Poor Check-On-Types

captain_v1.0 · Post by **captain_v1.0** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:36 pm

Call me crazy, everyone else does, but I don't think most schools handle checkouts very well. Over the last two weeks I've done the yearly dance on three of my favorite aircraft and the only differencewas the fact they were on different aircraft.

I mean if I can steep turn a 172 to commcercial standards I'm sure I can turn a PA28 the same way and I did. It's a waste of my time and money when I walk away not knowing anymore than I did coming into the school that morning.

Don't get me wrong I've flown with some great people that know their aircraft well and have left from the booking thinking (WOW! Things that make you go hmmm.) I've also flown with a child that spent more time yaking in a busy circuit than they did during the first half of the flight, we nearly laded w/o clearance because of this.

I'd love to know how others feel about this, because I have my license I know how to stall the damn thing and recover from it after 30-90' I'd like to spend more time on systems and understanding that type of aircraft.

They really should be handled more like LOFT training with the airlines.

Big Pistons Forever · Post by **Big Pistons Forever** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:24 pm

After 4 years of full time instructing and another 13 part time, I have done quite a few checkouts and prof checks. I always include the practice force landing exercise. In all that time I have NEVER had a PPL or low hour commercially licensed pilot make the field on the first attempt. In addition there was usually a fair amount of poor stick and rudder skills and various sloppy/bad habits. I would suggest that a review of all the basic airwork is always worth while.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:31 pm

Yeh, Big Pistons when I owned a flight school and used to do check outs for rental pilots I was appalled at the low level of flying skills in most licensed pilots.

Why don't schoools concentrate on how to manipulate the flight controls to make the airplane go where they want it to go?

Or is air law and having your proper paper work with you more important?

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:24 pm

Checkouts have turned into an easy way for a school to make some cash and blame it on insurance requirements (whether valid or not).

And god, it's New Years Eve and I'm waiting for my pager to go off, alone at home. Leeeewwwwssseeerrrr!

Sonny · Post by **Sonny** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:11 pm

Could not agree more about type check outs not concentrating enough on the type. If you are licensed you can turn and stall and all that basic stuff, the time should be used to get to know the particulars of that aircraft like landing configurations and how it glides. Take offs etc...

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:17 pm

Always thought it was funny how, when you rent a Buick, they toss you the keys and off you go...even though you may have never been in a Buick in your entire life.
Now, when you want to rent a 150, these "know-it-all" instructors want to suck you dry for an hour and a half.....even though you have lots of time in 172's!
I know WHY!!! I just think it's funny!

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:46 pm

Doc wrote:Always thought it was funny how, when you rent a Buick, they toss you the keys and off you go...even though you may have never been in a Buick in your entire life.
Now, when you want to rent a 150, these "know-it-all" instructors want to suck you dry for an hour and a half.....even though you have lots of time in 172's!
I know WHY!!! I just think it's funny!

Just drive by the back end of a car rental company's compound and look at the wreckage; that's why.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:51 pm

That's the "Parts" department!

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:00 am

Here we go, another let's bash the flight instructor.

Well before I rant, why don't you buy your own, or even better, build your own plane, and F*ck off?

Instructors don't make the rules at the FTU, the owners do

But sure, for 1.0 and $15, the instructor is really sucking you dry

Is every instructor a know it all? I really don't think so! some are jackasses, sure, but some are there to teach and to learn.

How would an instructor know how your flying skills are dude? even if you have 100 million hours on type, have you ever flown with him/her? Why would they sign their name and put their licence on the line for you? If it was your brother or father, sure, maybe they'll say sure kiddo, off you go, come back by dinner time.

Some jackass off the street, whos got maybe 200 hours and a PPL, thinking they are king shit, oh, and the 200 hours are over 20 years, so do the math and tell me how current they are. Yeah sure, 200 hours on type, off you go maverick.

It seems that some compare a buick to an airplane to base their arguement, then dude, just go with the buick

It seems that they are the same to you, why go with the headache and the more expensive of the two! the buick is cheaper on gas, well, maybe, but it defenitly fits more people than the 150 that you want to captain.

Check on type is at the discretion of the instructor, could be 15min or 10 flights, who the hell knows how every chap flies.

There is no harm in telling the instructor, hey, I did this checkout on the 172 last week, so can we maybe stick around in the circuit in the cherokee? voice your concerns to those money sucking vampires, not here after the fact.

IMHO, every check-out should be geared towards the rental pilot, i.e. what their flying backround is.

/rant

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:54 am

I was making light of the situation.....but by refering to the people who pay your salary as "some jackass off the street...." kind of drives home the point....that I wasen't really trying to make in the first place....of how some instructors look at themselves as "Gods"? So, when you climb down from that high place you're at....maybe you can pull your head out of your ass long enough to see an attempt at humour, for what it is?
Lighten up!

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:00 am

tsk tsk tsk doc, here you are assuming that I'm an instructor.

I used the term jackass to refer to those who come in thinking they should be handed the keys on a silver plate without having to do a checkride and/or the ones who complain about them on the internet rather than take the issue up with the instructor or the CFI.

I guarantee you that the jackass that comes in once a year for a checkride (which an instructor would make less than $15 after tax) does not pay the instructors bills, hell, at the end of the month, I bet you the instructor himself/herself can't even pay for their bills

Why would an instructor think they are god? Most fly pieces of shit with wings, make shit money, and get treated like crap by their fellow pilots, whom without these instructors wouldn't have learned how to fly in the first place (most of them).

Me thinks its the other way around actually, those pilots who go to rent an airplane, then look down on the instructor, and think they are better than them. I think they feel a bit of a shot to the ego, i.e. why the f*ck is this piece of shiat instructor checking ME out! I am GOD!

I do not need a check ride! Get down on your knees you filthy instructor!

I suggest you act like a gentleman, and start treating fellow pilots with respect.

p.s. how do the cars go from the lot into the "parts" section ?

p.ps. Happy new year

Miss Mae · Post by **Miss Mae** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:26 pm

I was a flight instrutor for 5 years and at the school I taught at management made up a checklist for the instructors to follow for a check out. I followed it and never had any issues with it. The reason being was that once I did a check out with the guy/girl...every time that person came in for a flight it was up to me to sign them out (which alot of times was once every 60 days...just enough to stay current)

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:43 pm

bob sacamano wrote:
Check on type is at the discretion of the instructor, could be 15min or 10 flights, who the hell knows how every chap flies.

/rant

That's the problem, not all schools leave it up to the discretion of the instructor. If they did, this discussion would probably be fizzled out by now as any of the good instructors out there would no doubt do what they thought was best for the saftety equipment and the client.

I think a lot of the frustration out there is becuase checkouts at some places don't seem to hinge at all on the experience level of the pilot. I'm no Maverick, but I do hold a Class 2 instructor rating and I'm currently flying a BE20. The last school I wanted to get checked out with wanted me to do 2.5 hours MINIMUM just to rent a 172 for a spin around the town. Seemed a bit excessive, and I turned it down because I think I'd need a rape shower after.

I'm the first to back up instructors on this - hell most of them are probably more frustrated at excessive checkout requirements than the guys coming in to rent (you ever tell a 747 Capt that they need to do 2.5 hours in a 172 to show that they can fly?).

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:17 pm

[quote="Pugster

I'm the first to back up instructors on this - hell most of them are probably more frustrated at excessive checkout requirements than the guys coming in to rent (you ever tell a 747 Capt that they need to do 2.5 hours in a 172 to show that they can fly?).[/quote]

Well not a 747 Capt, but a DC10. Actually it's been my experience that checking out heavy drivers is a good test of your nerves; they all seem to want to flare 150 feet up, and it takes a while to break em of the habit. By the way, that was only a little bit tongue in cheek; heavy drivers really can be tough.

For me, it's very rare for a checkout to last an hour; usually it's in the .7 range. If I book you for another dual flight after a checkout; chances are you made my life flash before my eyes and I missed all the good parts because I was praying and am therefore pissed off at you. With someone who's ability I know; the longest part of the checkout is probably you reading the checklist, unless you really pooch a landing.

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:35 am

@Pugster

Agree with what you said, however, i've never heard of a minimum of 2.5, this obviously is a rip off, however, it's the owner/management that sets this number, it's their business, and they can ask for a 100 if they wish. Good thing you turned them down.

However, the last part was a bit off, the heavy drivers need not practice upper air work and/or airmanship (in most cases), they need circuits, since they flare so high.

@shitdisturber

right on.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:04 am

captain_v1.0 wrote:I'd like to spend more time on systems and understanding that type of aircraft.

Think you all missed the key point, he wanted to learn more about the "systems" ie : POH, most school do a bad job about this with their "open book" test, you just copy and paste pretty much the answers, but if you have a question about said systems in said book, maybe you should spend the .5 on a pre-brief(you know, before you fly) and learn about the "systems" you shouldn't be flying if you don't know the systems, and you should ask them to clarify stuff that you don't know*.

*Many times the bone heads will tell you to look it up

or the better one, "oh it's not important." So it's often a lose lose.. =(

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:31 pm

Just out of curiosity, what 'systems' are we talking about in 172s, PA28s, etc?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:56 pm

Been looking a picking up an airplane, and renting it out to qualified pilots. Now as for checkouts, I'll be prequalifing my renters by talking to their current school, getting a photo copy of their last log book page. (Because, my insurance company wants them on the policy) But, as for a "hands on" checkout....it'll be a circuit or two. I can tell if I want you as a renter after one circuit....and a short chat.
Like Pugster, I'm a pretty current pilot.....maybe not on a 172, but I think I could sort one out in a circuit, or two.....and I have been "milked" by an instructor on more than one occasion.

angry inch · Post by **angry inch** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:06 pm

I did some float exercises with a 320 training cap'n from a euro airline a couple years back. It was in a 180 & I had about 150 hrs on floats total!! (GULP...) I was nervous as hell to start 'cause this guy was a master of procedure's & checklists etc... when we actually got out there, we went through a few basics & then talked about the stick & rudder and water flying specific skills we thought we most important & went out & practiced them. We learnt a lot from each other & had a great time. I was glad the "How many hours you got??" discussion never happened and the dude went away happy. (The sweat eventually evaporated from my palms!!) I think there needs to be a good COMBINATION of "goin' through the list" and finding out what the guy/girl gettin' checked out need and want to work on. I think a good instructor will find a balance between what the FTU requires & what the pilot off the street needs & wants. Hats off to the ones who do...

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:45 pm

I've given 'way more checkouts on fixed-gear, fixed-pitch-prop bugsmashers than I ever wanted to do.

On the ground, I would ask the guy:

1) how many quarts of oil is in it? When would you add oil?

2) how much gas is in it? How long until the prop stops? ie how many gallons per hour does it burn, and how many gallons are in it? Moral of the story: visually check the tanks, use your wristwatch, don't trust the fuel gauges.

Then, we'd climb into the aircraft, and I'd sit there and watch him go through the checklist, and I'd ask him for one circuit with a full stop. I'd try not to say a damned thing during the circuit, but wait until we'd landed to make some comments (if any).

Most low-time pilots don't control speed very precisely on final, nor do they stay on the centerline, they usually don't touch down in the first thousand feet of runway, and they rarely handle crosswinds very well.

If the first circuit had major errors, I'd have him do a second circuit, to see that he had corrected his mistakes.

Once the guy can fly a circuit with no major errors, I ask him to do another circuit, and the throttle goes to idle on downwind abeam the numbers. If he can glide to the runway and land, we're done. If not, he gets to do it again.

I have very low standards. All I want to see is a normal circuit with no major errors, and the simplest forced approach there is.

If the guy was hot stuff, we'd do two circuits - one normal, one forced approach - and off he'd go. It really didn't take too long. A recurrent type checkout really shouldn't need stalls, spins, loops, hammerheads, 1/2 cuban eights or partial panel hood work

I remember checking out an airline pilot on a C172 - he was a surprisingly competent stick - and on the second circuit he was looking at me and grinning, looking at me and the throttle.

So, just to keep his life interesting, I told him that his control column had just failed. He was to land the aircraft using only power, elevator trim and rudder. He did ok, as I recall. Gosh, that's gotta be 10 years ago now. Funny what sticks in your mind, eh?

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:43 pm

sakism wrote:Just out of curiosity, what 'systems' are we talking about in 172s, PA28s, etc?

fukc if I know, maybe they have a gps? All I know is that Capt, was complaining how he's 'licensed" as a "pilot" and to be licensed you need to know the "stuff" on the check out, so he'd rather learn stuff about the "systems" instead of doing circuits...

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:16 pm

Doc wrote:....and I have been "milked" by an instructor on more than one occasion.

Hurts the ol' man boobs, doesn't it Doc...

Hedley - that's pretty much what I used to give for checkouts as well. Quick review of the killer items on the aircraft, couple of circuits (one emergency), and if I didn't have sweaty palms, off they went. I should say though that if said pilot wasn't current (we used 12 months as a guideline) then the checkout usually was treated as more of a refresher and lasted about 1 hour or so, depending on past experience.

I just get pissed when it gets quoted as being an insurance requirement, when having been an instructor I know that most insurance companies are satisfied with much less than some schools are requiring. Buyer beware, I suppose.

Poor Check-On-Types

Poor Check-On-Types

Check outs

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