Flair Pilots Better Starting & Top End Pay Now?!

[troisrivieres]

Clearly the Reps aren't that busy. I mean look at my YUL Capt Rep.

June 110 hrs
May 90 hrs
April 100 hrs
March 94 hrs
February 88 hrs

[AllthatJazz]

Clearly the Reps aren't that busy. I mean look at my YUL Capt Rep.

June 110 hrs
May 90 hrs
April 100 hrs
March 94 hrs
February 88 hrs

How useless are these guys. Can't implement a contract while busy doing VO. When can we vote them out?

[FelixGustof]

So are your union reps the highest paid pilots of the whole group?

I can see why they liked this deal!

[Nick678]

Clearly the Reps aren't that busy. I mean look at my YUL Capt Rep.

June 110 hrs
May 90 hrs
April 100 hrs
March 94 hrs
February 88 hrs

How useless are these guys. Can't implement a contract while busy doing VO. When can we vote them out?

I bet the ability to see their schedules will be removed. It’s what happened at jazz after people started complaining their reps were doing too much VO

[stall]

So are your union reps the highest paid pilots of the whole group?

I can see why they liked this deal!

While I think it is important to give the union the resources to get the work done, it is pretty clear this is abuse of the system. Hopefully we get some new leadership before negotiations. Pretty clear these guys are not for the greater cause. They are in it for themselves.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Clearly the Reps aren't that busy. I mean look at my YUL Capt Rep.

June 110 hrs
May 90 hrs
April 100 hrs
March 94 hrs
February 88 hrs

How useless are these guys. Can't implement a contract while busy doing VO. When can we vote them out?

I bet the ability to see their schedules will be removed. It’s what happened at jazz after people started complaining their reps were doing too much VO

you can't block everywhere, there is way to see everything

[pitottubey]

Just reading this thread as a pilot for a different airline in Canada, it really doesn't seem too appealing to come to AC. Yes you guys have the best contract, but at what cost? Is it good enough of a contract to make you all the happiest? Doesn't seem like it.

Anyways, I wish you all the best. Cheers

[18675309]

Just reading this thread as a pilot for a different airline in Canada, it really doesn't seem too appealing to come to AC. Yes you guys have the best contract, but at what cost? Is it good enough of a contract to make you all the happiest? Doesn't seem like it.

Anyways, I wish you all the best. Cheers

Is working at Air Canada Perfect? No.
Is the contract excellent or implementation going as it should. No
Do I let it bother me when I’m at home? No.
Has the contract allowed me to buy my first home, have a nice wedding, drive nice vehicles and do whatever I pretty well want? Yes.
In no means am I a “company man” but I can’t complain at the life it allows me to live working here.
For reference. Year 3 narrow body FO, bids reserve, haven’t worked a weekend in over 2 years.
This place is what you make of it.

[TheBremen]

Just reading this thread as a pilot for a different airline in Canada, it really doesn't seem too appealing to come to AC. Yes you guys have the best contract, but at what cost? Is it good enough of a contract to make you all the happiest? Doesn't seem like it.

Anyways, I wish you all the best. Cheers

In Canada currently, there are two outfits for PAX flying: AC & WestJet. If you're coming out of school and are aligned with the concept of delayed gratification, these are your only real options. It would be crass to say Air Canada will never disappear, but in the current landscape, it's much more likely to see a future of Red and Teal than Porter and Transat blue.

What about all the defunct airlines of years gone by: Wardair, EPA, Nordair, Transair, Quebecair, Nationair, Canadian, CP, PWA, Maritime Central Airways, NWT, and more recently: Harmony, CanJet, Jetsgo, Sunwing, Lynx, Canada 3000, KFC, Royal, Skyservice, Zoom.

I think it's fair to say that at points in time, pilots from any of those airlines thought, "I have it better—I'm based at home, have more days off, take home more $, and have a better contract." But in the same breath, it's fair to say that those same pilots, during mergers, bankruptcies, and liquidations, thought, "I sure wish I was at TCA/AC."

It's not a matter of whether there is a better place to work today, October 2nd, 2026. Surely somewhere might work better for you, might pay more, have a better contract, or mean no commute. It's a matter of whether there is a better option to work over a career spanning decades.

[pitottubey]

I mean don't get me wrong I agree job security is very important. One of the most important things. But half the airline's you listed, the pilots didn't lose their jobs or seniority, they simply were merged with another airline. Funny enough you listed KFC as defunct and from what I can tell from my research they still exist. Today everything is ALPA and there's specific merger processes to honour everyone's seniority. So a merger wouldn't be my concern, rather just a complete folding of my company.

You mention AC and WJ being the only heavyweight giants in Canada that are strong enough to reliably last the test of time, I think that's quickly becoming 3 with the rise of Porter.

[Man_in_the_sky]

I mean don't get me wrong I agree job security is very important. One of the most important things. But half the airline's you listed, the pilots didn't lose their jobs or seniority, they simply were merged with another airline. Funny enough you listed KFC as defunct and from what I can tell from my research they still exist. Today everything is ALPA and there's specific merger processes to honour everyone's seniority. So a merger wouldn't be my concern, rather just a complete folding of my company.

You mention AC and WJ being the only heavyweight giants in Canada that are strong enough to reliably last the test of time, I think that's quickly becoming 3 with the rise of Porter.

So if tomorrow your little cousin got an offer from both AC and Flair, you'd suggest him Flair cause he will make more money in the first few years ? and count on a ALPA merger if the company ( When the company ) fails ?

[TheBremen]

I mean don't get me wrong I agree job security is very important. One of the most important things. But half the airline's you listed, the pilots didn't lose their jobs or seniority, they simply were merged with another airline. Funny enough you listed KFC as defunct and from what I can tell from my research they still exist. Today everything is ALPA and there's specific merger processes to honour everyone's seniority. So a merger wouldn't be my concern, rather just a complete folding of my company.

You mention AC and WJ being the only heavyweight giants in Canada that are strong enough to reliably last the test of time, I think that's quickly becoming 3 with the rise of Porter.

“Simply merged” takes a lot away from the actualities of the situation. I would be interested in hearing more specifically the impact on the examples listed below and, more importantly, what happened to the individual employees and pilots who worked for the airline that was ultimately acquired.
I’ll concede the point regarding KFC, but my comments are specifically in the context of the DC-10 operation. In that case, the acquisition effectively shattered the possibility that they will ever operate heavies again.

Some historical context regarding mergers and ALPA would also be prudent. Historically, DFR lawsuits have been filed in connection with many of these mergers. There are numerous examples of mergers and acquisitions that went sideways, including Pan Am–National (1981), FedEx–Flying Tigers (1990), CALPA–Air Canada and its connectors (1994), Continental (2014), American–TWA (2014), Eastern Airlines (1993), and, more recently, the proposed JetBlue–Alaska transaction, even though that merger ultimately did not occur.

Largely, the point I am making is that, when you consider the uncertainty surrounding a merger, restructuring, or liquidation, I suspect virtually every employee would rather have been in the position of someone working for Air Canada/TCA or the acquiring airline. There is a meaningful difference between being part of an organization that survives a transaction and being an employee whose career, seniority, equipment, or entire operation is fundamentally altered or eliminated by it.

Regarding Porter. It looks alot like sale-leasebacks of engines, aircraft, and other assets to generate cash to provide liquidity to continue operating. That strategy can only be sustained for so long. Eventually, on the date of the last aircraft delivery they need to be profitable and have enough forward looking cashflow to cover lenders, vendors, and ongoing operating costs. If the underlying operation is not profitable by that point, that liquidity can disappear very quickly. Unfortunately for Porter, the timing of the decline in U.S. travel is particularly difficult. When that is combined with high crude prices, the pressure compounds each quarter as the company moves closer to its final aircraft deliveries. At some point, the ability to fund the operation through asset monetization runs out, and the underlying economics have to stand on their own.

Again the point I am making is largely around long term career growth, earnings, security.

[pitottubey]

I mean don't get me wrong I agree job security is very important. One of the most important things. But half the airline's you listed, the pilots didn't lose their jobs or seniority, they simply were merged with another airline. Funny enough you listed KFC as defunct and from what I can tell from my research they still exist. Today everything is ALPA and there's specific merger processes to honour everyone's seniority. So a merger wouldn't be my concern, rather just a complete folding of my company.

You mention AC and WJ being the only heavyweight giants in Canada that are strong enough to reliably last the test of time, I think that's quickly becoming 3 with the rise of Porter.

So if tomorrow your little cousin got an offer from both AC and Flair, you'd suggest him Flair cause he will make more money in the first few years ? and count on a ALPA merger if the company ( When the company ) fails ?

No that specific situation obviously I would recommend AC.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I mean don't get me wrong I agree job security is very important. One of the most important things. But half the airline's you listed, the pilots didn't lose their jobs or seniority, they simply were merged with another airline. Funny enough you listed KFC as defunct and from what I can tell from my research they still exist. Today everything is ALPA and there's specific merger processes to honour everyone's seniority. So a merger wouldn't be my concern, rather just a complete folding of my company.

You mention AC and WJ being the only heavyweight giants in Canada that are strong enough to reliably last the test of time, I think that's quickly becoming 3 with the rise of Porter.

Regarding Porter. It looks alot like sale-leasebacks of engines, aircraft, and other assets to generate cash to provide liquidity to continue operating. That strategy can only be sustained for so long. Eventually, on the date of the last aircraft delivery they need to be profitable and have enough forward looking cashflow to cover lenders, vendors, and ongoing operating costs. If the underlying operation is not profitable by that point, that liquidity can disappear very quickly. Unfortunately for Porter, the timing of the decline in U.S. travel is particularly difficult. When that is combined with high crude prices, the pressure compounds each quarter as the company moves closer to its final aircraft deliveries. At some point, the ability to fund the operation through asset monetization runs out, and the underlying economics have to stand on their own.

Every flight I’ve flown to the US recently has been more than plenty packed to make a dollar.

[Tbayer2021]

I mean don't get me wrong I agree job security is very important. One of the most important things. But half the airline's you listed, the pilots didn't lose their jobs or seniority, they simply were merged with another airline. Funny enough you listed KFC as defunct and from what I can tell from my research they still exist. Today everything is ALPA and there's specific merger processes to honour everyone's seniority. So a merger wouldn't be my concern, rather just a complete folding of my company.

You mention AC and WJ being the only heavyweight giants in Canada that are strong enough to reliably last the test of time, I think that's quickly becoming 3 with the rise of Porter.

Regarding Porter. It looks alot like sale-leasebacks of engines, aircraft, and other assets to generate cash to provide liquidity to continue operating. That strategy can only be sustained for so long. Eventually, on the date of the last aircraft delivery they need to be profitable and have enough forward looking cashflow to cover lenders, vendors, and ongoing operating costs. If the underlying operation is not profitable by that point, that liquidity can disappear very quickly. Unfortunately for Porter, the timing of the decline in U.S. travel is particularly difficult. When that is combined with high crude prices, the pressure compounds each quarter as the company moves closer to its final aircraft deliveries. At some point, the ability to fund the operation through asset monetization runs out, and the underlying economics have to stand on their own.

Every flight I’ve flown to the US recently has been more than plenty packed to make a dollar.

Don't confuse loads with margin. Example, if you take a look at Transat's earning calls, they've never had issues with loads. But they can't seem to make a dollar. Same thing with Lynx and Canada Jetlines. Knew people that worked there and they all though everything was great since every flight was full or just about.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Regarding Porter. It looks alot like sale-leasebacks of engines, aircraft, and other assets to generate cash to provide liquidity to continue operating. That strategy can only be sustained for so long. Eventually, on the date of the last aircraft delivery they need to be profitable and have enough forward looking cashflow to cover lenders, vendors, and ongoing operating costs. If the underlying operation is not profitable by that point, that liquidity can disappear very quickly. Unfortunately for Porter, the timing of the decline in U.S. travel is particularly difficult. When that is combined with high crude prices, the pressure compounds each quarter as the company moves closer to its final aircraft deliveries. At some point, the ability to fund the operation through asset monetization runs out, and the underlying economics have to stand on their own.

Every flight I’ve flown to the US recently has been more than plenty packed to make a dollar.

Don't confuse loads with margin. Example, if you take a look at Transat's earning calls, they've never had issues with loads. But they can't seem to make a dollar. Same thing with Lynx and Canada Jetlines. Knew people that worked there and they all though everything was great since every flight was full or just about.

Fair point. But I probably could assume that the people that looked at this plane decided if it could make a buck on these routes also.
Jet lines was way different with 4 (maybe, I can’t remember) , and lynx had like 9 planes at best. Way different operations. I remember booking a flair ticket and boarding jetlines. I don’t think this is what porter is doing

[Tbayer2021]

Every flight I’ve flown to the US recently has been more than plenty packed to make a dollar.

Don't confuse loads with margin. Example, if you take a look at Transat's earning calls, they've never had issues with loads. But they can't seem to make a dollar. Same thing with Lynx and Canada Jetlines. Knew people that worked there and they all though everything was great since every flight was full or just about.

Fair point. But I probably could assume that the people that looked at this plane decided if it could make a buck on these routes also.
Jet lines was way different with 4 (maybe, I can’t remember) , and lynx had like 9 planes at best. Way different operations. I remember booking a flair ticket and boarding jetlines. I don’t think this is what porter is doing

My point is simply that loads are not an indication of how well a company is doing financially. You point at the fact that those operations were much smaller and I assume you're alluding to economies of scale? Fair, but Spirit didn't have a problem filling airplanes either. In Porter's case we simply don't know because their finances are not public and loads are just not a good meassure of profitability. You can fill any planes with cheap enough tickets.