: Overcoming the challenges of a difficult, low-paying, or intense entry-level job builds mental toughness, which is required for top-tier leadership. While not all CEOs take this path—many come through specialized consulting, engineering, or family businesses—starting in a frontline job is a surprisingly common and highly effective training ground for executive leadership.

[lostav8r]

Sounds more like a humiliation ritual than anything. Only in Canada are pilots degraded and disrespected to such a low level.

Someone doesn't understand how things work in the real world and call working your way up to be huniliation, degraded, disresoected.

AI Search....Do lawyers start off in menial jobs?

"Yes, it is common for new lawyers to start in entry-level positions that involve high-volume, repetitive, and often exhausting work—frequently described as "drinking from a fire hose".While these are professional roles (often as articling students, junior associates, or junior staff), they are considered "menial" in the context of the legal profession because they involve mundane tasks compared to the high-level strategy often associated with being a lawyer."

AI search.....Do doctors start in menial jobs?

"Doctors do not typically start in "menial" (unskilled) jobs, but they do start in low-paying, extremely demanding, and repetitive training roles known as residency. Residents (doctors in training) work 70–80 hours a week for relatively low pay compared to their training level, often performing, grunt work, long shifts, and administrative tasks under supervision before becoming licensed specialists"

AI search......Do train engineers start off in menial jobs?

"Yes, in the traditional railroad career path, train engineers (locomotive engineers) almost always start in entry-level, labor-intensive roles, often referred to as "ground" positions, before they are promoted to the engineer's seat. Here is the breakdown of the path to becoming a train engineer:1. The Typical Starting Point: Conductor First: You do not typically get hired off the street as an engineer. Most engineers start as a conductor. The Work: Conductors are responsible for managing the train, coupling cars, throwing switches, and inspecting equipment. This involves working outside in all weather conditions, walking on uneven gravel ("ballast"), and handling heavy equipment, which some consider "menial" or physically demanding labour Seniority-Based: You must work as a conductor until your seniority is high enough to bid on an engineer training program."

AI Search.....Do CEO's start in menial jobs?

"Yes, a significant number of business CEOs start their careers in frontline, "menial," or entry-level jobs, with research indicating that 60% of top executives began in customer service or sales roles. While many picture top executives starting with prestigious internships, the reality is that many developed foundational skills by working in retail, fast food, or customer service. Key Findings on CEO Early Careers Frontline Experience: Many successful leaders began with hands-on, lower-level jobs. Examples include the CEO of Walmart starting by loading trucks and the CEO of Planet Fitness beginning as a receptionist. "Unusual" Beginnings: Notable, high-profile examples include former Cinnabon CEO Kat Cole starting as a Hooters girl and others working as dance instructors or selling telephone equipment. Common Starting Roles: Beyond just service, LinkedIn analysis found that, for large corporations, top executives frequently start in roles like consultants or software engineers, which offer intense problem-solving experience. Why Early "Menial" Jobs Matter Skill Development: These roles teach essential skills such as teamwork, problem-solving, work ethic, and dealing with customers, which are crucial for later leadership. Empathy and Perspective: Starting from the bottom often allows future leaders to understand the daily realities of frontline employees, which can lead to better management practices. Resilience: Overcoming the challenges of a difficult, low-paying, or intense entry-level job builds mental toughness, which is required for top-tier leadership. While not all CEOs take this path—many come through specialized consulting, engineering, or family businesses—starting in a frontline job is a surprisingly common and highly effective training ground for executive leadership.

Mr. AI search, notice how every single one of those jobs still started in a relevant position to the job that they’re ending up in.

A resident doctor still works on patients, an articling student still works in an office and with legal documents, a conductor still sits inside the train.

Residents don’t clean toilets or wash the CEOS car, conductors don’t work as Carmen, Articling students don’t repair the office they work in etc.

There is no traditional path to becoming CEO for every industry so I’ll leave that one out

[philaviate]

Sounds more like a humiliation ritual than anything. Only in Canada are pilots degraded and disrespected to such a low level.

Someone doesn't understand how things work in the real world and call working your way up to be huniliation, degraded, disresoected.

AI Search....Do lawyers start off in menial jobs?

"Yes, it is common for new lawyers to start in entry-level positions that involve high-volume, repetitive, and often exhausting work—frequently described as "drinking from a fire hose".While these are professional roles (often as articling students, junior associates, or junior staff), they are considered "menial" in the context of the legal profession because they involve mundane tasks compared to the high-level strategy often associated with being a lawyer."

AI search.....Do doctors start in menial jobs?

"Doctors do not typically start in "menial" (unskilled) jobs, but they do start in low-paying, extremely demanding, and repetitive training roles known as residency. Residents (doctors in training) work 70–80 hours a week for relatively low pay compared to their training level, often performing, grunt work, long shifts, and administrative tasks under supervision before becoming licensed specialists"

AI search......Do train engineers start off in menial jobs?

"Yes, in the traditional railroad career path, train engineers (locomotive engineers) almost always start in entry-level, labor-intensive roles, often referred to as "ground" positions, before they are promoted to the engineer's seat. Here is the breakdown of the path to becoming a train engineer:1. The Typical Starting Point: Conductor First: You do not typically get hired off the street as an engineer. Most engineers start as a conductor. The Work: Conductors are responsible for managing the train, coupling cars, throwing switches, and inspecting equipment. This involves working outside in all weather conditions, walking on uneven gravel ("ballast"), and handling heavy equipment, which some consider "menial" or physically demanding labour Seniority-Based: You must work as a conductor until your seniority is high enough to bid on an engineer training program."

AI Search.....Do CEO's start in menial jobs?

"Yes, a significant number of business CEOs start their careers in frontline, "menial," or entry-level jobs, with research indicating that 60% of top executives began in customer service or sales roles. While many picture top executives starting with prestigious internships, the reality is that many developed foundational skills by working in retail, fast food, or customer service. Key Findings on CEO Early Careers Frontline Experience: Many successful leaders began with hands-on, lower-level jobs. Examples include the CEO of Walmart starting by loading trucks and the CEO of Planet Fitness beginning as a receptionist. "Unusual" Beginnings: Notable, high-profile examples include former Cinnabon CEO Kat Cole starting as a Hooters girl and others working as dance instructors or selling telephone equipment. Common Starting Roles: Beyond just service, LinkedIn analysis found that, for large corporations, top executives frequently start in roles like consultants or software engineers, which offer intense problem-solving experience. Why Early "Menial" Jobs Matter Skill Development: These roles teach essential skills such as teamwork, problem-solving, work ethic, and dealing with customers, which are crucial for later leadership. Empathy and Perspective: Starting from the bottom often allows future leaders to understand the daily realities of frontline employees, which can lead to better management practices. Resilience: Overcoming the challenges of a difficult, low-paying, or intense entry-level job builds mental toughness, which is required for top-tier leadership. While not all CEOs take this path—many come through specialized consulting, engineering, or family businesses—starting in a frontline job is a surprisingly common and highly effective training ground for executive leadership.

What moronic drivel, that ironically totally proves you wrong.

All those jobs describe a path doing entry level tasks WITHIN THEIR FIELD. How does painting a fence, shovelling snow, or loading bags relate to flying a plane?

It's an absolute joke that not only do these shitty ramp jobs exist for pilots, but pilots defend them.
Don't you realise if the start of the career wasn't absolute horse crap like it is now we wouldn't have some of the world's worst conditions at the top end of the career too?

I'm lucky that aviation was my second career, but if it wasn't I still wouldn't have degraded my profession by taking a shitty menial job completely unrelated to the career. It only takes one season of these dinosaurs being told to @#$! off and this nonsense ends for good.

[pelmet]

Sounds more like a humiliation ritual than anything. Only in Canada are pilots degraded and disrespected to such a low level.

Someone doesn't understand how things work in the real world and call working your way up to be huniliation, degraded, disresoected.

AI Search....Do lawyers start off in menial jobs?

"Yes, it is common for new lawyers to start in entry-level positions that involve high-volume, repetitive, and often exhausting work—frequently described as "drinking from a fire hose".While these are professional roles (often as articling students, junior associates, or junior staff), they are considered "menial" in the context of the legal profession because they involve mundane tasks compared to the high-level strategy often associated with being a lawyer."

AI search.....Do doctors start in menial jobs?

"Doctors do not typically start in "menial" (unskilled) jobs, but they do start in low-paying, extremely demanding, and repetitive training roles known as residency. Residents (doctors in training) work 70–80 hours a week for relatively low pay compared to their training level, often performing, grunt work, long shifts, and administrative tasks under supervision before becoming licensed specialists"

AI search......Do train engineers start off in menial jobs?

"Yes, in the traditional railroad career path, train engineers (locomotive engineers) almost always start in entry-level, labor-intensive roles, often referred to as "ground" positions, before they are promoted to the engineer's seat. Here is the breakdown of the path to becoming a train engineer:1. The Typical Starting Point: Conductor First: You do not typically get hired off the street as an engineer. Most engineers start as a conductor. The Work: Conductors are responsible for managing the train, coupling cars, throwing switches, and inspecting equipment. This involves working outside in all weather conditions, walking on uneven gravel ("ballast"), and handling heavy equipment, which some consider "menial" or physically demanding labour Seniority-Based: You must work as a conductor until your seniority is high enough to bid on an engineer training program."

AI Search.....Do CEO's start in menial jobs?

"Yes, a significant number of business CEOs start their careers in frontline, "menial," or entry-level jobs, with research indicating that 60% of top executives began in customer service or sales roles. While many picture top executives starting with prestigious internships, the reality is that many developed foundational skills by working in retail, fast food, or customer service. Key Findings on CEO Early Careers Frontline Experience: Many successful leaders began with hands-on, lower-level jobs. Examples include the CEO of Walmart starting by loading trucks and the CEO of Planet Fitness beginning as a receptionist. "Unusual" Beginnings: Notable, high-profile examples include former Cinnabon CEO Kat Cole starting as a Hooters girl and others working as dance instructors or selling telephone equipment. Common Starting Roles: Beyond just service, LinkedIn analysis found that, for large corporations, top executives frequently start in roles like consultants or software engineers, which offer intense problem-solving experience. Why Early "Menial" Jobs Matter Skill Development: These roles teach essential skills such as teamwork, problem-solving, work ethic, and dealing with customers, which are crucial for later leadership. Empathy and Perspective: Starting from the bottom often allows future leaders to understand the daily realities of frontline employees, which can lead to better management practices. Resilience: Overcoming the challenges of a difficult, low-paying, or intense entry-level job builds mental toughness, which is required for top-tier leadership. While not all CEOs take this path—many come through specialized consulting, engineering, or family businesses—starting in a frontline job is a surprisingly common and highly effective training ground for executive leadership.

What moronic drivel, that ironically totally proves you wrong.

All those jobs describe a path doing entry level tasks WITHIN THEIR FIELD. How does painting a fence, shovelling snow, or loading bags relate to flying a plane?

It's an absolute joke that not only do these shitty ramp jobs exist for pilots, but pilots defend them.
Don't you realise if the start of the career wasn't absolute horse crap like it is now we wouldn't have some of the world's worst conditions at the top end of the career too?

I'm lucky that aviation was my second career, but if it wasn't I still wouldn't have degraded my profession by taking a shitty menial job completely unrelated to the career. It only takes one season of these dinosaurs being told to @#$! off and this nonsense ends for good.

Is loading bags on aircraft related. I worked as a baggage handler at an airport which included the loadsheets, marshalling, towing, groundpower, pushbacks, cargo, de-icing. It is very related.

I highly doubt that float operators hiring has any effect on the payscales at AC and WJ.

I suspect the fence painting thing is not the norm. It is likely loading the aircraft, cleaning aircraft, assisting with docking, etc which is related(although I never worked a dock job at a floatplane operation). At my first company, many started in cargo or dispatch. Funny thing was......the other divisions never contacted me when I was trying to get them to hire me into the company but the flight ops division did in the same year and I got my first turbine flying. The new chief pilot mumbled something about the cargo division doesn't decide which pilots he will hire.

However, the original poster now has opposing views on the subject. He can take the advice of others and expect a job in 5 or so years when the next upturn happens or try an alternative method.

One has to learn how to work the system as it is, not as it could be.

[pelmet]

Another reason for hiring on the dock first is that it allows the company to weed out the problem employees prior to getting the pilot job. That could be a personality issue or just general competence, As we have seen in many accidents, there was a competence issue.

Here is a dock job ad. Mostly related items.......

https://harbourair.com/media/25_12_Dock ... df3562.pdf

[lostav8r]

Another reason for hiring on the dock first is that it allows the company to weed out the problem employees prior to getting the pilot job. That could be a personality issue or just general competence, As we have seen in many accidents, there was a competence issue.

Here is a dock job ad. Mostly related items.......

https://harbourair.com/media/25_12_Dock ... df3562.pdf

Harbor air isn't a typical float operator, plus they work year round so it's not like you're chained to the dock for a season then unemployed until next spring.

I know it's not a typical company either but you can see how buffalo air made their guys drive as a courier for 2 year! By that logic does a fedex driver get to fly the 777 after so many years?

I'm kind of sad nobody had info on skycare though!

[pelmet]

Another reason for hiring on the dock first is that it allows the company to weed out the problem employees prior to getting the pilot job. That could be a personality issue or just general competence, As we have seen in many accidents, there was a competence issue.

Here is a dock job ad. Mostly related items.......

https://harbourair.com/media/25_12_Dock ... df3562.pdf

Harbor air isn't a typical float operator, plus they work year round so it's not like you're chained to the dock for a season then unemployed until next spring.

I know it's not a typical company either but you can see how buffalo air made their guys drive as a courier for 2 year! By that logic does a fedex driver get to fly the 777 after so many years?

I'm kind of sad nobody had info on skycare though!

If I remember correctly(from quite a few years ago), Fedex had a policy that prioritized company employees for pilot hiring. Quite a few started as non-flying employees(driving, sorting). If Fedex can do it, why not Buffalo?

[pelmet]

Found it......Had to sling boxes for a minimum of a year(or other position).

Even the big boys do it.
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fede ... lying.html

Now waiting for the goal posts to suddenly change in this discussion.

[lostav8r]

Found it......Had to sling boxes for a minimum of a year(or other position).

Even the big boys do it.
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fede ... lying.html

Now waiting for the goal posts to suddenly change in this discussion.

Do you not see the title of the thread?

But ffs man do I have to spell this out for you?

Ramping is NOT A NORMAL pathway to a flying job in every other country!

FedEx never required pilots to ramp, the old difference is already qualified people (1500 hours) had preference if they were working there full time for a year!

[philaviate]

Someone doesn't understand how things work in the real world and call working your way up to be huniliation, degraded, disresoected.

AI Search....Do lawyers start off in menial jobs?

"Yes, it is common for new lawyers to start in entry-level positions that involve high-volume, repetitive, and often exhausting work—frequently described as "drinking from a fire hose".While these are professional roles (often as articling students, junior associates, or junior staff), they are considered "menial" in the context of the legal profession because they involve mundane tasks compared to the high-level strategy often associated with being a lawyer."

AI search.....Do doctors start in menial jobs?

"Doctors do not typically start in "menial" (unskilled) jobs, but they do start in low-paying, extremely demanding, and repetitive training roles known as residency. Residents (doctors in training) work 70–80 hours a week for relatively low pay compared to their training level, often performing, grunt work, long shifts, and administrative tasks under supervision before becoming licensed specialists"

AI search......Do train engineers start off in menial jobs?

"Yes, in the traditional railroad career path, train engineers (locomotive engineers) almost always start in entry-level, labor-intensive roles, often referred to as "ground" positions, before they are promoted to the engineer's seat. Here is the breakdown of the path to becoming a train engineer:1. The Typical Starting Point: Conductor First: You do not typically get hired off the street as an engineer. Most engineers start as a conductor. The Work: Conductors are responsible for managing the train, coupling cars, throwing switches, and inspecting equipment. This involves working outside in all weather conditions, walking on uneven gravel ("ballast"), and handling heavy equipment, which some consider "menial" or physically demanding labour Seniority-Based: You must work as a conductor until your seniority is high enough to bid on an engineer training program."

AI Search.....Do CEO's start in menial jobs?

"Yes, a significant number of business CEOs start their careers in frontline, "menial," or entry-level jobs, with research indicating that 60% of top executives began in customer service or sales roles. While many picture top executives starting with prestigious internships, the reality is that many developed foundational skills by working in retail, fast food, or customer service. Key Findings on CEO Early Careers Frontline Experience: Many successful leaders began with hands-on, lower-level jobs. Examples include the CEO of Walmart starting by loading trucks and the CEO of Planet Fitness beginning as a receptionist. "Unusual" Beginnings: Notable, high-profile examples include former Cinnabon CEO Kat Cole starting as a Hooters girl and others working as dance instructors or selling telephone equipment. Common Starting Roles: Beyond just service, LinkedIn analysis found that, for large corporations, top executives frequently start in roles like consultants or software engineers, which offer intense problem-solving experience. Why Early "Menial" Jobs Matter Skill Development: These roles teach essential skills such as teamwork, problem-solving, work ethic, and dealing with customers, which are crucial for later leadership. Empathy and Perspective: Starting from the bottom often allows future leaders to understand the daily realities of frontline employees, which can lead to better management practices. Resilience: Overcoming the challenges of a difficult, low-paying, or intense entry-level job builds mental toughness, which is required for top-tier leadership. While not all CEOs take this path—many come through specialized consulting, engineering, or family businesses—starting in a frontline job is a surprisingly common and highly effective training ground for executive leadership.

What moronic drivel, that ironically totally proves you wrong.

All those jobs describe a path doing entry level tasks WITHIN THEIR FIELD. How does painting a fence, shovelling snow, or loading bags relate to flying a plane?

It's an absolute joke that not only do these shitty ramp jobs exist for pilots, but pilots defend them.
Don't you realise if the start of the career wasn't absolute horse crap like it is now we wouldn't have some of the world's worst conditions at the top end of the career too?

I'm lucky that aviation was my second career, but if it wasn't I still wouldn't have degraded my profession by taking a shitty menial job completely unrelated to the career. It only takes one season of these dinosaurs being told to @#$! off and this nonsense ends for good.

Is loading bags on aircraft related. I worked as a baggage handler at an airport which included the loadsheets, marshalling, towing, groundpower, pushbacks, cargo, de-icing. It is very related.

I highly doubt that float operators hiring has any effect on the payscales at AC and WJ.

I suspect the fence painting thing is not the norm. It is likely loading the aircraft, cleaning aircraft, assisting with docking, etc which is related(although I never worked a dock job at a floatplane operation). At my first company, many started in cargo or dispatch. Funny thing was......the other divisions never contacted me when I was trying to get them to hire me into the company but the flight ops division did in the same year and I got my first turbine flying. The new chief pilot mumbled something about the cargo division doesn't decide which pilots he will hire.

However, the original poster now has opposing views on the subject. He can take the advice of others and expect a job in 5 or so years when the next upturn happens or try an alternative method.

One has to learn how to work the system as it is, not as it could be.

No it's not relevant. Just like a doctor wouldn't gain relevant skills pushing a bed around a hospital, or working as a hospital receptionist.

The point that you're missing is that the system is a joke, and is broken. If you can't see how starting with a foundation of shit has a knock on effect to the rest of the industry I guess you're beyond hope.
But maybe it's just coincidence that Canada is the only place that plays this BS and is one of the worst places at the top of the career too.

As for FedEx. Not even remotely similar for a global company to give some recognition to internal hires compared to some crappy operator wanting slave labour for a year or two to eventually fly a 182 or right seat on a crappy Navajo.

[pelmet]

Found it......Had to sling boxes for a minimum of a year(or other position).

Even the big boys do it.
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fede ... lying.html

Now waiting for the goal posts to suddenly change in this discussion.

Do you not see the title of the thread?

But ffs man do I have to spell this out for you?

Ramping is NOT A NORMAL pathway to a flying job in every other country!

FedEx never required pilots to ramp, the old difference is already qualified people (1500 hours) had preference if they were working there full time for a year!

Like I said, the goalposts would change.

The conversation changed from the original title.

You literally asked about Fedex and driving and I literally told you about Fedex and driving. 1500 hours was not a typical US carrier hiring amount back in the days of that thread. Slinging boxes or driving got you in ahead of others outside the company.

But I tell you what....despite our differences in a previous thread, I thought I would give a little advice to further your career. And i did.

It doesn't appear that you are anywhere close to taking it, so how about you hold out for a direct entry onto something at 250 hours and give us quarterly updates on how things are going.

It is obvious that you have a I Deserve attitude. Meanwhile, I literally had someone tell me within an hour of your post above that they were very grateful for a flying opportunity I gave them(they are well qualified and I am the one that is grateful but right attitude). Much different than what I see with you.

Other ramp-willing guys can take my advice and take your place in moving up.......and based on personality, I would suggest they are likely a better fit and are driving to YZF as you type(or are already there). Maybe just stick with your first career.

[lostav8r]

Found it......Had to sling boxes for a minimum of a year(or other position).

Even the big boys do it.
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fede ... lying.html

Now waiting for the goal posts to suddenly change in this discussion.

Do you not see the title of the thread?

But ffs man do I have to spell this out for you?

Ramping is NOT A NORMAL pathway to a flying job in every other country!

FedEx never required pilots to ramp, the old difference is already qualified people (1500 hours) had preference if they were working there full time for a year!

Like I said, the goalposts would change.

The conversation changed from the original title.

You literally asked about Fedex and driving and I literally told you about Fedex and driving. 1500 hours was not a typical US carrier hiring amount back in the days of that thread. Slinging boxes or driving got you in ahead of others outside the company.

When did the goalposts move? I stand by my original point of "FedEx never required pilots to ramp"

And I explained to you this is no different than if an Air Canada station attendant decided to get his CPL and work for Ornge on the side!

In no way is an internal hire the same way as forcing licensed pilots to work the ramp!

But to throw you an olive branch, I'm happy things worked out for you, and I appreciate you sharing your original point on why ramping may make sense in some cases.

I don't feel I "deserve" anything for this industry. As someone with people who depend on me I can't afford to take the 5+ year gamble on making it to a 705, otoh I'm fortunate enough I have an offer to make captain level money in another industry, but before I pack up flying forever I wanted to do my due diligence and explore all the options available!

[pelmet]

Do you not see the title of the thread?

But ffs man do I have to spell this out for you?

Ramping is NOT A NORMAL pathway to a flying job in every other country!

FedEx never required pilots to ramp, the old difference is already qualified people (1500 hours) had preference if they were working there full time for a year!

Like I said, the goalposts would change.

The conversation changed from the original title.

You literally asked about Fedex and driving and I literally told you about Fedex and driving. 1500 hours was not a typical US carrier hiring amount back in the days of that thread. Slinging boxes or driving got you in ahead of others outside the company.

When did the goalposts move? I stand by my original point of "FedEx never required pilots to ramp"

And I explained to you this is no different than if an Air Canada station attendant decided to get his CPL and work for Ornge on the side!

In no way is an internal hire the same way as forcing licensed pilots to work the ramp!

But to throw you an olive branch, I'm happy things worked out for you, and I appreciate you sharing your original point on why ramping may make sense in some cases.

I don't feel I "deserve" anything for this industry. As someone with people who depend on me I can't afford to take the 5+ year gamble on making it to a 705, otoh I'm fortunate enough I have an offer to make captain level money in another industry, but before I pack up flying forever I wanted to do my due diligence and explore all the options available!

I don't think the northern operators require all pilots to work the ramp either.

If an experienced captain is needed by Buffalo or a float operation, they will hire a direct entry. I know people who have done that.

Ramping is what lower time pilots do to get a foot in the door at a company that doesn't have an immediate requirement for them and in many cases will need some sort of guidance before being thrown out on the line.

It's up to you. PhilAviate has given you some advice as well. Once again, the industry is not going to change in time for your career progress, so decision time is here. Some get a lucky break without ramping(or being in the right place at the right time). Life is full of unknowns. I think the economy is on a downturn which makes it even more complicated as aviation usually gets hit early.

I recommend to people to not get into aviation as a career unless they truly love it. There are a lot of downsides.

[lostav8r]

Like I said, the goalposts would change.

The conversation changed from the original title.

You literally asked about Fedex and driving and I literally told you about Fedex and driving. 1500 hours was not a typical US carrier hiring amount back in the days of that thread. Slinging boxes or driving got you in ahead of others outside the company.

When did the goalposts move? I stand by my original point of "FedEx never required pilots to ramp"

And I explained to you this is no different than if an Air Canada station attendant decided to get his CPL and work for Ornge on the side!

In no way is an internal hire the same way as forcing licensed pilots to work the ramp!

But to throw you an olive branch, I'm happy things worked out for you, and I appreciate you sharing your original point on why ramping may make sense in some cases.

I don't feel I "deserve" anything for this industry. As someone with people who depend on me I can't afford to take the 5+ year gamble on making it to a 705, otoh I'm fortunate enough I have an offer to make captain level money in another industry, but before I pack up flying forever I wanted to do my due diligence and explore all the options available!

I don't think the northern operators require all pilots to work the ramp either.

If an experienced captain is needed by Buffalo or a float operation, they will hire a direct entry. I know people who have done that.

Ramping is what lower time pilots do to get a foot in the door at a company that doesn't have an immediate requirement for them and in many cases will need some sort of guidance before being thrown out on the line.

It's up to you. PhilAviate has given you some advice as well. Once again, the industry is not going to change in time for your career progress, so decision time is here. Some get a lucky break without ramping(or being in the right place at the right time). Life is full of unknowns. I think the economy is on a downturn which makes it even more complicated.

Many people are happy flying on the side with a career outside of aviation. I recommend to people to not get into aviation as a career unless they truly love it. There are a lot of downsides.

Your point is, if you have nothing to offer might as well get your foot into the door. It's not wrong but it just continues this cycle.

My point is, this is not a "normal" way of doing things anywhere else, and if people put their foot down it would stop!

I especially agree with your last point though

[pelmet]

When did the goalposts move? I stand by my original point of "FedEx never required pilots to ramp"

And I explained to you this is no different than if an Air Canada station attendant decided to get his CPL and work for Ornge on the side!

In no way is an internal hire the same way as forcing licensed pilots to work the ramp!

But to throw you an olive branch, I'm happy things worked out for you, and I appreciate you sharing your original point on why ramping may make sense in some cases.

I don't feel I "deserve" anything for this industry. As someone with people who depend on me I can't afford to take the 5+ year gamble on making it to a 705, otoh I'm fortunate enough I have an offer to make captain level money in another industry, but before I pack up flying forever I wanted to do my due diligence and explore all the options available!

I don't think the northern operators require all pilots to work the ramp either.

If an experienced captain is needed by Buffalo or a float operation, they will hire a direct entry. I know people who have done that.

Ramping is what lower time pilots do to get a foot in the door at a company that doesn't have an immediate requirement for them and in many cases will need some sort of guidance before being thrown out on the line.

It's up to you. PhilAviate has given you some advice as well. Once again, the industry is not going to change in time for your career progress, so decision time is here. Some get a lucky break without ramping(or being in the right place at the right time). Life is full of unknowns. I think the economy is on a downturn which makes it even more complicated.

Many people are happy flying on the side with a career outside of aviation. I recommend to people to not get into aviation as a career unless they truly love it. There are a lot of downsides.

Your point is, if you have nothing to offer might as well get your foot into the door. It's not wrong but it just continues this cycle.

My point is, this is not a "normal" way of doing things anywhere else, and if people put their foot down it would stop!

I especially agree with your last point though

Many people are happy flying on the side with a career outside of aviation. Some are less expensive than others. Gliding, towing gliders, dropping parachutists, rentals.

There is also instructing at some point. Part time but does get some pay.