Is this job worth being broke for the next decade?

[SpyPilot]

And with that, time to lock-down another right-off-the-rails AvCanada thread.

[pelmet]

And with that, time to lock-down another right-off-the-rails AvCanada thread.

While I would agree that there have been many AvCanada threads that have gone off the rails, I am not sure that it applies to this one.

Based on my observations of responses to my suggestions on how lost aviator could get the experience he requires for a 705 captain job, I just don’t think that it is worth it for him. I have tried to give advice in this and other threads on ways to get flying experience(towing gliders, instructing, working the dock type jobs to get an inside edge). He has basically indicated that he is not going to pursue these options. Therefore, I think that he is wasting valuable money that would be better spent on his family, rather than spending a lot of money on further attempts to reach the multi-IFR level, especially when there has been a recent decrease in his income.

A search shows that there hhave been several similar threads started and I am not the first one to make this recommendation. I did honestly try to make some suggestions of ways to move forward in various replies.

[JeppsOnFire]

Well, he's been actively responding/pushing back to everyone even though he's being dogpiled as a whiner. Persistence is an important characteristic to have in this biz. So there's that.
I think season of life combined with low risk tolerance is causing the indecision.
It really is an all-or-nothing deal. Make a choice. Both are hard.

[Blueontop]

I don’t see your point? Success is measured in more than what job you’re doing?


You can have your dream job to be a terrible person (Joe)

The point is.....Joe may be a character but he offered a great opportunity to someone willing to do the job(instead of complaining about it) and now does exactly what you likely dream of doing. So, go get the dock job(or instructor) if you want to move ahead. I worked two aviation non-flying jobs(maintenance helper and baggage handler) before getting that first flying job. It shows a commitment to aviation compared to those who just want to try it for a while.

The nice thing about an instructor job is that you may be able to do a flexible schedule and keep your other job. And if the commercial route doesn't work, you will have more flying experience and perhaps be a fairly experienced pilot if you buy or rent an aircraft in the future.

Thanks Pelmet, you'd be surprised how picky even in the good times schools were for instructors. Unless you were a Class 1 there was no part time sadly.

Whether you think can or can’t your right. Shit or get off the pot. You make every excuse in the book to not pursue so just give it up and move on. Or don’t and go all in! You been given all the advice one needs to make an informed decision…

[Eric Janson]

Hi hoping to hear from people who have been in a similar boat, I’m in my 30s and have been working an office job that was paying well until recently, I didn’t plan on staying forever but due to the economy my income has been cut by 40%, I’m almost done flight training but the economy has hit aviation even harder.

Taking a pay cut has really made me stressed about money, I’m realizing that it could be a decade or more to get to a captain job at a 705 and have a block.

I’m starting to feel like this is a lost cause especially for someone who is already stressed about money?

I don't know your personal circumstances but you certainly don't need to be broke for the next decade.

It's quite simple - live within your means.

If you make xx/month you alter your lifestyle so you spend less than xx/month.

Not sure why people have so much trouble with this simple concept.

If you are stressed about money then you are doing something wrong - JMHO.

My first Commercial job was working for Buffalo - paid $660/month + accommodation. I still managed to save money every month.

You couldn't be more wrong about Joe - seems like you still have some important life lessons to learn.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[Eric Janson]

Double post - deleted

[lostav8r]

Hi hoping to hear from people who have been in a similar boat, I’m in my 30s and have been working an office job that was paying well until recently, I didn’t plan on staying forever but due to the economy my income has been cut by 40%, I’m almost done flight training but the economy has hit aviation even harder.

Taking a pay cut has really made me stressed about money, I’m realizing that it could be a decade or more to get to a captain job at a 705 and have a block.

I’m starting to feel like this is a lost cause especially for someone who is already stressed about money?

I don't know your personal circumstances but you certainly don't need to be broke for the next decade.

It's quite simple - live within your means.

If you make xx/month you alter your lifestyle so you spend less than xx/month.

Not sure why people have so much trouble with this simple concept.

If you are stressed about money then you are doing something wrong - JMHO.

My first Commercial job was working for Buffalo - paid $660/month + accommodation. I still managed to save money every month.

You couldn't be more wrong about Joe - seems like you still have some important life lessons to learn.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Car insurance is 500 a month for someone with no accidents or tickets, training is $1000 a lesson, that debt needs to be paid off eventually.

People are suggesting to drive across canada for a road trip when gas is well into $2 a litre in northern Ontario, + expensive hotels.

Say what you want about joe, but there is a TV show and he KNOWS he was being filmed on camera. YELLING at new FO's on a flight with passengers? What happened to CRM?

If he conducts himself like that he's the one who still has a lot to learn!

[SpyPilot]

Tired of your crybaby whining, as I'm sure most of the rest of us here are too.

Joe McBryan wouldn't hire a little bitch like you if you paid him to clean the hangar toilets.

STFU already.

[propfeather]

Hi hoping to hear from people who have been in a similar boat, I’m in my 30s and have been working an office job that was paying well until recently, I didn’t plan on staying forever but due to the economy my income has been cut by 40%, I’m almost done flight training but the economy has hit aviation even harder.

Taking a pay cut has really made me stressed about money, I’m realizing that it could be a decade or more to get to a captain job at a 705 and have a block.

I’m starting to feel like this is a lost cause especially for someone who is already stressed about money?

I don't know your personal circumstances but you certainly don't need to be broke for the next decade.

It's quite simple - live within your means.

If you make xx/month you alter your lifestyle so you spend less than xx/month.

Not sure why people have so much trouble with this simple concept.

If you are stressed about money then you are doing something wrong - JMHO.

My first Commercial job was working for Buffalo - paid $660/month + accommodation. I still managed to save money every month.

You couldn't be more wrong about Joe - seems like you still have some important life lessons to learn.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Car insurance is 500 a month for someone with no accidents or tickets, training is $1000 a lesson, that debt needs to be paid off eventually.

People are suggesting to drive across canada for a road trip when gas is well into $2 a litre in northern Ontario, + expensive hotels.

Say what you want about joe, but there is a TV show and he KNOWS he was being filmed on camera. YELLING at new FO's on a flight with passengers? What happened to CRM?

If he conducts himself like that he's the one who still has a lot to learn!

You need to shop around… I pay $2100/yr for a 1 year old truck.

[lostav8r]

Tired of your crybaby whining, as I'm sure most of the rest of us here are too.

Joe McBryan wouldn't hire a little bitch like you if you paid him to clean the hangar toilets.

STFU already.

If you really think it’s cool to yell at a FO on a flight with passengers and ignore CRM you’re just as fucked as Joe!
I really do not care, if you dislike what I’m writing just ignore it?

[altiplano]

I don't know your personal circumstances but you certainly don't need to be broke for the next decade.

It's quite simple - live within your means.

If you make xx/month you alter your lifestyle so you spend less than xx/month.

Not sure why people have so much trouble with this simple concept.

If you are stressed about money then you are doing something wrong - JMHO.

My first Commercial job was working for Buffalo - paid $660/month + accommodation. I still managed to save money every month.

You couldn't be more wrong about Joe - seems like you still have some important life lessons to learn.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Car insurance is 500 a month for someone with no accidents or tickets, training is $1000 a lesson, that debt needs to be paid off eventually.

People are suggesting to drive across canada for a road trip when gas is well into $2 a litre in northern Ontario, + expensive hotels.

Say what you want about joe, but there is a TV show and he KNOWS he was being filmed on camera. YELLING at new FO's on a flight with passengers? What happened to CRM?

If he conducts himself like that he's the one who still has a lot to learn!

You need to shop around… I pay $2100/yr for a 1 year old truck.

Right?!

I've got a newish $100K truck and pay about $1400/yr.

$6K/year? What are you driving?

[lostav8r]

Car insurance is 500 a month for someone with no accidents or tickets, training is $1000 a lesson, that debt needs to be paid off eventually.

People are suggesting to drive across canada for a road trip when gas is well into $2 a litre in northern Ontario, + expensive hotels.

Say what you want about joe, but there is a TV show and he KNOWS he was being filmed on camera. YELLING at new FO's on a flight with passengers? What happened to CRM?

If he conducts himself like that he's the one who still has a lot to learn!

You need to shop around… I pay $2100/yr for a 1 year old truck.

Right?!

I've got a newish $100K truck and pay about $1400/yr.

$6K/year? What are you driving?

Toyota camry!

[Eric Janson]

Don't know why I bother....

Car insurance is 500 a month for someone with no accidents or tickets, training is $1000 a lesson, that debt needs to be paid off eventually.

Sell the Camry - get a bike, walk or take public transport like a lot of other people. Every 2 months the savings on your insurance cover 1 lesson.

People are suggesting to drive across canada for a road trip when gas is well into $2 a litre in northern Ontario, + expensive hotels.

Take the bus and a backpack with a tent. Take a hotel as needed to wash. People travel the World like this.

The point you are missing is that if you want something - there's always a way. Motivation.

Say what you want about joe, but there is a TV show and he KNOWS he was being filmed on camera. YELLING at new FO's on a flight with passengers? What happened to CRM?

If he conducts himself like that he's the one who still has a lot to learn!

Your opinion is based on watching a Reality TV show - it's not a documentary. You're not the only one on this site who can't tell the difference.

Joe is an old school type Boss - he expects a lot from his employees. His job is to keep the company running - not to provide a safe space. Nothing wrong with hard work either.

Still a few old school Bosses around. Some of the best teachers you'll ever find imho.

Working on the ramp is an apprenticeship - you are being evaluated to see if you are worth investing money in. When I worked there nobody paid for a rating.

I probably have 1000 hours as Joe's co-pilot ( I really should add that up ). Since he knew how I flew I got to build PIC time on the C206/Be95/C402.

I got a left seat PPC on the DC-3 with 2200TT. I have 1900 hours as Captain.

Joe didn't have to do any of that. To say I owe the man my career is an understatement.

The experience I got there has kept me out of trouble over the years flying large jets - one thing the DC-3 teaches are stick and rudder skills.

When I left Joe gave me a 2 page letter of reference - which I never asked for.

As I stated previously - you couldn't be more wrong about Joe.

[lostav8r]

Don't know why I bother....

Car insurance is 500 a month for someone with no accidents or tickets, training is $1000 a lesson, that debt needs to be paid off eventually.

Sell the Camry - get a bike, walk or take public transport like a lot of other people. Every 2 months the savings on your insurance cover 1 lesson.

People are suggesting to drive across canada for a road trip when gas is well into $2 a litre in northern Ontario, + expensive hotels.

Take the bus and a backpack with a tent. Take a hotel as needed to wash. People travel the World like this.

The point you are missing is that if you want something - there's always a way. Motivation.

Say what you want about joe, but there is a TV show and he KNOWS he was being filmed on camera. YELLING at new FO's on a flight with passengers? What happened to CRM?

If he conducts himself like that he's the one who still has a lot to learn!

Your opinion is based on watching a Reality TV show - it's not a documentary. You're not the only one on this site who can't tell the difference.

Joe is an old school type Boss - he expects a lot from his employees. His job is to keep the company running - not to provide a safe space. Nothing wrong with hard work either.

Still a few old school Bosses around. Some of the best teachers you'll ever find imho.

Working on the ramp is an apprenticeship - you are being evaluated to see if you are worth investing money in. When I worked there nobody paid for a rating.

I probably have 1000 hours as Joe's co-pilot ( I really should add that up ). Since he knew how I flew I got to build PIC time on the C206/Be95/C402.

I got a left seat PPC on the DC-3 with 2200TT. I have 1900 hours as Captain.

Joe didn't have to do any of that. To say I owe the man my career is an understatement.

The experience I got there has kept me out of trouble over the years flying large jets - one thing the DC-3 teaches are stick and rudder skills.

When I left Joe gave me a 2 page letter of reference - which I never asked for.

As I stated previously - you couldn't be more wrong about Joe.

I honestly can’t tell if you’re trolling if you suggest that people walk along the trans Canada?


You can say it was reality TV but how do you expect people to get an idea if they would want to work for somebody like Joe? That’s how he chooses to portray himself that’s entirely on him!

And I don’t get this psycho idea that only seems to exist in Flying where people aren’t trustworthy unless they’re willing to work is your slave? There are dozens of white collar, professions where you effectively get the keys to the Castle after maybe a few weeks of shadowing the person whose job you’re going to do!

Do we make accountants clean toilets?

I have actually worked in multiple environments that are basically a doppelgänger of the show! There are people who will Only respond if you yell at them and basically every business that size in Canada is incredibly mismanaged, but they aren’t successful because of that attitude it’s honestly despite that!

If you treat your people with respect, understand that they’re going to make mistakes, They will give you the world! Or you can operate with yelling and fear and pray that if they @#$! anything up, they’re not going to be too scared to tell you! Have your pic I’ve worked in both environments and I can say which one is more successful when there’s actually competition

[digits_]

Don't know why I bother....

Car insurance is 500 a month for someone with no accidents or tickets, training is $1000 a lesson, that debt needs to be paid off eventually.

Sell the Camry - get a bike, walk or take public transport like a lot of other people. Every 2 months the savings on your insurance cover 1 lesson.

People are suggesting to drive across canada for a road trip when gas is well into $2 a litre in northern Ontario, + expensive hotels.

Take the bus and a backpack with a tent. Take a hotel as needed to wash. People travel the World like this.

The point you are missing is that if you want something - there's always a way. Motivation.

Say what you want about joe, but there is a TV show and he KNOWS he was being filmed on camera. YELLING at new FO's on a flight with passengers? What happened to CRM?

If he conducts himself like that he's the one who still has a lot to learn!

Your opinion is based on watching a Reality TV show - it's not a documentary. You're not the only one on this site who can't tell the difference.

Joe is an old school type Boss - he expects a lot from his employees. His job is to keep the company running - not to provide a safe space. Nothing wrong with hard work either.

Still a few old school Bosses around. Some of the best teachers you'll ever find imho.

Working on the ramp is an apprenticeship - you are being evaluated to see if you are worth investing money in. When I worked there nobody paid for a rating.

I probably have 1000 hours as Joe's co-pilot ( I really should add that up ). Since he knew how I flew I got to build PIC time on the C206/Be95/C402.

I got a left seat PPC on the DC-3 with 2200TT. I have 1900 hours as Captain.

Joe didn't have to do any of that. To say I owe the man my career is an understatement.

The experience I got there has kept me out of trouble over the years flying large jets - one thing the DC-3 teaches are stick and rudder skills.

When I left Joe gave me a 2 page letter of reference - which I never asked for.

As I stated previously - you couldn't be more wrong about Joe.

I honestly can’t tell if you’re trolling if you suggest that people walk along the trans Canada?


You can say it was reality TV but how do you expect people to get an idea if they would want to work for somebody like Joe? That’s how he chooses to portray himself that’s entirely on him!

And I don’t get this psycho idea that only seems to exist in Flying where people aren’t trustworthy unless they’re willing to work is your slave? There are dozens of white collar, professions where you effectively get the keys to the Castle after maybe a few weeks of shadowing the person whose job you’re going to do!

Do we make accountants clean toilets?

I have actually worked in multiple environments that are basically a doppelgänger of the show! There are people who will Only respond if you yell at them and basically every business that size in Canada is incredibly mismanaged, but they aren’t successful because of that attitude it’s honestly despite that!

If you treat your people with respect, understand that they’re going to make mistakes, They will give you the world! Or you can operate with yelling and fear and pray that if they @#$! anything up, they’re not going to be too scared to tell you! Have your pic I’ve worked in both environments and I can say which one is more successful when there’s actually competition

You're both right but talking about different things. Eric (and some other posters above) are describing how it used to be, partially still is, and likely should not be.

You are describing how it could be, and what it is slowly evolving towards. You can wait a few decades and things might have improved, or maybe not. A few years of aviation downturns and lots of the smaller nice companies will quickly fall back into their old habits. It really is driven by supply and demand.

You can try to effect change once you're in the top half of the food chain. Today, you don't have any influence whatsoever. The only winning move is not to play. But you already paid your entry ticket.

Regardless on how you would like to proceed, know that most pilots will agree with you, but will also hate to fly with you if you bring it up every flight.

Once you move up, you'll also find that very few management people, or even TC for that matter, care about the grey areas. Unless it's pitch black with an undisputable paper trail, things will not change.

You wrote about your troubles with your IFR training. That's relatively easy to fix, especially in comparison to the issues mentioned above. If you're unhappy accepting that, it might be best to consider alternatives. But know that those alternatives also have their dark sides. It's just easier to switch companies, as most sectors have much more options than aviation.

[lostav8r]

Don't know why I bother....



Sell the Camry - get a bike, walk or take public transport like a lot of other people. Every 2 months the savings on your insurance cover 1 lesson.



Take the bus and a backpack with a tent. Take a hotel as needed to wash. People travel the World like this.

The point you are missing is that if you want something - there's always a way. Motivation.



Your opinion is based on watching a Reality TV show - it's not a documentary. You're not the only one on this site who can't tell the difference.

Joe is an old school type Boss - he expects a lot from his employees. His job is to keep the company running - not to provide a safe space. Nothing wrong with hard work either.

Still a few old school Bosses around. Some of the best teachers you'll ever find imho.

Working on the ramp is an apprenticeship - you are being evaluated to see if you are worth investing money in. When I worked there nobody paid for a rating.

I probably have 1000 hours as Joe's co-pilot ( I really should add that up ). Since he knew how I flew I got to build PIC time on the C206/Be95/C402.

I got a left seat PPC on the DC-3 with 2200TT. I have 1900 hours as Captain.

Joe didn't have to do any of that. To say I owe the man my career is an understatement.

The experience I got there has kept me out of trouble over the years flying large jets - one thing the DC-3 teaches are stick and rudder skills.

When I left Joe gave me a 2 page letter of reference - which I never asked for.

As I stated previously - you couldn't be more wrong about Joe.

I honestly can’t tell if you’re trolling if you suggest that people walk along the trans Canada?


You can say it was reality TV but how do you expect people to get an idea if they would want to work for somebody like Joe? That’s how he chooses to portray himself that’s entirely on him!

And I don’t get this psycho idea that only seems to exist in Flying where people aren’t trustworthy unless they’re willing to work is your slave? There are dozens of white collar, professions where you effectively get the keys to the Castle after maybe a few weeks of shadowing the person whose job you’re going to do!

Do we make accountants clean toilets?

I have actually worked in multiple environments that are basically a doppelgänger of the show! There are people who will Only respond if you yell at them and basically every business that size in Canada is incredibly mismanaged, but they aren’t successful because of that attitude it’s honestly despite that!

If you treat your people with respect, understand that they’re going to make mistakes, They will give you the world! Or you can operate with yelling and fear and pray that if they @#$! anything up, they’re not going to be too scared to tell you! Have your pic I’ve worked in both environments and I can say which one is more successful when there’s actually competition

You're both right but talking about different things. Eric (and some other posters above) are describing how it used to be, partially still is, and likely should not be.

You are describing how it could be, and what it is slowly evolving towards. You can wait a few decades and things might have improved, or maybe not. A few years of aviation downturns and lots of the smaller nice companies will quickly fall back into their old habits. It really is driven by supply and demand.

You can try to effect change once you're in the top half of the food chain. Today, you don't have any influence whatsoever. The only winning move is not to play. But you already paid your entry ticket.

Regardless on how you would like to proceed, know that most pilots will agree with you, but will also hate to fly with you if you bring it up every flight.

Once you move up, you'll also find that very few management people, or even TC for that matter, care about the grey areas. Unless it's pitch black with an undisputable paper trail, things will not change.

You wrote about your troubles with your IFR training. That's relatively easy to fix, especially in comparison to the issues mentioned above. If you're unhappy accepting that, it might be best to consider alternatives. But know that those alternatives also have their dark sides. It's just easier to switch companies, as most sectors have much more options than aviation.

I think you're spot on with everything!

Sorry to be heated at times, like I said I personally worked in companies with a culture of fear, and it's really frustrating to think safety critical companies have a lot of players who run that way.

[altiplano]

You need to shop around… I pay $2100/yr for a 1 year old truck.

Right?!

I've got a newish $100K truck and pay about $1400/yr.

$6K/year? What are you driving?

Toyota camry!

You're doing something wrong. What are you carrying in liability? $500 million? Champagne and caviar with your BMW rental in the event of an accident? Seriously, review your policy, cut out whatever fat you got in there or go somewhere else.

Then get to work on that accounting diploma. Sounds like that's got the right vibe for your expectations. You don't have a license, you aren't even in the business, and somehow you feel entitled and hard done by already. That attitude and get you in the front door. To make it in this job you have to be ready to grind and work and earn it. That's what it takes whether you like it or not. You're not walking in to anything, you're owned nothing.