Jazz AC FLOW

[rudder]

I don't know the details of the PML/flow specifically, but in practice, ground schools at AC are filled by Jazz pilots Between I believe September and January. This year the projection of new hires is 450-600. About 20 every class with roughly 2 classes a month with the exception of maybe the summer. I'm told the peak retirement years begin in 2027 with about 300/year. So those positions will need to be filled and this isn't accounting for growth which is planned for 30% by the mid 2030's.

I am not sure those numbers are accurate. You do not hire 600 pilots for the 120 vacancies identified in the latest bid (projected 12 months in to the future). Peak block hours are the summer months so most projected staffing is for June-September schedule factoring in DBM maximums.

I haven’t seen anything on the order of 300 age 65 retirements per year projected. Recall there was a hiring gap at AC from 1990-1994 (not sure about CDN). You are correct that the last of the late 1980’s hires should be 65 over the next 2-3 years.

AC is rarely ahead of the curve. 500 pilots could be hired but once trained it may be low blocking for several positions unless flying levels are restored. The transborder schedule is still significantly below past peak and that circumstance may continue through the remainder of the Trump term.

Delayed deliveries. Engine replacement issues. Increased fuel expense. These are all drags on otherwise impressive planned growth.

As for Jazz flow - if 2026 aggregate hiring at AC ends up in the 300-400 range, then Jazz would be expected to migrate 90-120 pilots (assuming that there are sufficient qualified applicants) mostly manifest in the final four months of 2026. It would be another major breach of the PML if AC decides to shut down hiring in the second half of 2026 thereby stranding flow candidates at Jazz.

[LongBranch]

I don't know the details of the PML/flow specifically, but in practice, ground schools at AC are filled by Jazz pilots Between I believe September and January. This year the projection of new hires is 450-600. About 20 every class with roughly 2 classes a month with the exception of maybe the summer. I'm told the peak retirement years begin in 2027 with about 300/year. So those positions will need to be filled and this isn't accounting for growth which is planned for 30% by the mid 2030's.

I am not sure those numbers are accurate. You do not hire 600 pilots for the 120 vacancies identified in the latest bid (projected 12 months in to the future). Peak block hours are the summer months so most projected staffing is for June-September schedule factoring in DBM maximums.

I haven’t seen anything on the order of 300 age 65 retirements per year projected. Recall there was a hiring gap at AC from 1990-1994 (not sure about CDN). You are correct that the last of the late 1980’s hires should be 65 over the next 2-3 years.

AC is rarely ahead of the curve. 500 pilots could be hired but once trained it may be low blocking for several positions unless flying levels are restored. The transborder schedule is still significantly below past peak and that circumstance may continue through the remainder of the Trump term.

Delayed deliveries. Engine replacement issues. Increased fuel expense. These are all drags on otherwise impressive planned growth.

As for Jazz flow - if 2026 aggregate hiring at AC ends up in the 300-400 range, then Jazz would be expected to migrate 90-120 pilots (assuming that there are sufficient qualified applicants) mostly manifest in the final four months of 2026. It would be another major breach of the PML if AC decides to shut down hiring in the second half of 2026 thereby stranding flow candidates at Jazz.

Based off the Alpa pension calculator, the union is roughly calculating 200 people aging out in 2026-2029. Dropping down to about 100-120 a year thereafter relatively indefinitely. There is the DP Pension over contribution, so I believe the company has to offer 80 extra retirements this year. This does not include people electing to retire early or losing a medical ext... Also when CWIPP paying pilots can retire with no income loss at 60 which change numbers a lot; however that is problem in 10-15 years not now.

[flying4dollars]

I am not sure those numbers are accurate. You do not hire 600 pilots for the 120 vacancies identified in the latest bid (projected 12 months in to the future). Peak block hours are the summer months so most projected staffing is for June-September schedule factoring in DBM maximums.

I haven’t seen anything on the order of 300 age 65 retirements per year projected. Recall there was a hiring gap at AC from 1990-1994 (not sure about CDN). You are correct that the last of the late 1980’s hires should be 65 over the next 2-3 years.

AC is rarely ahead of the curve. 500 pilots could be hired but once trained it may be low blocking for several positions unless flying levels are restored. The transborder schedule is still significantly below past peak and that circumstance may continue through the remainder of the Trump term.

Delayed deliveries. Engine replacement issues. Increased fuel expense. These are all drags on otherwise impressive planned growth.

As for Jazz flow - if 2026 aggregate hiring at AC ends up in the 300-400 range, then Jazz would be expected to migrate 90-120 pilots (assuming that there are sufficient qualified applicants) mostly manifest in the final four months of 2026. It would be another major breach of the PML if AC decides to shut down hiring in the second half of 2026 thereby stranding flow candidates at Jazz.

Just to clarify, this is all second hand info from couple of pilots who are involved with hiring that I ran into at flight ops during my recurrent. I agree that 600 may be a bit exaggerated but after referencing the new hire bios, I see we are already over 200 new hires halfway thru the year. The 300 retirements 2027 onwards came from a union guy. While this recent bid's 120 positions was definitely uninspiring, we have still another summer bid coming and potentially 2 after that, so maybe the numbers are not that far from the truth. I agree that AC is never ahead of the curve, but Murray had mentioned they kept planning ground schools for that very reason. So, maybe in that department it's a first.

[rudder]

Just to clarify, this is all second hand info from couple of pilots who are involved with hiring that I ran into at flight ops during my recurrent. I agree that 600 may be a bit exaggerated but after referencing the new hire bios, I see we are already over 200 new hires halfway thru the year. The 300 retirements 2027 onwards came from a union guy. While this recent bid's 120 positions was definitely uninspiring, we have still another summer bid coming and potentially 2 after that, so maybe the numbers are not that far from the truth. I agree that AC is never ahead of the curve, but Murray had mentioned they kept planning ground schools for that very reason. So, maybe in that department it's a first.

Thx. FWIW - I wouldn’t be surprised to see hiring shut down for the summer then just calculate the Jazz ratio for any hiring for the remainder of the year. The larger hiring cycle could resume again in January 2027 hopefully coincident with bids identifying greater numbers of vacancies.

So for Jazz PMA pilots this could be as few as 85 for 2026 ((85+200)x0.3=85). Would equal approximately 21 per month Sept-Dec. Not even sure there are that many waiting in queue. Also not sure Jazz is staffed to withstand 85 PMA departures, plus 20 VSP, plus retirement, plus natural attrition over just 4 months.

Perhaps going forward both Jazz and AC would be better served to identify where the 12 month window should be calculated to maximize efficiency. It may be that they have already decided that the calendar year meets that objective. Jazz low block hour season is typically November-February so that represents the optimal catch-up period for hiring to offset known and forecast attrition.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Just to clarify, this is all second hand info from couple of pilots who are involved with hiring that I ran into at flight ops during my recurrent. I agree that 600 may be a bit exaggerated but after referencing the new hire bios, I see we are already over 200 new hires halfway thru the year. The 300 retirements 2027 onwards came from a union guy. While this recent bid's 120 positions was definitely uninspiring, we have still another summer bid coming and potentially 2 after that, so maybe the numbers are not that far from the truth. I agree that AC is never ahead of the curve, but Murray had mentioned they kept planning ground schools for that very reason. So, maybe in that department it's a first.

Thx. FWIW - I wouldn’t be surprised to see hiring shut down for the summer then just calculate the Jazz ratio for any hiring for the remainder of the year. The larger hiring cycle could resume again in January 2027 hopefully coincident with bids identifying greater numbers of vacancies.

So for Jazz PMA pilots this could be as few as 85 for 2026 ((85+200)x0.3=85). Would equal approximately 21 per month Sept-Dec. Not even sure there are that many waiting in queue. Also not sure Jazz is staffed to withstand 85 PMA departures, plus 20 VSP, plus retirement, plus natural attrition over just 4 months.

Perhaps going forward both Jazz and AC would be better served to identify where the 12 month window should be calculated to maximize efficiency. It may be that they have already decided that the calendar year meets that objective. Jazz low block hour season is typically November-February so that represents the optimal catch-up period for hiring to offset known and forecast attrition.

I wouldn't base my career choice on AC respecting it's flow agreement. Also the JZA reps made it clear it's a fight they want to take and AC made it clear they don't care about this contract clause.

[flying4dollars]

I wouldn't base my career choice on AC respecting it's flow agreement. Also the JZA reps made it clear it's a fight they want to take and AC made it clear they don't care about this contract clause.

Couldn't agree more. I would be planning my path to AC by going somewhere I'd be happy to hang my hat if AC never worked out.

[Canadaflyer46]

I had thought this topic had been put to bed, but here’s the golden rule for anyone that may have missed it:

End goal of AC - go fly at Encore.
End goal of WJ - go to Jazz.

That is all. Over and out.

[LineUpAndWait]

I had thought this topic had been put to bed, but here’s the golden rule for anyone that may have missed it:

End goal of AC - go fly at Encore.
End goal of WJ - go to Jazz.

That is all. Over and out.

Just noticed that Air Canada posted opening for "AC Express Pilot" on 1st July and it specifically mentions the following:

• "Air Canada’s primary source of pilots is our flow-through agreement with Jazz."

• "Having flown a minimum of two years with your current Express carrier" (one of their desirable additional qualifications).

Still need 2,000hrs TT and all the other good stuff, but it does sound possible that AC may hire someone who spends less than 2 years at Jazz as long as they are competitive. Anyone know/heard of any cases of this happening?

[JungleRiot]

Jazz AC Flow? Never heard of her. Does not compute

[Nick678]

I had thought this topic had been put to bed, but here’s the golden rule for anyone that may have missed it:

End goal of AC - go fly at Encore.
End goal of WJ - go to Jazz.

That is all. Over and out.

Just noticed that Air Canada posted opening for "AC Express Pilot" on 1st July and it specifically mentions the following:

• "Air Canada’s primary source of pilots is our flow-through agreement with Jazz."

• "Having flown a minimum of two years with your current Express carrier" (one of their desirable additional qualifications).

Still need 2,000hrs TT and all the other good stuff, but it does sound possible that AC may hire someone who spends less than 2 years at Jazz as long as they are competitive. Anyone know/heard of any cases of this happening?

I had thought this topic had been put to bed, but here’s the golden rule for anyone that may have missed it:

End goal of AC - go fly at Encore.
End goal of WJ - go to Jazz.

That is all. Over and out.

Just noticed that Air Canada posted opening for "AC Express Pilot" on 1st July and it specifically mentions the following:

• "Air Canada’s primary source of pilots is our flow-through agreement with Jazz."

• "Having flown a minimum of two years with your current Express carrier" (one of their desirable additional qualifications).

Still need 2,000hrs TT and all the other good stuff, but it does sound possible that AC may hire someone who spends less than 2 years at Jazz as long as they are competitive. Anyone know/heard of any cases of this happening?

I know some who went right at the 2 year mark but as far as I'm aware nobody has gone before 2 years. If you read the history in the thread you would be lucky to flow within the bounds of the contract at all. AC always hires express in the fall/winter to add insult to injury.

Another dynamic is the lack of replacement jets planned for Jazz, E175's are getting old and the CRJ's are expensive to run at these gas prices. AC has another 23 A220's coming, shrinking US Market could see these deployed regionally. Air Canada has proven it doesn't really give a shit about the CPA and I can see them pulling the 85 aircraft minimum and Jazz becoming a DH4 only operator.

[hithere]

AC won’t mess with the minimum tail #(it’s 80 not 85) because that’s part of the CPA between AC management and Jazz management. They will however f$ck with the Jazz collective agreement as much as they want because they just don’t care about the terms of flow.
As far as fleet, if anything it would be PAL that eventually takes over all the DH4 flying, while Jazz becomes an all 76 seat jet operation at 80 tails. All they need to do is get the E175s that have the angled winglets like Horizon has and they could base those in YVR as well

[Nick678]

AC won’t mess with the minimum tail #(it’s 80 not 85) because that’s part of the CPA between AC management and Jazz management. They will however f$ck with the Jazz collective agreement as much as they want because they just don’t care about the terms of flow.
As far as fleet, if anything it would be PAL that eventually takes over all the DH4 flying, while Jazz becomes an all 76 seat jet operation at 80 tails. All they need to do is get the E175s that have the angled winglets like Horizon has and they could base those in YVR as well

Jazz management didn’t bat an eye when AC broke the exclusivity agreement. Jazz is scared to bite the hand that feeds.

[LineUpAndWait]

AC won’t mess with the minimum tail #(it’s 80 not 85) because that’s part of the CPA between AC management and Jazz management. They will however f$ck with the Jazz collective agreement as much as they want because they just don’t care about the terms of flow.
As far as fleet, if anything it would be PAL that eventually takes over all the DH4 flying, while Jazz becomes an all 76 seat jet operation at 80 tails. All they need to do is get the E175s that have the angled winglets like Horizon has and they could base those in YVR as well

Jazz management didn’t bat an eye when AC broke the exclusivity agreement. Jazz is scared to bite the hand that feeds.

AC gets a lot of criticism for not meeting its flow agreement, but is it possible that Jazz is primarily responsible for fewer pilots going to AC? I think Jazz would have more to lose since they would have a harder time filling line positions (especially captain positions), which could lead to less flying and lower revenue. Why else would AC hire fewer Jazz pilots who would otherwise be qualified to work at AC?

[hithere]

Whenever AC hires a Jazz pilot, it triggers two training events at the AC “family”. One at AC itself for the new hire, and another at Jazz to replace the pilot that just left. I’ve heard that training costs at Jazz are paid for by AC as part of “pass through” costs, but I’m not sure if that’s true. In any event the costs are doubled as opposed to hiring a pilot from Encore/Porter etc. So the purpose of the flow agreement is to force AC to hire Jazz pilots despite the fact that it costs more to do so than hiring outside the AC network. However the terms of the agreement have not been followed over the past couple of years so its value is debatable

[digits_]

Whenever AC hires a Jazz pilot, it triggers two training events at the AC “family”. One at AC itself for the new hire, and another at Jazz to replace the pilot that just left. I’ve heard that training costs at Jazz are paid for by AC as part of “pass through” costs, but I’m not sure if that’s true. In any event the costs are doubled as opposed to hiring a pilot from Encore/Porter etc. So the purpose of the flow agreement is to force AC to hire Jazz pilots despite the fact that it costs more to do so than hiring outside the AC network. However the terms of the agreement have not been followed over the past couple of years so its value is debatable

It's a very narrow minded way of looking at things, which is why I don't doubt management looks at it this way as well. That pilot wanting to leave Jazz will leave either way. If it's not for AC, then for WJ as soon as he gets the chance. There will be 2 training events one way or the other.

[Nick678]

AC won’t mess with the minimum tail #(it’s 80 not 85) because that’s part of the CPA between AC management and Jazz management. They will however f$ck with the Jazz collective agreement as much as they want because they just don’t care about the terms of flow.
As far as fleet, if anything it would be PAL that eventually takes over all the DH4 flying, while Jazz becomes an all 76 seat jet operation at 80 tails. All they need to do is get the E175s that have the angled winglets like Horizon has and they could base those in YVR as well

Jazz management didn’t bat an eye when AC broke the exclusivity agreement. Jazz is scared to bite the hand that feeds.

AC gets a lot of criticism for not meeting its flow agreement, but is it possible that Jazz is primarily responsible for fewer pilots going to AC? I think Jazz would have more to lose since they would have a harder time filling line positions (especially captain positions), which could lead to less flying and lower revenue. Why else would AC hire fewer Jazz pilots who would otherwise be qualified to work at AC?

I believe that was the findings of the CIRB, That for commercial interest Jazz could not "release" those pilots to AC. For companies that operate totally separately this is a unique relationship.