DEC Questions

[TheRealMcCoy]

Aside from the posted minimums and requirements. Are there certain aspects they value above others time wise?

What’s schedule look like for a first year capt out of yy or yvr?

[co-joe]

We'll know in 14 days if the new TA gets ratified because it has specific wording that will make it very unlikely that the company will be able to hire any DECs over the next few years. My guess is that we would need to acquire 20 more aircraft before we would be in a position to take a DEC as virtually all FOs meet the upgrade requirements except a few cadets.

[flying4dollars]

I remember a time when the DEC's who parachuted in and took upgrades away from FO's wanted separate seniority lists so that when the FO's did upgrade, they'd maintain their seniority over them. Spearheaded by the Cathay fellas no doubt. As if being widebody captains making bank wasn't enough for them. That was swiftly shot down, thankfully. There was a narrow window for experienced guys from overseas to come to Flair DEC; It was during the initial expansion when there was a need for it. If Flair is at a crew manning point where they have upgradeable FO's, then the need for DEC should be abolished.

[Arnie Pye]

I remember a time when the DEC's who parachuted in and took upgrades away from FO's wanted separate seniority lists so that when the FO's did upgrade, they'd maintain their seniority over them. Spearheaded by the Cathay fellas no doubt. As if being widebody captains making bank wasn't enough for them. That was swiftly shot down, thankfully. There was a narrow window for experienced guys from overseas to come to Flair DEC; It was during the initial expansion when there was a need for it. If Flair is at a crew manning point where they have upgradeable FO's, then the need for DEC should be abolished.

I'd like to see any objective evidence to support that statement. Flair has always upgraded anyone that met the upgrade matrix and passed the various steps outlined in the upgrade program. They have in the past lowered those requirements to accommodate more FO's rather than go off the street a couple of years back.

We'll know in 14 days if the new TA gets ratified because it has specific wording that will make it very unlikely that the company will be able to hire any DECs over the next few years. My guess is that we would need to acquire 20 more aircraft before we would be in a position to take a DEC as virtually all FOs meet the upgrade requirements except a few cadets.

Every day that goes by, more FO's qualify based on meeting the upgrade time requirements. This much is true. I don't know if I read this section to the same level of detail that you did, as I don't remember reading anything that prevents the company from carrying on as they see fit. I am far from a Flair lover but I believe that the company will make every honest effort to upgrade as many people as possible before looking off the street. Given that fleet expansion exists only in the hopes and dreams of management and FO's alike, this may still take a while.

If you want a quick upgrade, go to Air Canada. If you want a western lifestyle, wait until WestJet is hiring. Otherwise, you're stuck waiting your turn once you meet the matrix and pass the interview and sim.

To summarize, I don't see any need for DEC's within the scope of this upcoming TA.

[flying4dollars]

I remember a time when the DEC's who parachuted in and took upgrades away from FO's wanted separate seniority lists so that when the FO's did upgrade, they'd maintain their seniority over them. Spearheaded by the Cathay fellas no doubt. As if being widebody captains making bank wasn't enough for them. That was swiftly shot down, thankfully. There was a narrow window for experienced guys from overseas to come to Flair DEC; It was during the initial expansion when there was a need for it. If Flair is at a crew manning point where they have upgradeable FO's, then the need for DEC should be abolished.

I'd like to see any objective evidence to support that statement. Flair has always upgraded anyone that met the upgrade matrix and passed the various steps outlined in the upgrade program. They have in the past lowered those requirements to accommodate more FO's rather than go off the street a couple of years back.

We'll know in 14 days if the new TA gets ratified because it has specific wording that will make it very unlikely that the company will be able to hire any DECs over the next few years. My guess is that we would need to acquire 20 more aircraft before we would be in a position to take a DEC as virtually all FOs meet the upgrade requirements except a few cadets.

Every day that goes by, more FO's qualify based on meeting the upgrade time requirements. This much is true. I don't know if I read this section to the same level of detail that you did, as I don't remember reading anything that prevents the company from carrying on as they see fit. I am far from a Flair lover but I believe that the company will make every honest effort to upgrade as many people as possible before looking off the street. Given that fleet expansion exists only in the hopes and dreams of management and FO's alike, this may still take a while.

If you want a quick upgrade, go to Air Canada. If you want a western lifestyle, wait until WestJet is hiring. Otherwise, you're stuck waiting your turn once you meet the matrix and pass the interview and sim.

To summarize, I don't see any need for DEC's within the scope of this upcoming TA.

I'm not suggesting these are present practices. What I'm referencing happened circa 2019/2020. A number of those DECs who came in around that time were filling available captain positions that could have been filled by FO's who met the matrix. The matrix was initially designed to allow the company to filter who they did and didn't want qualifying for the upgrade. A number of those DEC's also started rallying for separate lists to maintain seniority. I can't provide any evidence naturally as I'm not in the habit of screenshotting and saving group chat/union emails from past employers, but I was there and watched it unfold. Post pandemic yes, the matrix was fine tuned and it was more clear who did and didn't definitively qualify, I'm not refuting that at all.

Also the quick upgrades at AC are no longer a thing. I believe they are minimum 4-5 years wait now for anyone coming in (that info came from someone who knows more than I). What is the upgrade wait at Flair? Just curious.