ATPL workarounds?

[Bigbucky456]

Just curious if anyone has found a solution to the new ATPL skill requirement? (PIC PPC in the last 12 months) I am currently working as an FO at a 705 and don’t really want to wait 3-4 more years for an upgrade just to get the ATPL and finally be able to apply to AC.

Some ideas I have bounced around; paying for a PIC PPC on a level D sim on the current aircraft I fly (however flight safety already told me they won’t rent the sim out to randoms, maybe there are other training providers that would)
-Leaving 705 jet job to go back on a small turboprop as PIC (risky as if AC does not hire me I will have given up my job & seniority at current airline)
-Sitting and waiting for the upgrade (3-4 years)

Any input is welcome just trying to think outside the box here.

Thanks

[careerpilot?]

I think you might have a couple options:

1. Get a PIC PPC on the cheapest multi-crew Level D sim you can find, regardless of airframe type (lots of work and expense);

2. Go do an IPC on a cheap multi at a flight school. This will get you the restricted ATPL. Maybe someone in the know can advise whether AC is accepting restricted ATPLs for FOs hiring?

[flyinhigh]

For the love of gawd do not go try to spend 10K+ to get a PIC PPC on a 705 machine for the sake of getting the ATPL to MAYBE get over to AC quicker.

You will find numerous posts all over this site about buying a PPC. Go fly a BE-02, PA-31 or something to get meet the requirements, it looks way better and you get PIC time which is highly more valuable than buying a PPC to fly right seat for however long.

Also, what is your current experience?

[IJNShiroyuki]

airline will have to start hiring FO without CPL and get comfortable upgrading CPL FO to PIC position. Transport canada issue a document clarifying the changes and made a few explanations of the new process, and what ppc works and what doesn't. You should probably look into that. You can also go and work for a few company that flies metro or beechcraft 1900 around, which are two crewed aircraft, but holds an exemption from TC to be able to upgrade PIC at 1200 hour without CPL...

[Blackdog0301]

If you aren't planning to stay at your current 705 even after you obtain an ATPL, then retaining any sort of seniority at that company should not be a priority for you. Getting your ATPL should be the priority. Go out and get your PIC time. If AC is your goal, then I think it's a no brainer. Plus that experience you gain even from a 703 is incredibly valuable.

[Bigbucky456]

Appreciate the input. For reference I do have a bit of PIC time on a 1900 so I could go back to a job like that. Currently flying a jet at a 705 operator; 1850 TT.

[goldeneagle]

airline will have to start hiring FO without CPL and get comfortable upgrading CPL FO to PIC position. Transport canada issue a document clarifying the changes and made a few explanations of the new process, and what ppc works and what doesn't. You should probably look into that. You can also go and work for a few company that flies metro or beechcraft 1900 around, which are two crewed aircraft, but holds an exemption from TC to be able to upgrade PIC at 1200 hour without CPL...

I wanna know who is hiring metro or beech 1900 without a CPL ????

[pild04]

You could just do a Group 1 IPC on a muti engine at a flight school to get your unrestricted ATPL. That is your cheapest alternative.

Reference from TC:

[goldeneagle]

You could just do a Group 1 IPC on a muti engine at a flight school to get your unrestricted ATPL. That is your cheapest alternative.

Reference from TC:

Read it carefully, do the IPC at a flight school, and you get the restricted atpl. To get unrestricted it must be a two crew ride for an operator that has all the ducks in a row for two crew operations on the airplane. It's not as simple as just once around the patch and then off to do a ride in that scenario.

[Daniel Cooper]

You could do this one weird trick where you get the experience the regulations are trying to ensure by operating a two crew aircraft as a captain.

[Bigbucky456]

You could do this one weird trick where you get the experience the regulations are trying to ensure by operating a two crew aircraft as a captain.

I actually was a captain on a 2 crew aircraft, however the PPC has to be within the last 12 months.

[IJNShiroyuki]

airline will have to start hiring FO without CPL and get comfortable upgrading CPL FO to PIC position. Transport canada issue a document clarifying the changes and made a few explanations of the new process, and what ppc works and what doesn't. You should probably look into that. You can also go and work for a few company that flies metro or beechcraft 1900 around, which are two crewed aircraft, but holds an exemption from TC to be able to upgrade PIC at 1200 hour without CPL...

I wanna know who is hiring metro or beech 1900 without a CPL ????

That was a typo, without ATPL

[pild04]

You could just do a Group 1 IPC on a muti engine at a flight school to get your unrestricted ATPL. That is your cheapest alternative.

Reference from TC:

Read it carefully, do the IPC at a flight school, and you get the restricted atpl. To get unrestricted it must be a two crew ride for an operator that has all the ducks in a row for two crew operations on the airplane. It's not as simple as just once around the patch and then off to do a ride in that scenario.

My apologies. Yes, you are right

[Red_Comet]

The real question I haven't seen answered is:

Are airlines demanding non-restricted ATPLs? From what I understand, the restricted and un-restricted are identical for all intents and purposes aside from some ICAO requirements.

Not sure if TC has updated their requirements to require a non-restricted ATPL yet, but even if it has, once you have the restricted ATPL you'll be doing a PIC PPC prior to upgrading anyway. You'll just have to wait on the paperwork from TC (what else is new?) prior to flying PIC after your PIC PPC is complete.

Just get the restricted and apply to AC. See what they say. You won't be applying for a captain job so I don't see what it's such a huge deal.

[porcsord]

Ah good, workaround, that's what I like to see. Just wait until you discover pencil whipping, you can get around all sorts of inconvenient requirements.

[co-joe]

... Go fly a BE-02, PA-31 or something to get meet the requirements, it looks way better and you get PIC time which is highly more valuable than buying a PPC to fly right seat for however long.

...

Quit your airline job to go fly a Beech to qualify for a better airline job? What an industry. And people wonder why that AC guy forged his ATPL. He was probably 0.1 hours short in some pointless category like night xc PIC and facing having to pay for it.

[Me262]

... Go fly a BE-02, PA-31 or something to get meet the requirements, it looks way better and you get PIC time which is highly more valuable than buying a PPC to fly right seat for however long.

...

Quit your airline job to go fly a Beech to qualify for a better airline job? What an industry. And people wonder why that AC guy forged his ATPL. He was probably 0.1 hours short in some pointless category like night xc PIC and facing having to pay for it.

Exactly, absolutely ridiculous. Someone who is eligible for right seat 705, with whatever he got, SHOULD NOT need anything else to be able to upgrade to captain. From bare bone CPL (if you got a right seat at 705 with that), one should be able to get whatever requirements might be required in the right seat of that 705 aircraft for ATPL, full stop.

[goldeneagle]

ATPL requirements have been significantly watered down over the years. Back in the 80's I was CP at a small outfit and had a guy come looking for a summer job. At that time, ATPL required 1500 hours, of which 750 had to be command time, and 2nd seat time only counted half. The guy in question was hired by AC strait out of Selkirk college some years earlier, had about 3000 hours right seat in the diesel 9, but only 350 PIC. He had taken a leave of absence at the airline for the summer so he could get his PIC time up over 750. We were located in his home town, so he wanted to come and fly the 185 for the summer, get his PIC time up over the magic number, then go back to the airline and move to the left seat.

However the requirements change over time, you are always going to get some folks complaining about how it's so bad. Personally, I have always had an issue with the 'under supervision' stuff where they fly around pretending to be in command, but, the real aircraft commander is still sitting in the other seat. Others have issue with instructors getting an ATPL based on 1500 hours of instructing. This new requirement is a step in the direction that closes that option.

You want an airline transport license, you pass a PIC ride in an airline style situation.

The real gripe with this new requirement, is likely less about the need for that ride, and more about the processing time after the ride in order to get the actual license, which is a whole different kettle of fish. To bad the days of old no longer exist. When I got my atpl, I lined up all the paperwork, took it to the TC offices on the south side at YVR, presented the logbook. An inspector went thru it, signed off the application, and an hour later the lady behind the desk handed me a freshly printed ATPL.

If the license processing system was fixed such that the ATPL becomes available same day, or even same week, as the ride, then it becomes very much a non issue, even for those at an airline. Take your command course, pass the ride, and voila, you get the license required for the seat immediately.

[bobcaygeon]

The previous requirements allowed you to get an ATPL without essentially leaving the circuit.

With this being a very recent change to standardize with ICAO even TC Licensing and Flight Ops are still working out the process.

The ACP manual says the ACP must seek/involve TC for approval to do a PIC PPC on a commercial licence holder (not new).

I foresee Canadian Airlines accepting the restricted ATPL as they now have the same issue internally.

[‘Bob’]

The previous requirements allowed you to get an ATPL without essentially leaving the circuit.

Funny how the times you actually do leave the circuit are the crux to almost every gear and flap operator getting their ATPL.

Those taught me a lot more and gained me more decision making skills than sitting next to “dad” on some boring flight in the flight levels.

[Bede]

The previous requirements allowed you to get an ATPL without essentially leaving the circuit.

Couldn't this problem be solved with going the opposite direction - for example - 250 hours multi PIC?

[MrAviator19]

I think you might have a couple options:

1. Get a PIC PPC on the cheapest multi-crew Level D sim you can find, regardless of airframe type (lots of work and expense);

2. Go do an IPC on a cheap multi at a flight school. This will get you the restricted ATPL. Maybe someone in the know can advise whether AC is accepting restricted ATPLs for FOs hiring?

No, AC does not hire anyone with restricted ATPLs.

[Daniel Cooper]

Quit your airline job to go fly a Beech to qualify for a better airline job? What an industry. And people wonder why that AC guy forged his ATPL. He was probably 0.1 hours short in some pointless category like night xc PIC and facing having to pay for it.

Sounds like a great way to improve yourself, your decision making abilities, and a bunch of other personal skills that you don't get while being under supervision. It's not about your ability to fly an airplane. Anyone can do that.

[Bigbucky456]

I think it is simply a case of being stuck in the middle during these changes. Had the changes come earlier I would have just remained left seat on the 1900 until I had my ATPL, I imagine this is what most pilots coming up will do- stay at a 703 until they can upgrade and get ATPL then move onto a 705. I do not want to give up my current job at a large 705 company & go back to a small turboprop, so I will likely just have to wait a few years for an upgrade and reassess if AC is still worth it for me.

Appreciate the input

[goldeneagle]

No, AC does not hire anyone with restricted ATPLs.

That's because no such license exists yet, but times are a changing.