Hand Gun Ban

Wilbur · Post by **Wilbur** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:38 pm

JPC, my idealization about how chronic criminals should be imprisoned was based on the notion of locking them up and throwing away the key; whether through some new form of habitual offender legislation or mandatory sentencing. In that ideal scenario they would never be released.

In terms of what prisons are like, I have 25 years in the justice system and I'm currently employed in a senior supervisory/management role in corrections. As for my knowledge of maximum security prisons, I'll be running one at 15:00 this afternoon.

Regarding golf courses, Ferndale Institution in Mission, BC has/had a golf course, although I'm not sure if they finally bowed to public pressure and political optics and stopped the inmates from playing it.

The two greatest expenses in running prisons are the capital cost of construction, and staffing. A new 250 bed facility of typical current design with work, recreation and education program areas costs about $50M not including the land, and will have a service life of 30 to 50 years. Get rid of the ballfield, tennis courts, gym and other recreation areas and you can easily shave 20% off the cost. You then also don't need the staff to run those facilities at an annual cost of about $300K.

The living conditions in any prison built in the last 20 years are actually quite good, regardless of the security level. Maximum security inmates have all the perks of lower level Centres, except for items that can readily be made into weapons. In max facilities cells/rooms are typically about 8X10 with a bed, toilet, sink, desk, window, radio and TV. They open into a common area with dining tables, kitchenette, shower room, laundry room, TV lounge, and games room equiped with a pool table, fooseball, table tennis, and a variety of board games. Prison provides the vast majority of criminals with a much higher standard of living then they have "on the outs." And I can also assure you the facilities are much better than any CF barracks I have spent time in as a reserve officer during the past 30 years.

If prisons are in any way "hell holes," it is entirely because of how the inmates treat each other. Oh the irony! Criminals becoming the victims of crime. However, well run and disciplined prisons do not have a big problem with violence and peer victimization. The problem is greatest in those places where the inmates (known dysfunctional people) are given a role in the running of the Centre.

The greatest portion of health care costs for prisoners are caused by their lifestyles in the community; primarily excessive substance abuse. Recreation facilities in prison are not going to have any influence in reducing health care costs because the vast majority of stays are relatively short. Having a mostly sedentary lifestyle for a few months, or couple years even, is not going to cause health problems in the typical 20 something inmate.

Most, if not all, correctional jurisdictions in Canada offer their inmates a variety of rehabilitative programs that have been validated by independent research. They are effective at reducing recidivism by increasing the periods of time between offences, reducing the seriousness of offences, and decreasing the age at which most criminals give up their criminal lifestyle. A typical program package includes a motivational program, substance abuse, cognitive skills, violence prevention, anger management, spousal assault, and sex offender courses that are provided on the basis of individual risk-needs assessments. The are effective even when participation is forced. The biggest problem we have in delivering these programs is that sentences that are too short to complete the necessary courses. It therefore takes them more trips to prison to complete the programs they need to convince and enable them to "go straight." This means more needless victims of crime in the community.

LH touched on one key point in his post. The courts give a double, and now often triple credit, for time accused people spend in custody awaiting trial. The criminals all know this, and now often refuse bail or intentionally breach their conditions so that they will be remanded into custody. If they know they are facing a 12 month sentence, they will have themselves remanded pending trial, purposely delay and drag out the legal process, then walk into court 4 or 5 months later to plead guilty in exchange for a "time served" sentence. During their time on remand they don't participate in any rehabilitation programs and typically are committing their first offences within hours of their release. I have seen cases of their first robbery or theft occuring on the courthouse steps.

The fast money of the drug trade is the single biggest attraction for young people joining these gangs and packing guns. A drop in b-ball program in "the hood" is not going to compete effectively with the attraction of an 18 year old drug dealer driving around in his new, fully decked out Denali flashing gold and diamond jewellery. We tell kids not to get involved in drugs and gangs, but we allow the criminals to keep the proceeds of their drug dealing and give them sentences that they see as a cost of doing business and nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

If we want to get a handle on crime we need to increase policing levels and somewhat loosen the rules of evidence. The greatest deterent is certainty of apprehension. Criminals tend to not do crimes when they believe their is a high liklihood of getting caught and convicted. Second, we need to increase penalties to a level where professional criminals no longer see them as an acceptable cost of business. Thirdly, those criminals who do not seem fazed by being caught, or the severity of the penalty (habitual offenders), should be locked away forever in the most spartan (cost effective) conditions that are still humane.

People get too hung up on the spectacular murder and capitol punishment issues. Most murders occur in unique circumstances, and the offenders rarely re-offend after release. However, there are those for which the commission of murder or manslaughter is the culmination of a dedicated escalating life of crime; drug dealing, robberies, B&E's, violence, etc. 99% of these gang shootings across Canada fall into this category. If you want to stop these shootings, deal properly with these little bastards before they get to that level. Our current practices are failing our society, and the petty crooks who could be turned around. We allow them to repeatedly get away with the small stuff, so they take that as an invitation to progress onto serious offences.

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:08 am

Wilbur, great posts! Thanks for your input. It is just to bad the Liberal bleeding hearts can't see what is really needed and society has their heads buried so far into the sand that they actually believe the government will fix the problem!!

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:02 am

Wilbur...great post! One question. Now, for me, the idea of spending time in a prison (even a really nice prison, with a golf course, tennis courts etc.) would scare the crap out of me. And I'd be bored to bloody death. How does a five year sentence differ from a ten year sentence as far as the effectivness as a deterant? Is there any real advantage to a long incarceration vs a medium one.....other than the obvious length of time they will be off the streets? I'm not a fan of the "bread and water" mind set of treating criminals like animals, BTW. If we were going to do that, we could build prisons on arctic islands.....

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:45 am

Doc wrote:I'm not a fan of the "bread and water" mind set of treating criminals like animals

How come?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:57 am

Because DD, when the get out (and they all do) they WILL BE animals?

Chantal · Post by **Chantal** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:04 am

Thanks y'all, this is interesting.

Just want to point out that there our justice is not as stupid as some other countries. For example, I don't agree that Mr. Hussein is allowed to have a trial. Did you hear that he was complaining bout being mistreated in prison?
I don't think we should even hear him. In fact he should get a beating everyday for the rest of his life. I think, back in earlier days, beatings and torture were very effective to use on criminals. In Canada they don't have to worry about losing their hand or legs but maybe they should for some crimes.
I don't think it is all up to the Justice and corrections system to try and help the criminals but it's up to the criminal and his family to help each other. There are ALOT of dysfunctional people out there and if you're the parent of one of these people in prison then you should have to help him, if you can. And I think we should stop pulling out this Charter of Rights bullshit because it's not applicable for the task of administering Justice for society. What is the Charter of Rights? who wrote it? I'm about ready to pull my hair out because of all the bullshit happening because of it.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:22 am

The lobotomy has done wonders. I wait with baited breath for your next utterance!

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:35 am

Doc wrote:Because DD, when the get out (and they all do) they WILL BE animals?

Why not create an enviroment that people fear so there is some incentive not to go to jail. Have young offenders do hard labour for 2 years for a first offence and add 10 years on for each additional offence. Cut the maitenance budget on all jails and give the savings of that to the gaurds as a pay increase. Why should criminals live better than law abiding citizens?

The other option I guess is to build a halfway house right next door to your house and let them come and go as they please. You wouldn't object to that would you DOC?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:41 am

I live right next door to a halfway house as we speak! For young female offenders!
In my dreams!
Why dont we just shoot 'em...think of the money that would save?

marktheone · Post by **marktheone** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:44 am

I'm solidly with dust devil on this one. The prisons to them are good places. Hell you get a free tattoo with all your friends there. It is not an effective deterrent. I think we should bring back the death penalty. That is a deterrent. Of course it only works in a caught red handed situation, otherwise you end up with a bunch of dead Dave Milgaard's. Somethings gotta be done and banning handguns will actually make it worse by ensuring that homes are certainly not protected.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:47 am

Doc wrote: Why dont we just shoot 'em...think of the money that would save?

That's a good point. I would support that.

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:13 pm

Wilbur wrote:JPC, my idealization about how chronic criminals should be imprisoned was based on the notion of locking them up and throwing away the key; whether through some new form of habitual offender legislation or mandatory sentencing. In that ideal scenario they would never be released.

The two greatest expenses in running prisons are the capital cost of construction, and staffing. A new 250 bed facility of typical current design with work, recreation and education program areas costs about $50M not including the land, and will have a service life of 30 to 50 years. Get rid of the ballfield, tennis courts, gym and other recreation areas and you can easily shave 20% off the cost. You then also don't need the staff to run those facilities at an annual cost of about $300K.

Prison provides the vast majority of criminals with a much higher standard of living then they have "on the outs." And I can also assure you the facilities are much better than any CF barracks I have spent time in as a reserve officer during the past 30 years.

$10M to build a dirt track, gymn, ballfied and tennis courts is a very reasonable cost for a prison where most inmates will be released or should be released for commiting a minor crime with no criminal pattern. $300k for staff to run a ballfield, gymn or tennis courts seems a little excessive. My highschool provided these at an annual cost under $50k. Personally, I think getting criminals interested in any sort of legitimate activity is a good thing. I do agree that the criminals that have proven they are merely animals should be locked up and given just enough freedom or activity to keep them healthy. I haven't had the privilege of seeing the new facilities but the Max pen's like Kingston sure didn't appear better than CFB to me. There's what one Baseball diamond and a gymn? Sure an 8by10 cell complete with music and t.v. seems comfortable enough but that's smaller than my bedroom and if I was locked in my bedroom for more than 12 hours a day, without the freedom to leave, it'd be hell. I spent two weeks in a Max pen with work and was ready to slit my wrists after the first 2 days. Don't know how you do it, working in that environment for 25 years.

Most, if not all, correctional jurisdictions in Canada offer their inmates a variety of rehabilitative programs that have been validated by independent research. They are effective at reducing recidivism by increasing the periods of time between offences, reducing the seriousness of offences, and decreasing the age at which most criminals give up their criminal lifestyle. A typical program package includes a motivational program, substance abuse, cognitive skills, violence prevention, anger management, spousal assault, and sex offender courses that are provided on the basis of individual risk-needs assessments. The are effective even when participation is forced. The biggest problem we have in delivering these programs is that sentences that are too short to complete the necessary courses. It therefore takes them more trips to prison to complete the programs they need to convince and enable them to "go straight." This means more needless victims of crime in the community.

This is exactly what the public needs to know. The sentences for 1st timers don't need to be increased just for punishment reasons but rehabilitation. This is exactly why I'm for min. sentencing and getting rid of this joke of a sentencing system that we have now. Kids receive no help in changing and view the system as a mother that never punishes them and doesn't care about them.

The fast money of the drug trade is the single biggest attraction for young people joining these gangs and packing guns. A drop in b-ball program in "the hood" is not going to compete effectively with the attraction of an 18 year old drug dealer driving around in his new, fully decked out Denali flashing gold and diamond jewellery. We tell kids not to get involved in drugs and gangs, but we allow the criminals to keep the proceeds of their drug dealing and give them sentences that they see as a cost of doing business and nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

If we want to get a handle on crime we need to increase policing levels and somewhat loosen the rules of evidence. The greatest deterent is certainty of apprehension. Criminals tend to not do crimes when they believe their is a high liklihood of getting caught and convicted. Second, we need to increase penalties to a level where professional criminals no longer see them as an acceptable cost of business. Thirdly, those criminals who do not seem fazed by being caught, or the severity of the penalty (habitual offenders), should be locked away forever in the most spartan (cost effective) conditions that are still humane.

You're right that we have to hit drug dealers harder through finances and sentencing to stop making it look attractive, but we do need social programs as well. I grew up in a wealthy city/neighborhood but still knew people that dealt. I was friends with one kid that was basically the big shot for our city. He was was dealing to cops even and was given a brand new vehicle for his good work. He never did drugs and didn't bother with the green because there was no money in it. A few years back, we figure he got busted or came close cause he suddenly stopped. He had lots of other opportunities available to him and had no problems going clean. That's what you need to set up in the T.O. hoods. Give those kids the same opportunities as us, through trade/eduaction programs or good sports programs with possibilities of moving on to the pros. No don't try and set up a one hour B-Ball get together where some 45 year old gymn teacher tries to show them how to shoot a ball with two hands under the legs. Do the same thing in the prison's to give those that are getting released, another pathway. You have to give them an alternative to dealing rather than simply trying to eliminate dealing. Dealing is just a symptom of a bigger problem. Our sentencing is so slack right now that dealing is attractive to anyone, but increase the sentencing and possibilites of getting caught and the poor kids will continue to deal. It's the only thing that they know that'll pay for the life that the rich kids have.

Your post was excellent and I'm not disagreeing with it, just trying to show you the value in programs outside of the system as well. I do think that outside of the lifers or should be lifers, there should be relatively comfortable institutions. There should be hard work programs that the kids hate but there should be rewards to, even in prison. The goal should be rehabilitation and showing criminals how to live an honorable life including sports or activities that may take them away from the ghetto life.

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:19 pm

Chantal wrote:There are ALOT of dysfunctional people out there and I'm one of them

any guesses as to who this really is... Haz?

just clearing the trees · Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:31 pm

marktheone wrote:I'm solidly with dust devil on this one. The prisons to them are good places. Hell you get a free tattoo with all your friends there. It is not an effective deterrent.

Agreed. It isn't an effective deterrent.

However, let's take a page from the American's book:

marktheone wrote:I think we should bring back the death penalty. That is a deterrent.

http://www.karisable.com/crpundeath.htm
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/

The two states with the most executions in 2003, Texas 24, and Oklahoma 14, saw increases in their murder rates from 2002 to 2003. Both states had murder rates above the national average in 2003: Texas - 6.4, and Oklahoma - 5.9. The top 13 states in terms of murder rates were all death penalty states. The murder rate of the death penalty states increased from 2002, while the rate in non-death penalty states decreased.

I don't want to come across as a bleeding heart Liberal, because I certainly am not. However, at the root of the majority of these types of crimes, there are common causes, poverty being a major one. Strict punishment, as necessary as it may be, does nothing to address these causes. Our desire to see appropriate punishment meted out should be tempered with our desire to see the root causes addressed, in order to prevent these things from happening in the first place wherever possible.

just clearing the trees · Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:32 pm

Double post.

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:40 pm

Punishment definately deters on some crimes, just not the crimes of passion. Look at speeding. If they increased the punishment to death, no-one would do it. Fraud and drug dealing etc. are generally the same. It is not a crime of passion like murder and if rational thought clearly shows that the benefits of the crime far outweigh the punishment then what's stopping people from partaking regardless of the causes.

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:49 pm

justplanecrazy wrote:
Chantal wrote:There are ALOT of dysfunctional people out there and I'm one of them
any guesses as to who this really is... Haz?

What did I do wrong now?

just clearing the trees · Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:56 pm

True. Like you alluded to earlier though, people who live in marginalized neighbourhoods quite often feel that gangs and/or dealing are the only viable option of obtaining a "better" life for themselves. Being a gang member and dealing drugs may not be a crime of passion, but it is a lifestyle that can readily lend itself to committing crimes of passion. If kids in these neighbourhoods had some alternative ways of really bettering themselves, such as trade and skills training, and some decent role models that they can aspire to imitate, rather than thugs, they would be less likely to fall into that "it's my only option" attitude. Sure, there will always be some that are drawn to the criminal lifestyle, but if it helps even half, that would make a huge difference. Basically, these kids just want to rise above their circumstances and unfortunately the easiest way to do that is crime. Give them a helping hand and show them the right direction, and maybe more would be more likely to take the respectable route.

Just my 2 cent, though. Don't want to start up another

Wilbur · Post by **Wilbur** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:04 pm

When you talk about community programs, remember there are already plenty of programs for kids in every major city. For example, the cadet programs are available in every major city, make no distinctions between rich and poor, and are funded by the federal government. In fact, I know of no better youth program in the world. Sports programs are good for teaching teamwork and some basic lifeskills, but they are not a ticket out of the hood. A very small percentage will ever go pro or even get a scholorship.

What these kids need is to learn the value of hard work, education, integrity, self-reliance, and that life is not supposed to be easy. A high standard of living is earned, not taken or given. That will be their ticket up the ladder. This idea crosses all socio-economic boundaries, as do gangs and organized crime.

Poverty is not a cause of crime. The vast majority of kids from poor neighbourhoods do not wind up in prison. Most go on to lead honest productive lives, albeit most often toward the lower end of the ecomomic spectrum. Poverty is like crime; a symptom of other problems.

Prisons are filled with the learning disabled, personality disordered, addicted, and mentally ill. These people are poor because they don't have the education, intelligence, lifeskills, coping skills, or neurology that most of us have. There are many reasons and combinations of reasons for this, some envirnmental and some genetic. Most of which we have a limited understanding.

JPC, in this country you don't get sent to prison unless you have comitted a serious offence, or you have established a pattern of criminality. There are occasional exceptions, but they are very far and few between and those people are released quickly. The cost of running your school gym is not comparable to a prison. Your school did not operate 12 months a year, did not invovle a bunch of expensive security features, and did not require dedicated staff 7 days a week.

LH · Post by LH » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:50 pm

Ban handguns? I'll assume that the governments believe that if they ban handguns that criminals will get scared and not use them or hand them in.......or that it will make them harder for criminals to obtain. I wonder if they will also ban the transportation through Canada of hanguns shipped through Canada from coast to coast in "Sea Cans" enroute to other countries?

Wilbur · Post by **Wilbur** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:01 am

I think Jack Layton should trump Paul Martin's election promise. Never mind the half measure of banning handguns, go all the way Jack and ban crime. It's sure to win you millions of votes!

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:04 am

Wilbur......you mean, he can do that? Make crime illegal?? What a concept!

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:15 am

Wilbur wrote:I think Jack Layton should trump Paul Martin's election promise. Never mind the half measure of banning handguns, go all the way Jack and ban crime. It's sure to win you millions of votes!

LOL Toronto would be all over that. we would be looking at an NDP majority government.

Cool Rythms! · Post by **Cool Rythms!** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:43 pm

I'm all for it, but what's it going to accomplish. All it's going to do, is encourage criminals to be more creative in seeking other avenues in acquiring firearms.

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:18 pm

Wilbur wrote:When you talk about community programs, remember there are already plenty of programs for kids in every major city. For example, the cadet programs are available in every major city, make no distinctions between rich and poor, and are funded by the federal government. In fact, I know of no better youth program in the world. Sports programs are good for teaching teamwork and some basic lifeskills, but they are not a ticket out of the hood. A very small percentage will ever go pro or even get a scholorship.

hahahahah.... cadet program. I can just see the kids lining up to join. This is just the point, there are no programs that are out there targeting the kids growing up in impoverished crime ridden neighborhoods. Any kid caught wearing a cadet uniform would be mocked for years, not to mention having to cut his hair and dress like a teacher. You have to have programs that the kids are interested in. You create a basketball team that is winning games and that the popular kids are interested in playing for, you change the atmosphere of the school. Now the cool kids are the ones playing ball not just the ones dealing drugs. They now have two "cool" paths to follow. The kids that are on the b-ball team won't go pro unless they are awesome but they can present that dream to them. If the program is good, there's a good posibility of sholarships. It's something to try for and at the same time, you can use it to make the kids work hard at school. Make them attend and pass their classes or they're booted. The other kids will see some of the "cool" kids attending all of their classes and trying and it'll encourage them to do the same. In the end, if they don't make the scholarship, they've made the academic grades and have other opportunities.

Right now the kids extra ciricular activities involve smoking up and downing 40's. It's not constructive and any type of program that is put in place that stops that will change the outcome of these kids lives.

What these kids need is to learn the value of hard work, education, integrity, self-reliance, and that life is not supposed to be easy. A high standard of living is earned, not taken or given. That will be their ticket up the ladder. This idea crosses all socio-economic boundaries, as do gangs and organized crime.

You're right but a cadet program is geared towards kids already on the right track with caring parents and a decent background. A bunch of middle class 40 year old white boy Cadet Leaders aren't going to convince them of this. A basketball coach that can meet them at their level and understand where they're coming from will. You have to find something that appeals to them just like the nerdy white boy is attracted to cadets.

Poverty is not a cause of crime. The vast majority of kids from poor neighbourhoods do not wind up in prison. Most go on to lead honest productive lives, albeit most often toward the lower end of the ecomomic spectrum. Poverty is like crime; a symptom of other problems.

Prisons are filled with the learning disabled, personality disordered, addicted, and mentally ill. These people are poor because they don't have the education, intelligence, lifeskills, coping skills, or neurology that most of us have. There are many reasons and combinations of reasons for this, some envirnmental and some genetic. Most of which we have a limited understanding.

Sure the majority of poor people will make it through life crime free. If this wasn't the case our country would be a war zone. But to say that the majority make it is turning a blind eye to the problem. If you look at these gangs in Toronto, they're not made up of one white rich boy from downtown, another farm boy from the country, another computer nerd from college. These gangs are formed in a minority of the schools and a small minority of the population. The vast majority are from a few lower class neighborhoods in T.O. just like Kompton and the Bronc's etc.

To say that these people are like this because of personality disorders, intelligence or learning disabilities or neurology is bullshit. By saying that, you're saying that the black race is not as smart as the white race because they are generally poorer. They are like this soley because of the other reasons that you pointed out: addiction, life skills, and education. The reason they are faced with these problems or are lacking these skills is soley because of the atmosphere that they are born into. They are expected to fail in life, like there parents did. They have no role models and they have a shitty home life. You have to bring in motivational speakers and educational/skills programs to show the kids that this isn't the case and that there are options out there. If they're from a black community, bring in a black lawyer, a black cop, a black carpenter that came from a similar background. Show them that they have paths out there that they can choose. Increase the Career and Professional Planning programs at a young age.

JPC, in this country you don't get sent to prison unless you have comitted a serious offence, or you have established a pattern of criminality. There are occasional exceptions, but they are very far and few between and those people are released quickly. The cost of running your school gym is not comparable to a prison. Your school did not operate 12 months a year, did not invovle a bunch of expensive security features, and did not require dedicated staff 7 days a week.

I've never denied that our sentencing system is a joke, rather I've been trying to show people why we need minimum sentencing etc. The cost of running our school gym is exactly the same as the prisons. No matter if that building in the prison is a gymn, a compound, a cafeteria etc, they have to have expensive security features, and dedicated staff 7 days a week. Once you are past the cost of building these features, the only extra staff that a prison gym requires is the same as the maitenance staff that a school requires. The only time you don't have to have extra security staff present in a prison building, is when the prisoners are in lockdown, and I don't think that even you would suggest that 24 hrs a day.

Back to the original post... yes every single firearm legislation that has been or is being proposed to be put in place in the last 10 years is pointless and a huge wast of money.

Hand Gun Ban

Hand Gun Ban Good or Bad??