Our flight training unit has been required to insert all the emergencies from the POH into our checlists. This requires a pilot lost in cloud to head either east or west and set up a shallow decent. I work just west of the Rockies. Lets find someone at TC who will want to fly west in a gentle decent into the mountains? Not me!!
I know Cat will put an engine shut down in a twin on this list.
Lets get this list together an teach TC how dangerous they are becoming in their ivory tower, making rules in the office that have no part in our safe flying.
Unsafe requirements by transport.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
WTF?
What kind of POH specifies the direction and descent or climb rate for inadvertent entry into cloud? What kind of pilot reads the checklist after inadvertent entry into cloud?
I wouldn't put that in the checklist if my life depended on it (or a potential headbutt with TC) - you're dealing with some serious liability issues if one of your students piles up an airplane after following dangerous advice. Not to mention that it's just not a safe recommendation to make.
I always thought TCs people recommended the 180 degree level turn...which no doubt gives the VFR pilot the best chance of exiting the situation alive. Setting up a descent in this situation (or any extra attitude changes) is simply asking for a spiral dive. Unbelievable. And head East or West? WTF! Don't get me started!
What kind of POH specifies the direction and descent or climb rate for inadvertent entry into cloud? What kind of pilot reads the checklist after inadvertent entry into cloud?
I wouldn't put that in the checklist if my life depended on it (or a potential headbutt with TC) - you're dealing with some serious liability issues if one of your students piles up an airplane after following dangerous advice. Not to mention that it's just not a safe recommendation to make.
I always thought TCs people recommended the 180 degree level turn...which no doubt gives the VFR pilot the best chance of exiting the situation alive. Setting up a descent in this situation (or any extra attitude changes) is simply asking for a spiral dive. Unbelievable. And head East or West? WTF! Don't get me started!
Ronly, what kind of aircraft has a POH that states that?
It is a good thing to have emergencies on a checklist for quick reference. Print them on the back of the existing one or add a seperate EMERGENCIES page but have them all together and make sure they are realistic ones.
It is a good thing to have emergencies on a checklist for quick reference. Print them on the back of the existing one or add a seperate EMERGENCIES page but have them all together and make sure they are realistic ones.
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
Agree. Stick to conventional stuff. 180 degree turn. Don't involve climbs or descends along with the turning manoeuvre. First one, then the other.Pugster wrote:WTF?
What kind of POH specifies the direction and descent or climb rate for inadvertent entry into cloud? What kind of pilot reads the checklist after inadvertent entry into cloud?
I wouldn't put that in the checklist if my life depended on it (or a potential headbutt with TC) - you're dealing with some serious liability issues if one of your students piles up an airplane after following dangerous advice. Not to mention that it's just not a safe recommendation to make.
I always thought TCs people recommended the 180 degree level turn...which no doubt gives the VFR pilot the best chance of exiting the situation alive. Setting up a descent in this situation (or any extra attitude changes) is simply asking for a spiral dive. Unbelievable. And head East or West? WTF! Don't get me started!
Timing is everything.
You know I dont like to get personal on these things , (well except for harassing TC guy, but thats a CARS requirement) but I just read some of RONLYs comments about engine shut downs on another thread.....so..
I am not sure whether you are a troll or an idiot, but if your flying an airplane perhaps you should give some thought to a career change before you hurt or kill someone else .
No where have I ever heard of descending if you inadvertantly enter a cloud...
I am not sure whether you are a troll or an idiot, but if your flying an airplane perhaps you should give some thought to a career change before you hurt or kill someone else .
No where have I ever heard of descending if you inadvertantly enter a cloud...
Dont get me wrong this is not what i teach. TC has REQUIRED us to print and install this stuff in our checklists. I'm at home this morning so i dont have the page number to quote but the recomendation is in a 1970's C150 manual. I teach based on TC flight instructor manual and teach better controll and thought processes. IT IS TC that has required us to add this to our lists, our representative in Calgary has been informed: she just tells us the checklists (all of them) must be put in the checklists. It makes for a small book.!! I'm not shure who at TC wants a pilot lost in clouds to start trying to find page "10" and start reading instead of flying. We probably would not put unsafe/unusable checklists in buttt the TC auditors have listed it as a deficiency in our program. If we/you are "caught" not complying with these TC findings and deficiencies the third time the findings go straight to enforcement. Yes we are being threatened by TC and must comply, safe , reasonable, or other. My ORIGINAL questione asked if anyone had knowledge of other unsafe practices or requirements by TC NOT if we are teaching them!
Thanks for the personal slam, it seems as if many of the comments to the threads, in all forums, are often based on what people think or other emotional responses( because its easier) as opposed to facts and physics.
you only have to go back to the full flap Xwind landing thread to see all the emotion and not much thought. Get a grip I'm trying to find the dangerous things listed as requirements so we/I can stick TC's nose in it!
Thanks for the personal slam, it seems as if many of the comments to the threads, in all forums, are often based on what people think or other emotional responses( because its easier) as opposed to facts and physics.
you only have to go back to the full flap Xwind landing thread to see all the emotion and not much thought. Get a grip I'm trying to find the dangerous things listed as requirements so we/I can stick TC's nose in it!
A problem you're going to have here Ronly, is what you may think of as dangerous, I, or someone else may find as safe. eg. I think it's really stupid to turn off the fuel supply to an engine in flight. You feel, it's safe. Same for actual engine shut-downs in flight....really, really dumb! But TC disagrees with me. Ask them about a certain Twin Otter in the YHM area, many years ago in which the (TC) lost at least two, and I think three of their own people, after shutting (feathering) a prop in flight....training, dont you know? The idea of reprinting a POH, and requireing it to be used as a check list is right up there on my stupid list! The check list on a 150 should be just the items you can check at a glance, because the pilot is "just hanging on" as it is! You (if you are the CFI) should go over the head of your local "rep", because that is just a silly requirement?
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Cat Driver
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Doc, I knew one of the TC guys who survived Fidel Castros prisons only to die in a Twin Commanche bravely performing an engine out requirement for his own government....makes one wonder about the mentality in the insulated offices of TCCA in Ottawa. 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Although I am sure they did give you the references during the Audit exit meeting and follow up notification of finding(s).Ronly wrote:Dont get me wrong this is not what i teach. TC has REQUIRED us to print and install this stuff in our checklists. I'm at home this morning so i dont have the page number to quote but the recomendation is in a 1970's C150 manual. I teach based on TC flight instructor manual and teach better controll and thought processes. IT IS TC that has required us to add this to our lists, our representative in Calgary has been informed: she just tells us the checklists (all of them) must be put in the checklists. It makes for a small book.!! I'm not shure who at TC wants a pilot lost in clouds to start trying to find page "10" and start reading instead of flying. We probably would not put unsafe/unusable checklists in buttt the TC auditors have listed it as a deficiency in our program. If we/you are "caught" not complying with these TC findings and deficiencies the third time the findings go straight to enforcement. Yes we are being threatened by TC and must comply, safe , reasonable, or other. My ORIGINAL questione asked if anyone had knowledge of other unsafe practices or requirements by TC NOT if we are teaching them!
Here are the references in the CARs that would be applicable (given my interpretation of your situation).
Sounds pretty resonable to me. I think training aircarft need checklists.CARs 406.34 wrote:406.34 For the purpose of establishing safe aircraft operating procedures, a flight training unit that operates an aeroplane or a helicopter shall establish and make readily available to each flight crew member on board the aircraft the checklist referred to in Section 602.60 for each aircraft type that it operates.
Now, this particular regulation applies to all Canadian Registered Aircraft... I don't believe anyone has singled you out. Check around and see what other operators are using.CARs 602.60 wrote:(2) A checklist or placards referred to in paragraph (1)(a) shall enable the aircraft to be operated in normal, abnormal and emergency conditions and shall include
(a) a pre-start check;
(b) a pre-take-off check;
(c) a post-take-off check;
(d) a pre-landing check; and
(e) emergency procedures.
(3) Emergency procedures referred to in paragraph (2)(e) shall include
(a) emergency operation of fuel, hydraulic, electrical and mechanical systems, where applicable;
(b) emergency operation of instruments and controls, where applicable;
(c) engine inoperative procedures; and
(d) any other procedure that is necessary for aviation safety.
(4) Checks and emergency procedures referred to in subsections (2) and (3) shall be performed and followed where they are applicable.
As far as the "glide" scenario that you make reference to-- Cessna decided to put this in as an emergency procedure in their manual, not TC.
I would suggest that compliance in this matter is simple.
Good luck.
-Guy
Doc, no, I do not.Doc wrote:They lost their own people in that Twin Otter accident in YHM, doing the very same thing they now require of us? I think John Miller was one of them...I could be wrong...but I dont think so. TC Guy, this was before your time....but do you have any knowledge of it?
If I remember, I will take a look. Should be pretty easy to find. ASD has a thurough internal reporting system.
And Doc... like any other accident, I would suggest that there were factors other than just shutting down an engine.
It is a bit of an uphill battle here.
-Guy
Although I don't have the POH in front of me, I do remember this in some of the older Cessna aircraft.Pugster wrote:I wouldn't put that in the checklist if my life depended on it (or a potential headbutt with TC) - you're dealing with some serious liability issues if one of your students piles up an airplane after following dangerous advice. Not to mention that it's just not a safe recommendation to make.
If you are reprinting an emergency procedure from the POH, your liability shifts to the manufacturer. If you do not publish a procedure, and a case could be made that it would have saved lives, then you are liable by not including it as required by the CARs.
Before the inevitable TC bashing begins, I would suggest that TC has nothing to do with the process if it goes that far.
The lawers will assign liability. The case could drag on for years in court. Eventually, it will be settled-- and if you have done your homework, then you should be fine.
-Guy
TC Guy wrote:
Before the inevitable TC bashing begins, I would suggest that TC has nothing to do with the process if it goes that far.
For crying out loud, if your going to anticipate it as inevitable, and accept it, you are taking all the fun out of the whole process...
I am still a little fuzzy. Are you saying that Cessna actually expects people to descend out the bottom of a cloud? If they do I owe Ronly an apology on this one.
As far as checlists go, seems to me the military used to call them "aid memoires", not in keeping with offical bilinguilism, but because they were suppossed to be just that. If you read some of the old military AM's , you will see they are pretty common sense. Seems like today we have a ten minute checklist procedure to deal with emergencies like catastrophic decompression.
Before the inevitable TC bashing begins, I would suggest that TC has nothing to do with the process if it goes that far.
For crying out loud, if your going to anticipate it as inevitable, and accept it, you are taking all the fun out of the whole process...
I am still a little fuzzy. Are you saying that Cessna actually expects people to descend out the bottom of a cloud? If they do I owe Ronly an apology on this one.
As far as checlists go, seems to me the military used to call them "aid memoires", not in keeping with offical bilinguilism, but because they were suppossed to be just that. If you read some of the old military AM's , you will see they are pretty common sense. Seems like today we have a ten minute checklist procedure to deal with emergencies like catastrophic decompression.
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Cat Driver
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I have used a military memory check list for decades, it covers every aircraft that I have flown.
I had a real headache with the crews in Holland insisting that the CAA demands that we write and follow a set of checks that are so long and in depth I fall asleep reading the things.
So I said OK I don't give a f.ck what you guys do after I leave but as long as I am responsible for your safety and the safety of this airplane we are going to do things my way.
Anyhow I humored them during land based engine starts and got caught up on my needed sleep while they like automated robots wnet through their check list for engine starts.
Finally after they received their type ratings we started carrying passengers on sight seeing flights with water landings included.
The first time we landed and tied off from two big boats and drifted down wind while we waited for the passengers to do whatever in fuc. they were doing everything went well until we got the passengers back on board and the line holding the airplane to one of the boats was cast lose.
Well things had changed such as the wind direction and the pilot under training grabbed the check list to start the engines.
Anyhow to make a long story short I took the check list and stuffed it in the seat map holder and quickly started the engines and got it moving away from the shallow water the wind was drifting us into.
That was the end of their arguing about always reading check lists when other more pressing issues needed to be looked after, such as drifting onto rocks while you read how to start an engine from a written check list.
Before some of you know it all types start jumping all over me about written check lists I am not saying that written check lists are not necessary, what I am saying is you can only dumb down how to operate an airplane so much before eventually something really gets out of hand and common sense and direct action is the only thing that will keep you from becoming another incident or accident statistic.
Cat
I had a real headache with the crews in Holland insisting that the CAA demands that we write and follow a set of checks that are so long and in depth I fall asleep reading the things.
So I said OK I don't give a f.ck what you guys do after I leave but as long as I am responsible for your safety and the safety of this airplane we are going to do things my way.
Anyhow I humored them during land based engine starts and got caught up on my needed sleep while they like automated robots wnet through their check list for engine starts.
Finally after they received their type ratings we started carrying passengers on sight seeing flights with water landings included.
The first time we landed and tied off from two big boats and drifted down wind while we waited for the passengers to do whatever in fuc. they were doing everything went well until we got the passengers back on board and the line holding the airplane to one of the boats was cast lose.
Well things had changed such as the wind direction and the pilot under training grabbed the check list to start the engines.
Anyhow to make a long story short I took the check list and stuffed it in the seat map holder and quickly started the engines and got it moving away from the shallow water the wind was drifting us into.
That was the end of their arguing about always reading check lists when other more pressing issues needed to be looked after, such as drifting onto rocks while you read how to start an engine from a written check list.
Before some of you know it all types start jumping all over me about written check lists I am not saying that written check lists are not necessary, what I am saying is you can only dumb down how to operate an airplane so much before eventually something really gets out of hand and common sense and direct action is the only thing that will keep you from becoming another incident or accident statistic.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I coulnd't agree more.Cat Driver wrote:Before some of you know it all types start jumping all over me about written check lists I am not saying that written check lists are not necessary, what I am saying is you can only dumb down how to operate an airplane so much before eventually something really gets out of hand and common sense and direct action is the only thing that will keep you from becoming another incident or accident statistic.
The problem is, you can't write a regulation to cover common sense, so written checklists should be provided and used appropriately (except when it is not safe to do so). Checlists and SOP can only cover so much. The rest is up to the pilot.
-Guy
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Cat Driver
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For what ever it is worth I do some flying with Arke Fly who operate B767-300ER's.
Their written check list that we use is shorter than the one that was in the Cessna 150 that I had bought to use in the flying school that never got off the ground.
When I questioned the Class 1 instructor who ground out the check list why there were so many items on the check list his answer was to satisfy TC.
Anyhow in that I will not need to answer to any of this stuff anymore I guess it really does not concern me, except I find it weird to say the least.
Cat
Their written check list that we use is shorter than the one that was in the Cessna 150 that I had bought to use in the flying school that never got off the ground.
When I questioned the Class 1 instructor who ground out the check list why there were so many items on the check list his answer was to satisfy TC.
Anyhow in that I will not need to answer to any of this stuff anymore I guess it really does not concern me, except I find it weird to say the least.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
TC Guy, it was a while ago, no doubt, but the story at the time was more or less this: They were practicing single engine procedures in the TC Twin Otter. One fuel lever was placed in the fuel off position, and the prop feathered. When the exercise was completed, during the restart, the fuel levers were "matched", but instead of bringing one lever forward, they retarded the one that was running. Unable to get a relight in time, they put the aircraft in a field, hitting a tree, and killing some onboard. The official report might vary, but that was pretty much the accepted version at the time. It will be interesting to hear back from you when you check into it at your end?
Either way.....we sure can see how this type of thing could (accurate or not) happen, when you have pilots who, after a mistake was made, trip over each other in their haste to prevent diaster? And, it makes a rather compelling argument against unnessary in flight shut downs?
Either way.....we sure can see how this type of thing could (accurate or not) happen, when you have pilots who, after a mistake was made, trip over each other in their haste to prevent diaster? And, it makes a rather compelling argument against unnessary in flight shut downs?
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Big Pistons Forever
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Ronly;
I suppose if this is in the POH then, as TC Guy rightfully put it, it's the manufacturer that is to blame for what appears to be a silly and dangerous recommendation. No bash to you intended - I remember when I was instructing how frustrating it was sometimes when it felt like the status quo was insisting that you teach something that wasn't necessarily in the students best interest. Just remember that it's your ass up there...and keeping it intact should be your first priority.
TC Guy;
Ya, the liability would probably be on the manufacturer, but an incident like that could be the end of your business. And I really hope that this doesn't turn into a TC bashing session; you guys get enough abuse for doing a sometimes thankless job - especially the folks in flight training. I've got a couple of friends in TC, and I can say 100% that I've walked away smarter and safer after every flight test or coffee I've had with either of them. However...
Would not including this emergency procedure in your checklist (or modifying it to a more modern, accepted practice) constitute a violation of the CARs? I can't remember in the CARs if it is clearly stated that every emergency procedure has to be copied verbatum out of the POH. In this case, could one not "adapt" it to reflect geography and the current knowledge on disorientation and spiral dives?
Happy new year, and don't let any negative comments about your employer keep you off this forum!
I suppose if this is in the POH then, as TC Guy rightfully put it, it's the manufacturer that is to blame for what appears to be a silly and dangerous recommendation. No bash to you intended - I remember when I was instructing how frustrating it was sometimes when it felt like the status quo was insisting that you teach something that wasn't necessarily in the students best interest. Just remember that it's your ass up there...and keeping it intact should be your first priority.
TC Guy;
Ya, the liability would probably be on the manufacturer, but an incident like that could be the end of your business. And I really hope that this doesn't turn into a TC bashing session; you guys get enough abuse for doing a sometimes thankless job - especially the folks in flight training. I've got a couple of friends in TC, and I can say 100% that I've walked away smarter and safer after every flight test or coffee I've had with either of them. However...
Would not including this emergency procedure in your checklist (or modifying it to a more modern, accepted practice) constitute a violation of the CARs? I can't remember in the CARs if it is clearly stated that every emergency procedure has to be copied verbatum out of the POH. In this case, could one not "adapt" it to reflect geography and the current knowledge on disorientation and spiral dives?
Happy new year, and don't let any negative comments about your employer keep you off this forum!
I don't know one operator that doesn't use their own checklist for normal operations. Interestingly enough, you had better make sure it includes the required items. I know of one such case where a flight training company is being sued for not having an item on a checklist (and, as far as I am aware, it is in the POH checklist). This item not being completed caused the death of several people in a light aeroplane.Pugster wrote:Would not including this emergency procedure in your checklist (or modifying it to a more modern, accepted practice) constitute a violation of the CARs? I can't remember in the CARs if it is clearly stated that every emergency procedure has to be copied verbatum out of the POH. In this case, could one not "adapt" it to reflect geography and the current knowledge on disorientation and spiral dives?
As far as emergency procedures are concerned, most companies in my experience use the manufacturer's checklists, if they exist.
-Guy
OK guys, help me out with this one as I totally confused. Am I to understand that if you develop own checklist it is a no no?
What about SOP's that may differ from the manufacturers', not only of th eac, but of FMS or other avionics?
Quite frankly, I dont usually pay much attention when people start banding around the 'liability' word, but this has caught my attention.
Someone want to explain to me (as you would a slightly slow four year old, so I will understand)
What about SOP's that may differ from the manufacturers', not only of th eac, but of FMS or other avionics?
Quite frankly, I dont usually pay much attention when people start banding around the 'liability' word, but this has caught my attention.
Someone want to explain to me (as you would a slightly slow four year old, so I will understand)
People can and do develop their own checklists. And SOP's.trey kule wrote:OK guys, help me out with this one as I totally confused. Am I to understand that if you develop own checklist it is a no no?
What about SOP's that may differ from the manufacturers', not only of th eac, but of FMS or other avionics?
Quite frankly, I dont usually pay much attention when people start banding around the 'liability' word, but this has caught my attention.
Someone want to explain to me (as you would a slightly slow four year old, so I will understand)
Remember that we are talking about light aircraft operations, and relatively inexperienced pilots.
Liability is huge in GA, beacuse the pockets aren't deep. Is Air France going to go out of business because of the Toronto incident? Of course not. How about air Southwest with their runway overrun that killed a young boy? Not likely.
In a small GA operation with a relatively simple aircraft, that may not be the case.
One thing that has been drilled into me since I joined TC is "due dilligence" in which the basic premis is that "what would a resonable person with the required level of experience do?" If they are found negligent... then liability becomes an issue.
I am no legal expert.
Not a good answer, but it is all I have. I will think more on it.
Remember... this is all my opinion. Do not take this as fact. There are much smarter people out there.
-Guy
Guy, you answered my question right here. Sounds to me like "due dilligence" allows for some minor interpretations of things such as the checklists where it is obvious it is in the interests of safety.TC Guy wrote:
One thing that has been drilled into me since I joined TC is "due dilligence" in which the basic premis is that "what would a resonable person with the required level of experience do?" If they are found negligent... then liability becomes an issue.
-Guy
That is my non-expert interpretation as well.Pugster wrote:Guy, you answered my question right here. Sounds to me like "due dilligence" allows for some minor interpretations of things such as the checklists where it is obvious it is in the interests of safety.TC Guy wrote:
One thing that has been drilled into me since I joined TC is "due dilligence" in which the basic premis is that "what would a resonable person with the required level of experience do?" If they are found negligent... then liability becomes an issue.
-Guy
The only fly in the ointment here is that some people will have differing opinions on the checklist and contents.
-Guy
