SE Turbine vs Ramp?

taffer · Post by **taffer** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:00 pm

Good evening,

I have a question/scenario for everyone here.

Assume you're currently working the ramp for a reputable company with an all-turbine fleet. You've been at the company for +4 months, and expect to be flying full-time within 12 months. New-hires are being told to expect 2 years, but realistically, it's probably shorter. Captains are currently leaving for places like Jazz, Cathay, Skyservice, WJ, etc. Upgrades to PIC on twin turbine a/c can come within 1 year after you start working as an FO. Pilots generally fly 1000 hrs/year. You'd likely be based up North for a while, and you're not too "keen" on living in the cities where the pilots are based, but you can put up with it. The company is expanding a lot with new planes coming in, so things look good for the short-term future.

Now assume you get offered a job to fly a SE turbine (Pilatus). You would fly 500 hours/year. You would be based in a nice big city- somewhere you're comfortable spending a long time, maybe even the rest of your career in that city! All the destinations they fly to are interesting. You'd love to fly something like a Pilatus, but it's the only plane this company operates (in fact, it's run privately, and there's only 1 plane, and you would be the only FO).

If you're offered the job, would you take it? Is it worth leaving an opportunity for ME turbine time within 12 months, for SE turbine time right now? I'm just a little confused as some people seem to think that SE turbine time is not worth much. My ultimate goal is to fly for an airline, but I'd be equally happy flying a jet for a corporate outfit. I could be "stuck" in the right seat of the pilatus if a slow-down occurs; however, it would obviously be worse to be stuck on the ramp.

What would you do? Also, assume that you have +600 hours with all the PIC requirements for the ATP (except the nigth XC).

Much thanks!!

Mic.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:15 pm

Take the PC12 job.
While single engine turbine aint worth all that much....ramp time is worth, ZIP!

ski_bum · Post by **ski_bum** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:25 pm

If you want to get on with an airline, I think sticking it out on the ramp would be the best bet, especially if your company is doing captain upgrades within a year of being a FO.

If you are expecting to get around 1000 hours a year it will make your airline dream come a little quicker and with Air Canada hiring 20 some pilots a month for this next year, your ramp time will more than likely be shorter than 12 months.

The other thing to think about is will you get moved up to Captian at the PC12 outfit? My guess is the Captain is pretty comfortable where he is now and is probably not going anywhere soon.

I'd say hold on, wait till they upgrade you to the twin. But thats my 2 cents.

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:29 pm

I agree with Doc, just working ramp doesnt gurantee you a seat in a plane. Take the job on the PC-12, I think you already know it sounds more interesting than the other. It aint where you end up its the journey along the way, Enjoy the it trip. Go ask the guy in front of the 747 about flying, its just a job.

taffer · Post by **taffer** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:24 pm

Thanks for the input so far! I know I would be happier flying and living closer to home in a big city, but like I said, I don't want to sacrifice long-term career advancement. The type of flying the job would entail definetly interests me, though.

Being almost 25 years old, I have already come to the realization that this is "just a job." I'm not in the biggest rush to get to an airline, and I really want to enjoy the journey to whereever it is that I will retire from. I just feel a little concerned that if I leave my current ramp job, it will take me a lot longer to get to that "retirement" job.

Anyone have experience going from a PC12 to something like a King Air, or similar? Would I ever have a shot with a company down the road like KBA, CMA, etc?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:45 pm

You're concerned about leaving your ramp job for a job FLYING. Doc returns to his beer, shaking his head in wonder.

comeoneileen · Post by **comeoneileen** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:00 pm

Doc wrote:You're concerned about leaving your ramp job for a job FLYING. Doc returns to his beer, shaking his head in wonder.

Perhaps a little short term pain for long term gain?

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:10 pm

comeoneileen wrote:
Doc wrote:You're concerned about leaving your ramp job for a job FLYING. Doc returns to his beer, shaking his head in wonder.
Perhaps a little short term pain for long term gain?

I'm sure that's what the guys at Skyward were thinking the day they were let go and started working the ramp for someone else.

But Taf's position is secure, so it's a matter of sticking it out, but I like the PC-12 gig.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:10 pm

Or, perhaps, LONG TERM PAIN for NO gain? You just never know if that "pot of gold" is really at the end of the rainbow?
You guys spent upwards of THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS to be a PILOT!! Not work on a ramp! If there is a FLYING job...is that not the name of the game????

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:44 pm

it looks like 2 possibly good choices... geez, i don't know what to say here, bud...
Part of me is thinking you're going to miss the best flying in Canada by skipping out on the Northern route (and some of the coolest scenery and the most fun you will ever have in your career - especially if you go direct white shirt airline/ executive route) I am a true believer in trying all aspects of flying out before picking one... some of the places you would rather not live aren't so bad and you should be prepared to move around for a while..but i digress...

The PC-12 gig... privately owned, eh? is this a stable set up? i am not saying it isn't, just make sure it is. I know of one private plane that is no longer on line as the owners thought it too pricey.

BUT, part of me is thinking the flying as FO will expose you to real IFR experience; something that becomes rusty very quickly - especially when you're bombing around at 200ft in the bush.
be aware that multi PIC can be hard to come by unless you own your own twin, so think about how you will one day get on a twin should you choose the PC-12 gig., which is flying right now...

Anyway... i see i have not helped at all. the end

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:34 pm

A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

I never figured out if that was talking about porn or career choices, but...

I know of a few guys who have turned down good gigs because they felt something better was just around the corner. Sometimes it was, lots of times it wasn't. If you can get a flying job (especially flying a turbine), I'd suggest doing it. Flying the ramp isn't a guarantee that you'll ever get in one of the airplanes (unless they wrote and signed an agreement...hahaha), and flying the PC12 would be great experience.

Just my 2c...

oldncold · Post by **oldncold** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:35 pm

well try this on--

pc 12 250 knts glass cockpit (efis etc ) high alt mini AIRLINEr

real world ifr atc fixes delays etc. or will that be sugar in your coffee sir.

only thing is you will need multi time after though and the cut in pay to get will make ya think long and hard.

shimmydampner · Post by **shimmydampner** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:37 pm

Doc and his beer are exactly right. Take the 12. It's not sacrificing long-term gain in the least.
There's plenty of companies that operate both 12's and multi-turbines. When you feel it's time to move on, make a lateral move to one of those companies. Fly their Pilatus for a bit and then get an upgrade into a multi-machine.
The PC-12 is a pretty sweet machine. Who knows, you just might even like it enough to stick around for the long term.

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:02 pm

Working for a 1-plane, private outfit sounds to me like a recipe for becoming somebody's 'b-word' big time. Ya its flying, ya its in a big city, blah blah blah.
Just know that you'd be doing a job that any 200-hr wonder willing to work for free could do with 3 hrs of aircraft training and a PCC. Hell probably not even that if its operated under 604 regs. 500 hrs a year for a 'private' operator is also exceptionally high aircraft usage. I'd dig deeper into that number especially as its a particularly easy carrot to dangle, that doesn't ever really have to come true. "Oh sorry our business is down this year, or I just didn't need to travel as much as in the past" etc.
I counter "A bird in hand is worth two in the bush" with
"Good things come to those who wait"
Twin, turbine, PIC, 1000 hrs a year. So what if you have to wait a bit longer, its only been 4 months! That's nothing! Not to mention Jazz is doubling their hiring this year so all your captains at the current company will probably be on their way out one way or another within a very short time.

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:02 am

Do theyhave an OC requiring 2 crew ops if not, you can't log the time. I'd stay where you are my .02$

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:32 am

rigpiggy wrote:Do theyhave an OC requiring 2 crew ops if not, you can't log the time. I'd stay where you are my .02$

ROFL, yeah, I'm sure the guys that "solo'ed"(but instructor beside them) in the Pacific region and got signed off on their float ratings said "yeah, we really don't have a float rating, don't give us a job." Yeah, yeah, TC is looking into taking away their ratings, but that's for TC to decide, you can log anything you want.

But you're right, if TC does investigate no ATPL for you, but you can tell whoever wants to employ you after that you have a XXXX hours on PC-12 and they won't give a sh9t if it's true or not(yes OC or Not)...

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:44 am

it's called PIC under supervision. I'd like to see the premiums for insurance otherwise, my cousin bought a floater, no hull coverage until 200 hrs float, no pax for 25 hrs. regrettably he piled it up after the 200 hr mark, before he changed the insurance either way, he's bought himself an a/c twice.

stuckmike · Post by **stuckmike** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:19 pm

I'll make you a deal.

You stay on the ramp.

I'll take the Pilatus.

Let's compare notes in 2 years.

Deal?

Seriously, I quote from another topic, it is so fitting.

Mike Oxlong said:

either way you'll be kicking you self in the ass later, wishing you did it the other way. it never ends. pilot's are never happy.

Truer words were never said.

Cheers

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:35 pm

Dude, I'd stay where you are. It's a one-stop-shop to the airlines (your stated goal) Ramp-Turbine FO-Piston PIC-Turbine PIC-Airline. Once you get to the top, then you can fly to interesting places. If you take the PC12, you'll have to move there, and then move again to get PIC, and then again to the 'big smoke' for your airline. Besides, one plane can be got rid of way quicker that 2,3,4..or however many your present co. has - if the -12 goes, so does your job, and you're back on the ramp at your current employer with nothing to show for it except a reputation that you aren't as loyal as you could be.

JMHO

CAL · Post by **CAL** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:17 pm

Thats a really good question.

But I dont think there is any right answer...its all a crazy journey.

It does say alot though about the industry slowly improving though which is good to see.

Personally I did the easy route and I am sitting at a desk, it hasnt worked out and now I am basically a year behind guys I was a year ahead of when I was doing the multi turbine fo gig......I would lean toward sticking it out and working hard and keep getting those resumes updated with the airlines and get that ATP done. Bottom line is they want TT and PIC and Turbine.....have fun and live the life when you can travel the world for cheap.

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:24 pm

CAL wrote:...have fun and live the life when you can travel the world for cheap.

on standby ... always carry clean underwear and a toothbrush... well at least a toothbrush or a minty toothpick...

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:20 pm

Presumably there is some improvement in your pay, benefits and working conditions? Don't forget, as the one-man band, you will wash, vacuum, fuel and dump the shitter after you finish flying...unless they give you a Captain's checkout on your first recurrent, dump BOTH the jobs if you're not off the ramp by March, 'cause you'll need to be on the road by then. If you've already done 4 months and you aren't flying something by March, say "Up your pipe, Jack," and walk away smiling sweetly.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:23 pm

xsbank wrote:If you've already done 4 months and you aren't flying something by March, say "Up your pipe, Jack," and walk away smiling sweetly.

I thought Jack had already quit...

SE Turbine vs Ramp?

SE Turbine vs Ramp?

rampn or flappin