Flair Pilots Better Starting & Top End Pay Now?!

[ZackMorris]

Just a reminder that in the year 2026, a brand-new FO at a Canadian ULCC can look at a legacy carrier pay table and say:

"Wait... I make MORE than that guy?"

Somewhere, a freshly minted Flair pilot is explaining to an Air Canada pilot how pay progression works.

What a time to be alive.

Serious question for the aviation historians:

Did Frontier or Allegiant ever pay more than Delta?
Did Sun Country ever pay more than American?

Because seeing a ULCC outpay the country's flag carrier at the bottom of the pay scale feels like discovering the gift shop sells the Mona Lisa.

Going in with the same negots team that got less starting pay than Flair is a bold strategy, Cotton.

Looking forward to the inevitable Spin Zone on this one.

On top of Air Transat's long call reserve, proper monthly guarantee, reserve cap, Open Time paid at 1.5x and voluntary flying paid at 2.0x.

[Tbayer2021]

Just a reminder that in the year 2026, a brand-new FO at a Canadian ULCC can look at a legacy carrier pay table and say:

"Wait... I make MORE than that guy?"

Somewhere, a freshly minted Flair pilot is explaining to an Air Canada pilot how pay progression works.

What a time to be alive.

Serious question for the aviation historians:

Did Frontier or Allegiant ever pay more than Delta?
Did Sun Country ever pay more than American?

Because seeing a ULCC outpay the country's flag carrier at the bottom of the pay scale feels like discovering the gift shop sells the Mona Lisa.

Going in with the same negots team that got less starting pay than Flair is a bold strategy, Cotton.

Looking forward to the inevitable Spin Zone on this one.

On top of Air Transat's long call reserve, proper monthly guarantee, reserve cap, Open Time paid at 1.5x and voluntary flying paid at 2.0x.

Are you going to post the scales? Maybe the TA?

[flyinhigh]

Just a reminder that in the year 2026, a brand-new FO at a Canadian ULCC can look at a legacy carrier pay table and say:

"Wait... I make MORE than that guy?"

Somewhere, a freshly minted Flair pilot is explaining to an Air Canada pilot how pay progression works.

What a time to be alive.

Serious question for the aviation historians:

Did Frontier or Allegiant ever pay more than Delta?
Did Sun Country ever pay more than American?

Because seeing a ULCC outpay the country's flag carrier at the bottom of the pay scale feels like discovering the gift shop sells the Mona Lisa.

Going in with the same negots team that got less starting pay than Flair is a bold strategy, Cotton.

Looking forward to the inevitable Spin Zone on this one.

On top of Air Transat's long call reserve, proper monthly guarantee, reserve cap, Open Time paid at 1.5x and voluntary flying paid at 2.0x.

Don't like what AC got TWO years ago. Stop complaining and volunteer.
It's pretty rich that you are complaining that a company who JUST got a TA, two years AFTER AC got there's. How is anyone supposed to go into bargaining with that. Sorry folks, in 10 years Summit Air will pay more than this, so we need to ensure that doesn't happen.

It's called pattern bargaining, and it is what this industry has needed for far to long. Next is Cargojet, than Porter, than WJ, than AC. All should see improvements based on what the formers got.

Again, don't like it than stop complaining and volunteer.

[CGFCK]

I've heard the stories on how the MEC treated volunteers.

Nah...Im good.

But we should still hold them to account.

As the post said...how many times did Allegiant/Spirit/Sun Country get paid more than United.

The answer is never. What a joke that TA was.

[FelixGustof]

Ultra Low Cost Carriers making more...LMAO

Who is negotiating for you guys

[flying4dollars]

I am happy for the Flair guys! As they should get a raise. In fact I wish they got more! I truly don't mind that a newly minted Flair FO gets paid more now because it just raises the bar for all, even though it should have been us 2 years ago. AC negots start in Sept with a CA expiration of Sept 2027 so I'm sure there will be gains there and hopefully puts us at the top. This is pattern bargaining. We all win.

[737Drver]

Just a reminder that in the year 2026, a brand-new FO at a Canadian ULCC can look at a legacy carrier pay table and say:

"Wait... I make MORE than that guy?"

Somewhere, a freshly minted Flair pilot is explaining to an Air Canada pilot how pay progression works.

What a time to be alive.

Serious question for the aviation historians:

Did Frontier or Allegiant ever pay more than Delta?
Did Sun Country ever pay more than American?

Because seeing a ULCC outpay the country's flag carrier at the bottom of the pay scale feels like discovering the gift shop sells the Mona Lisa.

Going in with the same negots team that got less starting pay than Flair is a bold strategy, Cotton.

Looking forward to the inevitable Spin Zone on this one.

On top of Air Transat's long call reserve, proper monthly guarantee, reserve cap, Open Time paid at 1.5x and voluntary flying paid at 2.0x.

Are you going to post the scales? Maybe the TA?

They beat AC on new hire pay: $113 vs $94

Beat top end 737 as well: $338 vs $337

Hopefully we at WJ can get this even higher.

[GeoffPilot]

I am happy for the Flair guys! As they should get a raise. In fact I wish they got more! I truly don't mind that a newly minted Flair FO gets paid more now because it just raises the bar for all, even though it should have been us 2 years ago. AC negots start in Sept with a CA expiration of Sept 2027 so I'm sure there will be gains there and hopefully puts us at the top. This is pattern bargaining. We all win.

Definitely good for everyone.

Question is...are AC Pilots pulling their weight as the largest pilot group? And being a legacy carrier?

Or do they need to rely on broke ass carriers to do the heavy lifting?

[redbusdriver]

I am happy for the Flair guys! As they should get a raise. In fact I wish they got more! I truly don't mind that a newly minted Flair FO gets paid more now because it just raises the bar for all, even though it should have been us 2 years ago. AC negots start in Sept with a CA expiration of Sept 2027 so I'm sure there will be gains there and hopefully puts us at the top. This is pattern bargaining. We all win.

We should be concerned that a ULCC is setting the bar, not the flag carrier AC. As mentioned above, when has Spirit ever out paid Delta?

[CodJockey]

I am happy for the Flair guys! As they should get a raise. In fact I wish they got more! I truly don't mind that a newly minted Flair FO gets paid more now because it just raises the bar for all, even though it should have been us 2 years ago. AC negots start in Sept with a CA expiration of Sept 2027 so I'm sure there will be gains there and hopefully puts us at the top. This is pattern bargaining. We all win.

We should be concerned that a ULCC is setting the bar, not the flag carrier AC. As mentioned above, when has Spirit ever out paid Delta?

Never...Best is watching the yes voting MEC Reps whore out themselves on OT with ALPA days. My YUL Rep is killing it this month. He was a big yes man to the TA.

Such a good deal he needs to do OT on top of ALPA paid money.

[flying4dollars]

Definitely good for everyone.

Question is...are AC Pilots pulling their weight as the largest pilot group? And being a legacy carrier?

Or do they need to rely on broke ass carriers to do the heavy lifting?

We should be concerned that a ULCC is setting the bar, not the flag carrier AC. As mentioned above, when has Spirit ever out paid Delta?

I agree with both of you. We should have done it 2 years ago at AC. We didn't quite get there. Lets wait and see what happens over the next year, but I'm happy to see the bar get raised, no matter who it is. It's still good for us as a whole.

[altiplano]

Montreal has always been a problem. Old ACPA reps were all company moles, sounds like new ones aren't much better. They are always susceptible to company leverage... "vote yes or we're buying Transat" "don't complain or we're moving the WB positions to YYZ" etc. - Winnipeg can be questionable too, no doubt RW was absolute garbage, although I think at least one of the guys in there now is pretty solid. That's really the problem last time around, YUL & YWG were 100% yes votes from status reps, and YWG, a base of 50 people had 3 of the 10 votes.

Anyway, Southwest is an LCC and they at many points have been the top paid above legacy rates. I recall Frontier or Spirit or someone, maybe all of them, were doing better than the legacy rates before the big 2016 gains started ending the legacy bankruptcy era contracts.

Anyway, glad to hear Flair got a good or better deal, we need to keep pushing everyone up, not tearing down unity, we're a year away.

[350driver]

Good for the flair guys. WJ will raise the bar even more. AC will have no choice but to follow.

Pattern bargaining has begun, and AC has no choice but to play the game

[Arnie Pye]

Don't forget that pay is only a small part of the total compensation package. One day all you young guys will want to retire and you certainly won't be doing it on Flair's Pension.

It's far better in this round but still probably one of the lowest matching plans out there. It still starts at a 100% match on 3% of your BASE PAY ONLY. No one has seen the actual wording yet but it has always only matched your MMG pay. No pension matching on block growth, open time, double time etc.

If you consider the fact that Air Canada contributes 10% into your pension with zero dollars out of your pocket, that gap decreases. Also, who pays for medical/dental? STD, LTD? There's another bit of cash to close the gap.

It's never just about the hourly rate. Wait until the actual contract language comes out to pat the Flair pilots on the back.

[Jean-Pierre]

Does anyone know how much a typical annual pension amount under the DB plan would be?

[altiplano]

Does anyone know how much a typical annual pension amount under the DB plan would be?

Depends on when you retire and years of service, also what rate you select for the survivor benefit.

The MPU limit is around $6K per YOS. Assuming you had best 5 years and 25 YOS you'd be $150K ballpark to retire this year, 35 YOS $210K ballpark.

The MPU limit goes up via negotiated increases which lagged in the last contract, although some base level of indexing was introduced based on plan funding levels.

[Protonpilot]

They beat AC on new hire pay: $113 vs $94

Beat top end 737 as well: $338 vs $337

Hopefully we at WJ can get this even higher.

Flair has done well for themselves, especially when you consider this is only their second CA since joining ALPA.

Please quote carefully, your new hire numbers should be using the proper year. $113 is the Flair new hire pay in 2028, $94 is the AC rate in September, 2026. That's a two year difference.

Flair new hire pay is still quite a bit above AC, currently $103 Flair vs $91 AC, that's 13%. Interestingly, Flair only raised new hire pay (FO steps 1-3) by 1%/4%/4% while the rest of the scale got 8%/4%/4% over the life of the contract.

Here's hoping that all ALPA properties stepping up to the plate in the coming year succeed in raising that bar.

As for the B737, year 12 Captain rate, same issue. The new Flair rate in 2026 is $313, AC rate in September, 2026 will be $337.

[Hangry]

Montreal has always been a problem. Old ACPA reps were all company moles, sounds like new ones aren't much better. They are always susceptible to company leverage... "vote yes or we're buying Transat" "don't complain or we're moving the WB positions to YYZ" etc. - Winnipeg can be questionable too, no doubt RW was absolute garbage, although I think at least one of the guys in there now is pretty solid. That's really the problem last time around, YUL & YWG were 100% yes votes from status reps, and YWG, a base of 50 people had 3 of the 10 votes.

A total disaster. Zero accountability.

[noreasterYHZ]

Don't forget that pay is only a small part of the total compensation package. One day all you young guys will want to retire and you certainly won't be doing it on Flair's Pension.

It's far better in this round but still probably one of the lowest matching plans out there. It still starts at a 100% match on 3% of your BASE PAY ONLY. No one has seen the actual wording yet but it has always only matched your MMG pay. No pension matching on block growth, open time, double time etc.

If you consider the fact that Air Canada contributes 10% into your pension with zero dollars out of your pocket, that gap decreases. Also, who pays for medical/dental? STD, LTD? There's another bit of cash to close the gap.

It's never just about the hourly rate. Wait until the actual contract language comes out to pat the Flair pilots on the back.

You do realize Flair is a ULCC right?

Like the fact we are even talking about them as a comparable to AC is embarrassing.

[Avcanada123]

They beat AC on new hire pay: $113 vs $94

Beat top end 737 as well: $338 vs $337

Hopefully we at WJ can get this even higher.

Flair has done well for themselves, especially when you consider this is only their second CA since joining ALPA.

Please quote carefully, your new hire numbers should be using the proper year. $113 is the Flair new hire pay in 2028, $94 is the AC rate in September, 2026. That's a two year difference.

Flair new hire pay is still quite a bit above AC, currently $103 Flair vs $91 AC, that's 13%. Interestingly, Flair only raised new hire pay (FO steps 1-3) by 1%/4%/4% while the rest of the scale got 8%/4%/4% over the life of the contract.

Here's hoping that all ALPA properties stepping up to the plate in the coming year succeed in raising that bar.

As for the B737, year 12 Captain rate, same issue. The new Flair rate in 2026 is $313, AC rate in September, 2026 will be $337.

Thank you. At the very least one should give 2% raises in 2027 and 2028 if they wanted to compare AC to Flair's 2028 wages but even that isn't too realistic. This is exactly what we want, the closer Flair wages get to Mainline the easier it is to get a better raise at Mainline which forces Flair to increase and the cycle continues

[rudder]

The reason that AC starting pay has ALWAYS been sub-standard is that it has never been a priority at the bargaining table vs other CBA objectives. There are decades of archived threads that demonstrate this fact and explain the rationale. It has been a choice when the reality is you cannot achieve all desired improvements in bargaining. AC pilots would have the highest starting pay in Canada if it was a priority. It is not. Therefore, improvements resulting in the highest starting pay only come if it does not come at the cost of forfeiting other enhancements to the CBA.

Having said that, there is nothing to brag about if your top NB CA pay rate is $1 above a ULCC.

[altiplano]

The reason that AC starting pay has ALWAYS been sub-standard is that it has never been a priority at the bargaining table vs other CBA objectives. There are decades of archived threads that demonstrate this fact and explain the rationale. It has been a choice when the reality is you cannot achieve all desired improvements in bargaining. AC pilots would have the highest starting pay in Canada if it was a priority. It is not. Therefore, improvements resulting in the highest starting pay only come if it does not come at the cost of forfeiting other enhancements to the CBA.

Having said that, there is nothing to brag about if your top NB CA pay rate is $1 above a ULCC.

It was just noted that AC 737 pay is actually almost 8% higher this year than Flair 737 pay. 2027/28 rate increases still to go and if anyone believes it will be 2% they are crazy. Don't forget you also have overseas pay, pension, esop, company paid benefits/disability/life insurance... Not "bragging" and it needs to be more, but let's be accurate on packages.

For 25 years under ACPA the next generations were sold out, whether it was position group, 4 year flat pay, LCC b-scale, FO pay cuts, and of course always grandfathered for the boomers...

The 1st ALPA contract, while wholly short on many articles, was the first time to start to reverse that trend of eating the young with 4 year fixed rate halved to 2 year, larger proportional rate increases in year 1/2 than the rest of the scale, and PCP FO rates recovered closer to industry standard. Plus the 4 year blanket type freeze was ended and it's basically the same as everyone else, you can move up to higher pay. It's never going to be "enough" for everyone, and it didn't come all at once, but it cleared up a lot of the darkness many of us went through.

Moving into 2027 negots I expect further increase in PCP for year 3/4 FO and possibly cut that 2 year fixed rate to 1 year probation pay. Then we can all just push together to push the top pay and lifestyle.

Keep pushing everyone up rather than shitting on each other is the way forward.

[rudder]

The reason that AC starting pay has ALWAYS been sub-standard is that it has never been a priority at the bargaining table vs other CBA objectives. There are decades of archived threads that demonstrate this fact and explain the rationale. It has been a choice when the reality is you cannot achieve all desired improvements in bargaining. AC pilots would have the highest starting pay in Canada if it was a priority. It is not. Therefore, improvements resulting in the highest starting pay only come if it does not come at the cost of forfeiting other enhancements to the CBA.

Having said that, there is nothing to brag about if your top NB CA pay rate is $1 above a ULCC.

It was just noted that AC 737 pay is actually almost 8% higher this year than Flair 737 pay. 2027/28 rate increases still to go and if anyone believes it will be 2% they are crazy. Don't forget you also have overseas pay, pension, esop, company paid benefits/disability/life insurance... Not "bragging" and it needs to be more, but let's be accurate on packages.

For 25 years under ACPA the next generations were sold out, whether it was position group, 4 year flat pay, LCC b-scale, FO pay cuts, and of course always grandfathered for the boomers...

The 1st ALPA contract, while wholly short on many articles, was the first time to start to reverse that trend of eating the young with 4 year fixed rate halved to 2 year, larger proportional rate increases in year 1/2 than the rest of the scale, and PCP FO rates recovered closer to industry standard. Plus the 4 year blanket type freeze was ended and it's basically the same as everyone else, you can move up to higher pay. It's never going to be "enough" for everyone, and it didn't come all at once, but it cleared up a lot of the darkness many of us went through.

Moving into 2027 negots I expect further increase in PCP for year 3/4 FO and possibly cut that 2 year fixed rate to 1 year probation pay. Then we can all just push together to push the top pay and lifestyle.

Keep pushing everyone up rather than shitting on each other is the way forward.

It has always been interesting to see how the victims of the previous pay schemes would cast a vote on the same issue once it is in their own rear view mirror.

So it will be interesting to see how they vote in 2028. The industry hopes that first year pay at AC will be six figures. $100k in 2026 is the same as $46k in 1990 and $56k in 2000 (according to the Bank of Canada inflation calculator).

[altiplano]

Maybe news to you, but starting flat pay at AC was about $40K/year 15 or so years ago. About $39K year one and $43K year two ring a bell, or thereabouts.

Then in year three you made about $65 an hour in the position group until you could get on the bus for about $85 an hour, that topped out around $120...

2026 scale for new hires is $95 an hour. Year two is $103. Pretty easy to translate that into $100K for some. Year 3/4 FO scales need the most improvement depending on type IMO, but all of it is a far cry better from old 2 year flat pay or 4 year fixed rate when you plug it in your BOC calculator.

[SNAAP]

Maybe news to you, but starting flat pay at AC was about $40K/year 15 or so years ago. About $39K year one and $43K year two ring a bell, or thereabouts.

Then in year three you made about $65 an hour in the position group until you could get on the bus for about $85 an hour, that topped out around $120...

2026 scale for new hires is $95 an hour. Year two is $103. Pretty easy to translate that into $100K for some. Year 3/4 FO scales need the most improvement depending on type IMO, but all of it is a far cry better from old 2 year flat pay or 4 year fixed rate when you plug it in your BOC calculator.

No one gives a shit about the glory days on the "9" or being an Oiler on a DC10. Time to move on.

I don't see Delta/United/American pilots trying to Make Aviation Great Again.

The industry has completely changed and junior pilot pay is pathetic. No excuses. We are 50% off what the Americans make. Percent of Captain is comical for a Legacy airline. The Junior pilots think this is a joke! We are pissed.

A ULCC has better starting pay!! Who thinks this is OK?