Cargojet ALPA TA

[User_1738]

Check this out

[propfeather]

Still pretty sub-par, but looks to be a pretty good improvement. Moving in the right direction at least!

[co-joe]

I like it. Nothing shows how badly you had fallen behind like a 26% catch up bump on line 1 to start things out. The big gap between 1st and 2nd year pay is also an interesting way to sort things out that doesn't bother me at all. Good to see a solid step in the right direction for you.

[MD11]

Sub 200K Captain pay year 1 still embarrassing. F/O pay is just pure disrespect, especially the first 4 years. Feels like an ex. ACPA flat pay negotiation tactic. Underwhelming contract with no incentive of getting well ahead of the airlines. Only some matching or staying just below existing 705’s.

[goldeneagle]

I like it. Nothing shows how badly you had fallen behind like a 26% catch up bump on line 1 to start things out.

It's a typical ALPA deal. The relatively new folks, year 1 and 2 FO get around 4%, while the top of the scale gets 30%. Just another example of how airline pilot unions eat the young every time around.

The pay bump for that top captain is 87K, which is more than the entire salary for the year 2 FO

[Me262]

I like it. Nothing shows how badly you had fallen behind like a 26% catch up bump on line 1 to start things out.

It's a typical ALPA deal. The relatively new folks, year 1 and 2 FO get around 4%, while the top of the scale gets 30%. Just another example of how airline pilot unions eat the young every time around.

The pay bump for that top captain is 87K, which is more than the entire salary for the year 2 FO

It makes sense. Most if not all ALPA dealing with negots are old dinosaurs that make sure they get the biggest part of the pie and leave the scraps for new pilots. "I paid my dues. You have it so good now, back in my time..."

[Bede]

It makes sense. Most if not all ALPA dealing with negots are old dinosaurs that make sure they get the biggest part of the pie and leave the scraps for new pilots. "I paid my dues. You have it so good now, back in my time..."

Nonsense. The WJA NC consists of one relatively junior captain and four FO's. It's always been like that. It's difficult to find senior pilots to volunteer because you can earn much more money flying the line with a bit of OT.

Also, a pay raise for senior pilots is a pay raise for all pilots- some just need to wait a bit longer to get it. A pay raise for a junior pilot is a one-time raise for a much smaller demographic.

[goldeneagle]

Also, a pay raise for senior pilots is a pay raise for all pilots- some just need to wait a bit longer to get it. A pay raise for a junior pilot is a one-time raise for a much smaller demographic.

if it was 4% across the board, I can understand your justification. But this is different. 4% for the year 2 person, 30% for the rest.

You may as well look the youngster in the face and say 'your kids dont need new shoes, they can wait a few years because that top guy making a quarter mil really needs the new boat badly'.

[daedalusx]

So top scale CA is now 318.405 meanwhile top scale fo is 178.245 a 55% ratio ?!

And people here think this is reasonable and fair ?!

Mind you, Delta ratio of Capt to FO pay is 68% ... which would bring up the FO pay to 216.51$

That's almost 40K out of pocket of FOs ...

[daedalusx]

Also, a pay raise for senior pilots is a pay raise for all pilots- some just need to wait a bit longer to get it. A pay raise for a junior pilot is a one-time raise for a much smaller demographic.

if it was 4% across the board, I can understand your justification. But this is different. 4% for the year 2 person, 30% for the rest.

You may as well look the youngster in the face and say 'your kids dont need new shoes, they can wait a few years because that top guy making a quarter mil really needs the new boat badly'.

There no arguing with boomers.

[goldeneagle]

There no arguing with boomers.

I think you are confused about the generations. The vast majority of the boomers are retired out of the system at this point. Your gripe is actually with those from the GenX and Millenial crowd, they are the ones in charge of such things today.

[Bede]

If it was 4% across the board, I can understand your justification. But this is different. 4% for the year 2 person, 30% for the rest.

You may as well look the youngster in the face and say 'your kids dont need new shoes, they can wait a few years because that top guy making a quarter mil really needs the new boat badly'.

I think you're misinterpreting my comments. FO pay needs to go up at all properties, especially mine (WJ). It needs to go up proportionally higher than captain pay. I'm just providing some perspective for why a pilot group as a whole may want to consider the other argument.

There no arguing with boomers.

You've got my age wrong. I'm Gen X. Had I been born 1 week later I'd be a millennial.
And I'm not arguing- just providing a different perspective. FO pay does need to go up, but the more you insult your colleagues who have been at this a bit longer than you, the more likely you'll have your legitimate pay concerns fall on deaf ears.

[Dronepiper]

The argument "oh you will spend more time in the left seat" is soo unbelievably frustrating. Anyone who knows anything about investing knows that money today is worth way more than money down the road (Especially if it takes 10-12 years just to upgrade to hold short call in the most junior base WJ operates).

[digits_]

The argument "oh you will spend more time in the left seat" is soo unbelievably frustrating. Anyone who knows anything about investing knows that money today is worth way more than money down the road (Especially if it takes 10-12 years just to upgrade to hold short call in the most junior base WJ operates).

Yup. Not to mention that it would likely only take a 1 dollar decrease on the top scale to give the first few years a 5 or 10 dollar increase, depending on the company's demographics. It would take an almost insignifcant reduction on the top scale to vastly improve quality of life for the new/junior guys. If you compare the after tax income it would be even more extreme.

It's not necessarily a union thing though, I'm surprised the company doesn't fight that more. They should want higher pay for new hires, that's what gets them in the door.

[Bede]

The argument "oh you will spend more time in the left seat" is soo unbelievably frustrating. Anyone who knows anything about investing knows that money today is worth way more than money down the road (Especially if it takes 10-12 years just to upgrade to hold short call in the most junior base WJ operates).

Agreed. But what should the discount rate be to make the delayed increase worthwhile?

[cdnavater]

The argument "oh you will spend more time in the left seat" is soo unbelievably frustrating. Anyone who knows anything about investing knows that money today is worth way more than money down the road (Especially if it takes 10-12 years just to upgrade to hold short call in the most junior base WJ operates).

Yup. Not to mention that it would likely only take a 1 dollar decrease on the top scale to give the first few years a 5 or 10 dollar increase, depending on the company's demographics. It would take an almost insignifcant reduction on the top scale to vastly improve quality of life for the new/junior guys. If you compare the after tax income it would be even more extreme.

It's not necessarily a union thing though, I'm surprised the company doesn't fight that more. They should want higher pay for new hires, that's what gets them in the door.

So, here is the conundrum, the ones now at the top scale have been under the same system where there is a delay in the pay progression favouring the later years. We are here now and waited patiently for the payoff and the suggestion that we should share the wealth is equally selfish but no junior pilot would admit it!
I have heard the same argument for why I should give up my holidays, I missed many major events and Christmas holidays but now that I can hold them, I shouldn’t so some junior can spend Christmas his kids, what about my grandkids!
@#$! that!
Signed selfish Gen X

[digits_]

The argument "oh you will spend more time in the left seat" is soo unbelievably frustrating. Anyone who knows anything about investing knows that money today is worth way more than money down the road (Especially if it takes 10-12 years just to upgrade to hold short call in the most junior base WJ operates).

Yup. Not to mention that it would likely only take a 1 dollar decrease on the top scale to give the first few years a 5 or 10 dollar increase, depending on the company's demographics. It would take an almost insignifcant reduction on the top scale to vastly improve quality of life for the new/junior guys. If you compare the after tax income it would be even more extreme.

It's not necessarily a union thing though, I'm surprised the company doesn't fight that more. They should want higher pay for new hires, that's what gets them in the door.

So, here is the conundrum, the ones now at the top scale have been under the same system where there is a delay in the pay progression favouring the later years. We are here now and waited patiently for the payoff and the suggestion that we should share the wealth is equally selfish but no junior pilot would admit it!
I have heard the same argument for why I should give up my holidays, I missed many major events and Christmas holidays but now that I can hold them, I shouldn’t so some junior can spend Christmas his kids, what about my grandkids!
@#$! that!
Signed selfish Gen X

I don't think it's selfish to give all pay scale levels the same percentage of raise. Why make the discrepancies *bigger*?

[cdnavater]

Yup. Not to mention that it would likely only take a 1 dollar decrease on the top scale to give the first few years a 5 or 10 dollar increase, depending on the company's demographics. It would take an almost insignifcant reduction on the top scale to vastly improve quality of life for the new/junior guys. If you compare the after tax income it would be even more extreme.

It's not necessarily a union thing though, I'm surprised the company doesn't fight that more. They should want higher pay for new hires, that's what gets them in the door.

So, here is the conundrum, the ones now at the top scale have been under the same system where there is a delay in the pay progression favouring the later years. We are here now and waited patiently for the payoff and the suggestion that we should share the wealth is equally selfish but no junior pilot would admit it!
I have heard the same argument for why I should give up my holidays, I missed many major events and Christmas holidays but now that I can hold them, I shouldn’t so some junior can spend Christmas his kids, what about my grandkids!
@#$! that!
Signed selfish Gen X

I don't think it's selfish to give all pay scale levels the same percentage of raise. Why make the discrepancies *bigger*?

Because there is one pie, to give all the same percentage raise would require dividing the pie differently and let’s be honest, if all pilots got a 25% raise, you’ll still hear the juniors complaining that their 25% only gave them 20 bucks while the seniors got 60!

[digits_]

So, here is the conundrum, the ones now at the top scale have been under the same system where there is a delay in the pay progression favouring the later years. We are here now and waited patiently for the payoff and the suggestion that we should share the wealth is equally selfish but no junior pilot would admit it!
I have heard the same argument for why I should give up my holidays, I missed many major events and Christmas holidays but now that I can hold them, I shouldn’t so some junior can spend Christmas his kids, what about my grandkids!
@#$! that!
Signed selfish Gen X

I don't think it's selfish to give all pay scale levels the same percentage of raise. Why make the discrepancies *bigger*?

Because there is one pie, to give all the same percentage raise would require dividing the pie differently and let’s be honest, if all pilots got a 25% raise, you’ll still hear the juniors complaining that their 25% only gave them 20 bucks while the seniors got 60!

That would mean that the senior makes 3 times as much as the junior to fly the same plane. Yes, understandably people would complain about that.
I am a bit confused as to why you would think that's a valid argument to explain why the difference between junior and senior got bigger again, both in absolute and relative numbers?

[cdnavater]

I don't think it's selfish to give all pay scale levels the same percentage of raise. Why make the discrepancies *bigger*?

Because there is one pie, to give all the same percentage raise would require dividing the pie differently and let’s be honest, if all pilots got a 25% raise, you’ll still hear the juniors complaining that their 25% only gave them 20 bucks while the seniors got 60!

That would mean that the senior makes 3 times as much as the junior to fly the same plane. Yes, understandably people would complain about that.
I am a bit confused as to why you would think that's a valid argument to explain why the difference between junior and senior got bigger again, both in absolute and relative numbers?

I was merely pointing out that, with your suggestion that it’s not selfish to give all pilots the same percentage raise, I used 25% and the common practice of complainers using bottom FO and top Captain to compare how bad they have it.
My point being if the FO was 80/hr and gained 25%, it’s a 20/hr raise and a top Captain made 240 and gained 25%, it’s 60, they all got the same 25% but that would not be good enough.
My other point is, the pay system has been this way for my entire career and I’m at the point where I want to get the reward for a long career, it’s not about I suffered so should you, it’s about I suffered now I want the reward. There is a pay scale, it’s top heavy and longevity absolutely should count.
I’m not naive, I know the demographic will shift and when that happens, I 100% guarantee that the juniors will sell out the seniors, it’s human nature to look out for one’s own self interest, in the meantime I will capitalize as much as possible.

[digits_]

My other point is, the pay system has been this way for my entire career

Objectively, no it hasn't. There was a certain FO / CPT ratio, and this new TA makes the discrepancy between the 2 of them worse.

If roughly everyone got a 25% raise across the board, you could somewhat ethically say "it's been like this for my whole career, it's only fair it stays this way". But this new change with a 4% raise for juniors and 30%+ raise for seniors makes it objectively worse.

It turns into an "it's been like this for my whole career, and now I'm going to make things even worse an get even more because I can". It's absolutely disgusting.

[cdnavater]

My other point is, the pay system has been this way for my entire career

Objectively, no it hasn't. There was a certain FO / CPT ratio, and this new TA makes the discrepancy between the 2 of them worse.

If roughly everyone got a 25% raise across the board, you could somewhat ethically say "it's been like this for my whole career, it's only fair it stays this way". But this new change with a 4% raise for juniors and 30%+ raise for seniors makes it objectively worse.

It turns into an "it's been like this for my whole career, and now I'm going to make things even worse an get even more because I can". It's absolutely disgusting.

First of all, the system I’m talking about is the low pay in the first number of years and higher pay later on.
The pay scale was clearly targeted, they seem to have matched the low first two years for FOs and if you take a closer look, after the first two years, it’s, 16, 16, 36, 32, 29. Other than the first two years, they were not forgotten.
Lastly, if they were having trouble attracting and retaining FO level experience, they would have done something about it!