How long is ramp to flying at sykcare?

[philaviate]

Sounds more like a humiliation ritual than anything. Only in Canada are pilots degraded and disrespected to such a low level.

Mr. AI search, notice how every single one of those jobs still started in a relevant position to the job that they’re ending up in.

A resident doctor still works on patients, an articling student still works in an office and with legal documents, a conductor still sits inside the train.

Residents don’t clean toilets or wash the CEOS car, conductors don’t work as Carmen, Articling students don’t repair the office they work in etc.

There is no traditional path to becoming CEO for every industry so I’ll leave that one out

What moronic drivel, that ironically totally proves you wrong.

All those jobs describe a path doing entry level tasks WITHIN THEIR FIELD. How does painting a fence, shovelling snow, or loading bags relate to flying a plane?

It's an absolute joke that not only do these shitty ramp jobs exist for pilots, but pilots defend them.
Don't you realise if the start of the career wasn't absolute horse crap like it is now we wouldn't have some of the world's worst conditions at the top end of the career too?

I'm lucky that aviation was my second career, but if it wasn't I still wouldn't have degraded my profession by taking a shitty menial job completely unrelated to the career. It only takes one season of these dinosaurs being told to @#$! off and this nonsense ends for good.

This abuse will never stop until boomer dinosaurs like Buffalo Joe and TeePeeCreeper on these forums have finally disappeared from this industry. In no other country, or industry, you are a slave painting fences for minimum wage.

Didn't know that slaves got paid money. Canada must have the happiest slaves with a $17.00/hour wage. Maybe Joe pays more.

We have an A340 captain on this forum that worked for Buffalo....we should find out what his experience was.

The fact you can't see the problem with someone who has spent tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on schooling to get a profession getting minimum wage which is designed for those with zero skills or education is what's wrong.
Do you really hate your fellow pilots that much that you want to perpetuate this nonsense?
It doesn't happen in other industries. It doesn't happen in other countries. It shouldn't happen here.
I personally want the next generation of pilots to be given the respect their qualifications and training earn, because it is good for all of us.

[BTD]

This abuse will never stop until boomer dinosaurs like Buffalo Joe and TeePeeCreeper on these forums have finally disappeared from this industry. In no other country, or industry, you are a slave painting fences for minimum wage.

Didn't know that slaves got paid money. Canada must have the happiest slaves with a $17.00/hour wage. Maybe Joe pays more.

We have an A340 captain on this forum that worked for Buffalo....we should find out what his experience was.

The fact you can't see the problem with someone who has spent tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on schooling to get a profession getting minimum wage which is designed for those with zero skills or education is what's wrong.
Do you really hate your fellow pilots that much that you want to perpetuate this nonsense?
It doesn't happen in other industries. It doesn't happen in other countries. It shouldn't happen here.
I personally want the next generation of pilots to be given the respect their qualifications and training earn, because it is good for all of us.

While I don’t agree that the road to becoming a professional pilot should include cleaning toilets, the cost one spends on education and training does not nor should it have any bearing on what you are paid. You get paid based on supply/demand and specific skill sets that training provides, regardless of the cost. Usually the cost of the education will relate to the number of people entering the field and form a proportional relationship. But in aviation, despite the cost of entry there is still a large supply of new entrants.

[philaviate]

Didn't know that slaves got paid money. Canada must have the happiest slaves with a $17.00/hour wage. Maybe Joe pays more.

We have an A340 captain on this forum that worked for Buffalo....we should find out what his experience was.

The fact you can't see the problem with someone who has spent tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on schooling to get a profession getting minimum wage which is designed for those with zero skills or education is what's wrong.
Do you really hate your fellow pilots that much that you want to perpetuate this nonsense?
It doesn't happen in other industries. It doesn't happen in other countries. It shouldn't happen here.
I personally want the next generation of pilots to be given the respect their qualifications and training earn, because it is good for all of us.

While I don’t agree that the road to becoming a professional pilot should include cleaning toilets, the cost one spends on education and training does not nor should it have any bearing on what you are paid. You get paid based on supply/demand and specific skill sets that training provides, regardless of the cost. Usually the cost of the education will relate to the number of people entering the field and form a proportional relationship. But in aviation, despite the cost of entry there is still a large supply of new entrants.

Well training and education naturally lead to higher paying jobs, and in this case earns you professional certification that is a requirement for entry to the field.

I have been to uni multiple times, including for professional level degrees, none of my stints there were any harder really than flight training and most were a lot cheaper. But the flight training is the only one that leads to some stupid notion of some menial, unrelated, job being necessary character building before one is worthy of actually starting their career.

[digits_]

While I don’t agree that the road to becoming a professional pilot should include cleaning toilets, the cost one spends on education and training does not nor should it have any bearing on what you are paid. You get paid based on supply/demand and specific skill sets that training provides, regardless of the cost. Usually the cost of the education will relate to the number of people entering the field and form a proportional relationship. But in aviation, despite the cost of entry there is still a large supply of new entrants.

It's still true that it's a bit of a unique situation in Canadian aviation where these type of extra tasks or ramp jobs are a normal part of the pilot journey. I can understand ample supply of applicants leading to low wages and crappy schedules etc, but the 'go work the ramp and dump lavs for 2 years first' type of expectations is a bit strange.

There are lots of applicants for high paying tech jobs, even entry level ones that don't require that much training or studying. No company there would ever tell an applicant "you know, we don't have a position for you right now, but the janitor needs some extra help on the night shift, it might be a good way to get your foot in the door". It just doesn't happen, nor would it be deemed acceptable. But nobody bats an eye if an aviation operator would suggest such a thing. It's a strange mentality.

[Daniel Cooper]

The problem is you are competing with people that will accept poor wages and quality of life. You can see the issue in this thread when pilots say they would work for free.

This is why Canadian airlines and other corporations want the country flooded with third world pilots and other labour. They'll work for less and accept a much lower quality of life.

[digits_]

The problem is you are competing with people that will accept poor wages and quality of life. You can see the issue in this thread when pilots say they would work for free.

This is why Canadian airlines and other corporations want the country flooded with third world pilots and other labour. They'll work for less and accept a much lower quality of life.

That's only part of the issue. Everywhere in the world new pilots would work for free to gain experience. Heck in Asia pay to fly programs are still around. That's even worse...

[Dry Guy]

I notice DEI policies don't allow for equality in economic backgrounds. If you aren't on your second career or don't have daddy's money you are being unfairly discriminated against.

[BTD]

The fact you can't see the problem with someone who has spent tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on schooling to get a profession getting minimum wage which is designed for those with zero skills or education is what's wrong.
Do you really hate your fellow pilots that much that you want to perpetuate this nonsense?
It doesn't happen in other industries. It doesn't happen in other countries. It shouldn't happen here.
I personally want the next generation of pilots to be given the respect their qualifications and training earn, because it is good for all of us.

While I don’t agree that the road to becoming a professional pilot should include cleaning toilets, the cost one spends on education and training does not nor should it have any bearing on what you are paid. You get paid based on supply/demand and specific skill sets that training provides, regardless of the cost. Usually the cost of the education will relate to the number of people entering the field and form a proportional relationship. But in aviation, despite the cost of entry there is still a large supply of new entrants.

Well training and education naturally lead to higher paying jobs, and in this case earns you professional certification that is a requirement for entry to the field.

I have been to uni multiple times, including for professional level degrees, none of my stints there were any harder really than flight training and most were a lot cheaper. But the flight training is the only one that leads to some stupid notion of some menial, unrelated, job being necessary character building before one is worthy of actually starting their career.

I agree.

I only counter that the cost of the education doesn’t, nor should impact the earnings in the job. The skills required and number of applicants will. But if it cost 5 million dollars to get a certificate for Office Administration it doesn’t then follow that office administrators should get a salary of millions of dollars per year simply because the cost of the program.

I think it is a bad argument that can be countered easily and there are better arguments for improving working conditions and compensation.

[BTD]

While I don’t agree that the road to becoming a professional pilot should include cleaning toilets, the cost one spends on education and training does not nor should it have any bearing on what you are paid. You get paid based on supply/demand and specific skill sets that training provides, regardless of the cost. Usually the cost of the education will relate to the number of people entering the field and form a proportional relationship. But in aviation, despite the cost of entry there is still a large supply of new entrants.

It's still true that it's a bit of a unique situation in Canadian aviation where these type of extra tasks or ramp jobs are a normal part of the pilot journey. I can understand ample supply of applicants leading to low wages and crappy schedules etc, but the 'go work the ramp and dump lavs for 2 years first' type of expectations is a bit strange.

There are lots of applicants for high paying tech jobs, even entry level ones that don't require that much training or studying. No company there would ever tell an applicant "you know, we don't have a position for you right now, but the janitor needs some extra help on the night shift, it might be a good way to get your foot in the door". It just doesn't happen, nor would it be deemed acceptable. But nobody bats an eye if an aviation operator would suggest such a thing. It's a strange mentality.

That is true but is fairly easily explainable, and I’m not saying it is good or right. But any profession where the desire/passion is so deep and fundamental can lend itself to people making decisions which may or may not be in their own best interest, but are clearly not in the best interest of the population.

It’s not directly analogous, but look at the pipeline to become a Navy Seal. Most of those guys have dreamt about being a commando since childhood or their teens. They want to jump out of aircraft, scuba dive to a target, or hit a building to rescue a hostage. But the first 6 months of Bud/s is carrying a boat on their head, rolling in wet sand, getting yelled at while laying in cold water all day and night more or less non stop, just to become a seal.

Now that example there is a more direct relationship between the value of that and the final job, but the point is people are willing to put up with a lot of BS that isn’t what they want to do, when it is on the path to what they do want to do.

[philaviate]

While I don’t agree that the road to becoming a professional pilot should include cleaning toilets, the cost one spends on education and training does not nor should it have any bearing on what you are paid. You get paid based on supply/demand and specific skill sets that training provides, regardless of the cost. Usually the cost of the education will relate to the number of people entering the field and form a proportional relationship. But in aviation, despite the cost of entry there is still a large supply of new entrants.

It's still true that it's a bit of a unique situation in Canadian aviation where these type of extra tasks or ramp jobs are a normal part of the pilot journey. I can understand ample supply of applicants leading to low wages and crappy schedules etc, but the 'go work the ramp and dump lavs for 2 years first' type of expectations is a bit strange.

There are lots of applicants for high paying tech jobs, even entry level ones that don't require that much training or studying. No company there would ever tell an applicant "you know, we don't have a position for you right now, but the janitor needs some extra help on the night shift, it might be a good way to get your foot in the door". It just doesn't happen, nor would it be deemed acceptable. But nobody bats an eye if an aviation operator would suggest such a thing. It's a strange mentality.

That is true but is fairly easily explainable, and I’m not saying it is good or right. But any profession where the desire/passion is so deep and fundamental can lend itself to people making decisions which may or may not be in their own best interest, but are clearly not in the best interest of the population.

It’s not directly analogous, but look at the pipeline to become a Navy Seal. Most of those guys have dreamt about being a commando since childhood or their teens. They want to jump out of aircraft, scuba dive to a target, or hit a building to rescue a hostage. But the first 6 months of Bud/s is carrying a boat on their head, rolling in wet sand, getting yelled at while laying in cold water all day and night more or less non stop, just to become a seal.

Now that example there is a more direct relationship between the value of that and the final job, but the point is people are willing to put up with a lot of BS that isn’t what they want to do, when it is on the path to what they do want to do.

I disagree with that analogy.
Toughing it out is what makes you a special forces soldier. That is what makes the person into the role.
Basic is similar to flight training. It is training.
After they finish the training and are badged they aren't sent to be a navy cook or blanket stacker for two years to build character.

[BTD]

It's still true that it's a bit of a unique situation in Canadian aviation where these type of extra tasks or ramp jobs are a normal part of the pilot journey. I can understand ample supply of applicants leading to low wages and crappy schedules etc, but the 'go work the ramp and dump lavs for 2 years first' type of expectations is a bit strange.

There are lots of applicants for high paying tech jobs, even entry level ones that don't require that much training or studying. No company there would ever tell an applicant "you know, we don't have a position for you right now, but the janitor needs some extra help on the night shift, it might be a good way to get your foot in the door". It just doesn't happen, nor would it be deemed acceptable. But nobody bats an eye if an aviation operator would suggest such a thing. It's a strange mentality.

That is true but is fairly easily explainable, and I’m not saying it is good or right. But any profession where the desire/passion is so deep and fundamental can lend itself to people making decisions which may or may not be in their own best interest, but are clearly not in the best interest of the population.

It’s not directly analogous, but look at the pipeline to become a Navy Seal. Most of those guys have dreamt about being a commando since childhood or their teens. They want to jump out of aircraft, scuba dive to a target, or hit a building to rescue a hostage. But the first 6 months of Bud/s is carrying a boat on their head, rolling in wet sand, getting yelled at while laying in cold water all day and night more or less non stop, just to become a seal.

Now that example there is a more direct relationship between the value of that and the final job, but the point is people are willing to put up with a lot of BS that isn’t what they want to do, when it is on the path to what they do want to do.

I disagree with that analogy.
Toughing it out is what makes you a special forces soldier. That is what makes the person into the role.
Basic is similar to flight training. It is training.
After they finish the training and are badged they are sent to be a navy cook or blanket stacker for two years to build character.

Which is why I said it isn’t directly analogous. My point was that on an individual basis people are willing to put up with a lot of BS, to get to where they want to go. Sometimes to the detriment of the community population (pilots) and sometimes to the benefit (seals). When there is a large supply of applicants who have that mentality, it isn’t surprising that businesses will take advantage.

[cdnavater]

It's still true that it's a bit of a unique situation in Canadian aviation where these type of extra tasks or ramp jobs are a normal part of the pilot journey. I can understand ample supply of applicants leading to low wages and crappy schedules etc, but the 'go work the ramp and dump lavs for 2 years first' type of expectations is a bit strange.

There are lots of applicants for high paying tech jobs, even entry level ones that don't require that much training or studying. No company there would ever tell an applicant "you know, we don't have a position for you right now, but the janitor needs some extra help on the night shift, it might be a good way to get your foot in the door". It just doesn't happen, nor would it be deemed acceptable. But nobody bats an eye if an aviation operator would suggest such a thing. It's a strange mentality.

That is true but is fairly easily explainable, and I’m not saying it is good or right. But any profession where the desire/passion is so deep and fundamental can lend itself to people making decisions which may or may not be in their own best interest, but are clearly not in the best interest of the population.

It’s not directly analogous, but look at the pipeline to become a Navy Seal. Most of those guys have dreamt about being a commando since childhood or their teens. They want to jump out of aircraft, scuba dive to a target, or hit a building to rescue a hostage. But the first 6 months of Bud/s is carrying a boat on their head, rolling in wet sand, getting yelled at while laying in cold water all day and night more or less non stop, just to become a seal.

Now that example there is a more direct relationship between the value of that and the final job, but the point is people are willing to put up with a lot of BS that isn’t what they want to do, when it is on the path to what they do want to do.

I disagree with that analogy.
Toughing it out is what makes you a special forces soldier. That is what makes the person into the role.
Basic is similar to flight training. It is training.
After they finish the training and are badged they are sent to be a navy cook or blanket stacker for two years to build character.

While I can appreciate your crusade on the issue, fact is and this is regardless of the amount of work visas, pilots will mostly crawl through broken glass and step on their own grandmother to get a flying job. I can tell you many, many stories about this, having a C.P tell me to break the law because there were 10 other pilots waiting for the chance to do it.
While I was a C.P, had a pilot who was a trust fund baby, tell me he would work for free!
The countless pilots who accept a lower wage to do the same job, causing other companies to lower their wages to “compete” for the work, the pilots who complain about the pay they accepted and blame the pilots ahead of them for their woes.
The industry is full of it, working the ramp is only one issue and not going away because you think it’s wrong! The reality is and it has been proven over time, if you convince one pilot to do it your way, there are in fact at least 10 others who will do it the other way.
Of course, operators will take advantage of this, the industry is always cyclical and those companies are usually the first to suffer when times are good(for pilots) and the first to capitalize when times are bad(for pilots), I take solace in knowing that the abusive company’s were suffering and some of the worst went out of business while we were having what most would describe as the longest boom in aviation history!

[philaviate]

That is true but is fairly easily explainable, and I’m not saying it is good or right. But any profession where the desire/passion is so deep and fundamental can lend itself to people making decisions which may or may not be in their own best interest, but are clearly not in the best interest of the population.

It’s not directly analogous, but look at the pipeline to become a Navy Seal. Most of those guys have dreamt about being a commando since childhood or their teens. They want to jump out of aircraft, scuba dive to a target, or hit a building to rescue a hostage. But the first 6 months of Bud/s is carrying a boat on their head, rolling in wet sand, getting yelled at while laying in cold water all day and night more or less non stop, just to become a seal.

Now that example there is a more direct relationship between the value of that and the final job, but the point is people are willing to put up with a lot of BS that isn’t what they want to do, when it is on the path to what they do want to do.

I disagree with that analogy.
Toughing it out is what makes you a special forces soldier. That is what makes the person into the role.
Basic is similar to flight training. It is training.
After they finish the training and are badged they are sent to be a navy cook or blanket stacker for two years to build character.

Which is why I said it isn’t directly analogous. My point was that on an individual basis people are willing to put up with a lot of BS, to get to where they want to go. Sometimes to the detriment of the community population (pilots) and sometimes to the benefit (seals). When there is a large supply of applicants who have that mentality, it isn’t surprising that businesses will take advantage.

So in essence Canadians are a special kind of stupid as aviation in Canada is the only aviation group worldwide that put up with this nonsense.

But it's hardly surprising. I honestly think Canada is one of the most brainwashed societies on earth. Look at how their rabid little minds switch to whatever current think is flavour of the propaganda this week.

[philaviate]

That is true but is fairly easily explainable, and I’m not saying it is good or right. But any profession where the desire/passion is so deep and fundamental can lend itself to people making decisions which may or may not be in their own best interest, but are clearly not in the best interest of the population.

It’s not directly analogous, but look at the pipeline to become a Navy Seal. Most of those guys have dreamt about being a commando since childhood or their teens. They want to jump out of aircraft, scuba dive to a target, or hit a building to rescue a hostage. But the first 6 months of Bud/s is carrying a boat on their head, rolling in wet sand, getting yelled at while laying in cold water all day and night more or less non stop, just to become a seal.

Now that example there is a more direct relationship between the value of that and the final job, but the point is people are willing to put up with a lot of BS that isn’t what they want to do, when it is on the path to what they do want to do.

I disagree with that analogy.
Toughing it out is what makes you a special forces soldier. That is what makes the person into the role.
Basic is similar to flight training. It is training.
After they finish the training and are badged they are sent to be a navy cook or blanket stacker for two years to build character.

While I can appreciate your crusade on the issue, fact is and this is regardless of the amount of work visas, pilots will mostly crawl through broken glass and step on their own grandmother to get a flying job. I can tell you many, many stories about this, having a C.P tell me to break the law because there were 10 other pilots waiting for the chance to do it.
While I was a C.P, had a pilot who was a trust fund baby, tell me he would work for free!
The countless pilots who accept a lower wage to do the same job, causing other companies to lower their wages to “compete” for the work, the pilots who complain about the pay they accepted and blame the pilots ahead of them for their woes.
The industry is full of it, working the ramp is only one issue and not going away because you think it’s wrong! The reality is and it has been proven over time, if you convince one pilot to do it your way, there are in fact at least 10 others who will do it the other way.
Of course, operators will take advantage of this, the industry is always cyclical and those companies are usually the first to suffer when times are good(for pilots) and the first to capitalize when times are bad(for pilots), I take solace in knowing that the abusive company’s were suffering and some of the worst went out of business while we were having what most would describe as the longest boom in aviation history!

The solution to this is for those of us not at the bottom to point and laugh and ridicule operators who try this and publicly call them out.
Just like the fools wearing masks to this day.

Plus deporting a few million unnecessary imports wouldn't hurt either.

[BTD]

I disagree with that analogy.
Toughing it out is what makes you a special forces soldier. That is what makes the person into the role.
Basic is similar to flight training. It is training.
After they finish the training and are badged they are sent to be a navy cook or blanket stacker for two years to build character.

Which is why I said it isn’t directly analogous. My point was that on an individual basis people are willing to put up with a lot of BS, to get to where they want to go. Sometimes to the detriment of the community population (pilots) and sometimes to the benefit (seals). When there is a large supply of applicants who have that mentality, it isn’t surprising that businesses will take advantage.

So in essence Canadians are a special kind of stupid as aviation in Canada is the only aviation group worldwide that put up with this nonsense.

But it's hardly surprising. I honestly think Canada is one of the most brainwashed societies on earth. Look at how their rabid little minds switch to whatever current think is flavour of the propaganda this week.

I’ve stated my point. Your above statement about my argument is a straw man. I’m making a very narrow case of why it is the way it is. I am not taking a position on its ethics.