AC Hiring question from a Jazzer

jazzed up · Post by **jazzed up** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:37 am

Thought I'd give this a try since it's been taking quite awhile for my supervisor to answer a question. Due to an illness in my family and after reading my memo dated on May 28 /05 from our Director, Flight Operations I never put my application to the mainline till my family situation was resolved only to find out I had between May 28 - June 03 to be considered for employment.

Are there anymore Jazz pilots out there in my situation that have found that the memo from Grant Warner was not clear enough about the dates being a "hard" date and that interviews will not be granted to those applying after the date.

Is there someone even at the mainline who might have some advice as well about what direction one can take to try and get the "wheels " turning and get back in the process.

Thanks

( I have included the memo below )

From: Grant Warner
Title: Director, Flight Operations
Date: May 28, 2005
Subject: Flight Ops Memo 05-153 Air Canada Pilot Hiring

"Jazz pilots interested in employment as an Air Canada pilot are invited to submit their applications electronically on the Air Canada Website. Go to Aircanada.com, click on About Air Canada, Career Opportunities, Pilots, View Jobs, and Submit/Access your Profile.

Jazz employees who meet the minimum requirements will be selected for an interview based on seniority.

All candidates will undergo a comprehensive interview, a medical examination, as well as written and practical testing.

Offers of employment will be based on qualifications and performance during the selection process.

The first pilot indoctrination course is scheduled to begin in July. To be considered for this course, you must submit your application no later than Friday, June 3, 2005.

It is expected that up to 600 pilot positions will be filled in the next two to three years. "

Further details related to pay, vacation and pass privileges will be forthcoming shortly. They are accepting electronic applications only.

YULdude · Post by **YULdude** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:18 am

JU,

Having just read your post this line sticks out: "The first pilot indoctrination course is scheduled to begin in July. To be considered for this course, you must submit your application no later than Friday, June 3, 2005. "

When I read that, I understand that the June 3rd deadline is only for the July Indoc course...

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:43 am

Where in the memo does it say that if you apply after that date, you will not be considered for an interview? Has your resume been rejected because you missed the "hard date"?

flyinggirl · Post by **flyinggirl** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:02 am

I know someone who was returning from loa and was not granted access to the employee website at that time (even though he was in payroll) so he also "missed the boat" with ac.
Why only 5 days notice for the timeline? Some people do not check the website every 5 days and would therefore miss the opportunity. It seems like it was almost on purpose - such short notice - so Jazz would not lose so many pilots. But I may be wrong - maybe it wasnt political at all.
Is there any way to get your application looked at by AC if your seniority number was overlooked due to these circumstances or is it jus shi**y luck?

jazzed up · Post by **jazzed up** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:54 am

YULdude

"When I read that, I understand that the June 3rd deadline is only for the July Indoc course..."

I have always been interested in making the transition to the mainline and did submit an application the "old fashion" way Jan 3 /05 and again with updated references in March. Now only to find out two months later that one can only apply online. Well fair enough. I did see the memo on May 28th and made a conscious decision to submit online later thinking that the first couple courses will be full with members with more seniority and thus giving me more time to spend with a family member. Sure I could of just filled it out and taken my chances but to be really honest I was not even thinking of flying . I made my decision based on what I feel comes first and that's my family. If all that comes out of this is I "missed the boat" because the deadline passed me by then deep down I did make the right choice.

Now I think they are somewhere around the 1050 mark on the Jazz seniority list and it just came right to my number where guys were getting calls for an interview and just kept going, passing it by 150 plus numbers.

Could someone that frequents this site from the mainline check to see what people like me could do to get back in the process as I'm checking from my end as well.

Thanks to all.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:32 pm

While we're on the topic of Jazz going to AC, the latest thing floating around is that they are giving Jazz guys numbers on the ACPA list but holding them at Jazz until we have enough pilots to do all our flying. Apparently there is a provision in LOU18 for the company to do this if the applicant hasn't been on type or in their position for at least 24 months. Do any of the AC guys here know if this is possible? Would it be honoured by ACPA? How that would affect the position pay situation, if by the time Jazz released you, your seniority was high enough to hold a slot outside the pay group. I know LOU 18 is an agreement between the AC and ACPA but it seems to have be modified several times in the last few years and I was just wondering if the most current version still reads the same way.

Thanks

balls · Post by **balls** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:26 pm

bcflyer wrote:While we're on the topic of Jazz going to AC, the latest thing floating around is that they are giving Jazz guys numbers on the ACPA list but holding them at Jazz until we have enough pilots to do all our flying. Apparently there is a provision in LOU18 for the company to do this if the applicant hasn't been on type or in their position for at least 24 months. Do any of the AC guys here know if this is possible? Would it be honoured by ACPA? How that would affect the position pay situation, if by the time Jazz released you, your seniority was high enough to hold a slot outside the pay group. I know LOU 18 is an agreement between the AC and ACPA but it seems to have be modified several times in the last few years and I was just wondering if the most current version still reads the same way.

Thanks

WOW, I just posted NO CAN DO posting, but now deleted that before I had to eat some major feathered meal.

<pre>
LETTER OF UNDERSTANDING 18
between
AIR CANADA
and the
AIR CANADA PILOTS ASSOCIATION
TRANSITION OF CONNECTOR PILOTS
TO THE
AIR CANADA PILOTS SYSTEM SENIORITY LIST
It is hereby agreed that the opportunity of orderly advancement onto the Air Canada Pilots’
System Seniority List shall be made available to all pilots employed by Air Canada Connector
Airlines in accordance with the following provisions.
L18.01 It is acknowledged that the intent of this provision is for Air Canada to consider
offering positions to pilots from the Air Canada Connector Airlines, while respecting
the law and in particular the requirements of the Employment Equity Guidelines of the
Government of Canada.
L18.02 Pilots in L18.01 above will be offered position vacancies in order of seniority from the
Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines. This list will be compiled
subject to the Labour Laws of Canada.
L18.03 A pilot will be required:
L18.03.01 To meet the published basic requirements and minimum’s that relate to
employment with Air Canada as a pilot and to successfully complete the
assessment process.
L18.03.02 To meet the performance standards established by Air Canada that apply to
newly hired pilots.
L18.04 Pursuant to an agreement between the Air Canada Connector Airline and CALPA, a
pilot who fails to qualify for a position on the Air Canada Pilots’ System Seniority List
may have the option of returning to the position held at the Air Canada Connector
Airline.
L18.05 Subject to L18.03, a Connector pilot who applies for a vacancy offered in L18.01
whose Combined Connector Seniority entitles him to such a vacancy but whose
induction is delayed on the basis of L18.05.01 or L18.05.02 below, may have a
seniority number reserved for him on the Air Canada Pilots’ System Seniority List.
The respective time served as a pilot with the Connector Airline will be treated as Air
Canada service (excluding pension) when he joins Air Canada.
L18.05.01 If the pilot has not been on the current equipment and/or status with the
Connector Airline for 24 months Air Canada may delay his induction for up to the
remainder of the 24 month period. Information required to verify the application of
this provision will be provided in advance to the MEC Chairman, ACPA.
L18.05.02 Effective the date of ratification of this agreement, if a Management pilot at a
Connector Airline is essential to that airline for operational reasons, Air Canada
may delay his induction for up to six (6) months. This provision will be applied on
a case by case basis with prior mutual agreement between Air Canada and the
MEC Chairman, ACPA. Such agreement will not be unreasonably withheld.
LOU 18 - 2
L18.05.03 A Pilot joining Air Canada subsequent to the period of time specified in L18.05.01
and .02 above will be assigned a position, as determined by the CMSC, such that
no Air Canada pilot will be displaced from his base nor furloughed as a result.
L18.06 A pilot transitioning to Air Canada from an Air Canada Connector Airline will be paid in
accordance with Articles 3 through 10, as applicable.
L18.07 If there is a total sale or divestiture of any Air Canada Connector Airline, then the
pilots of that carrier will be removed from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada
Connector Airlines, subject to the Laws of Canada.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have signed this Letter of Understanding this 1st
day of November, 1998.
FOR: AIR CANADA FOR: AIR CANADA PILOTS ASSOCIATION
LOU 18 - 3
PAY CLARIFICATION TO TRANSITION/SENIORITY AGREEMENT
TRANSITION AGREEMENT/LOU 18 CLARIFICATION
The following list is provided to clarify how an individual’s benefits and employment conditions are
affected by Flight Staff Employment Date or the implementation of LOU18.05:
LOU 18.05 Implementation Date
Flight Staff Employment Date
1. Seniority number & date 1. Job (Position) selection (equip/base)
2. Flat Salary duration & amount 2. Air Canada insurance & benefit coverage
3. Formula pay commencement
4. New Hire Freeze expiry (Article 25.17)
5. Pass Service date & entitlement
6. Vacation entitlement (includes up to 4 yrs.
connector credit)
NOTE: This date will also govern all items listed under
L18.05 for any pilot not subject to L18.05.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have signed this Letter of Understanding this
day of , 2000.
FOR: AIR CANADA FOR: AIR CANADA PILOTS ASSOCIATION </pre>

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:55 am

Is this LOU still in effect?

balls · Post by **balls** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:47 am

Sure, that's a copy and paste from the current contract posted not too long ago on the ACPA members site.

I was surprised because I thought LOU 18 had been basically washed out. Not so, suprisingly.

I am more surprised that ACPA has negotiated any consideration for Jazz pilots. I am not saying that out of anger, but because any item that is in our contract has cost the AC pilots something, there is a cost for AC to everything the "give". Therefore current (or retired, because it might have been a pension item that was lost) AC pilots gave up something for Jazz pilots not yet hired at AC!!

Gurundu the Rat · Post by **Gurundu the Rat** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:26 am

Maybe it was the company that wanted LOU 18 at no cost to ACPA. This to comply with the Canadian labour laws as to not discriminate against a certain group and therefore not open themselves up to lawsuits. There doesn't always have to be a loser and a winner in contract negotiations. Some situations are win-win and this may be one of them...maybe.

bobcaygeon · Post by **bobcaygeon** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:17 am

There have been guys at Jazz get letters from Michel C. stating that they have been held till July 2007(2 years after RJ training)at Jazz but with a number at AC. AC hiring has confirmed this when called and should be sending out letters shortly. It is very new and just coming into being as it has been a long while since this has happened.

The guy I know at Jazz only found out he had passed everything at AC when he got the letter from Michel C. Then Mainline confirmed when called and said they would be sending a letter.

Gurundu the Rat · Post by **Gurundu the Rat** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:27 am

What if one were to downbid onto the Dash 8 on the next equipment bid while not position frozen but "Jazz to AC" frozen? Would such an individual be allowed to go to mainline at the Dash 8 training date?

balls · Post by **balls** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:57 am

bobcaygeon wrote:There have been guys at Jazz get letters from Michel C. stating that they have been held till July 2007(2 years after RJ training)at Jazz but with a number at AC. AC hiring has confirmed this when called and should be sending out letters shortly. It is very new and just coming into being as it has been a long while since this has happened.

The guy I know at Jazz only found out he had passed everything at AC when he got the letter from Michel C. Then Mainline confirmed when called and said they would be sending a letter.

It might be worth checking with ACPA!!! The caveat on that LOU is that the ACPA MEC Chair must approve that, and in each case. There's no indication that this can be a blanket approval of such action, and each case has to be documented. Each number must have a name attached.

The problem in 1995 was that AC blocked off numbers to be assigned later, to no one in particular. There were a couple of comments like 'put my 2 year old daughter's name on the list, and she'll activate the rights in 20 years' with the accrued seniority. An exaggeration, but that is really the core of the issue, which of course was not too far out of line with AC making the assumption that they controlled the seniority list.

If there is any sense of that right now, then the people that think that they have a seniority number might find that issue challenged later on. AC still needs ACPA approval. AC doesn't own, nor control the seniority list. That fact has already been determined.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:01 pm

Balls,

If one was to find themselves in the position of having a letter saying they had a number at AC, who would they contact at ACPA? I'm just wondering if the folks in human resources are aware that they need ACPA approval. I'm hoping they would, but these days you just never know!!!

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:51 pm

bobcaygeon wrote:There have been guys at Jazz get letters from Michel C. stating that they have been held till July 2007(2 years after RJ training)at Jazz but with a number at AC. AC hiring has confirmed this when called and should be sending out letters shortly. It is very new and just coming into being as it has been a long while since this has happened.

The guy I know at Jazz only found out he had passed everything at AC when he got the letter from Michel C. Then Mainline confirmed when called and said they would be sending a letter.

I would be very surprised if this was the case. The seniority numbers at Air Canada are not the airlines to give away. I don't doubt that the letter exists but the words are meaningless unless ACPA has approved such a thing. To my knowledge they haven't and won't. The company did this back in 1995 when I was hired. I was in the same boat, being held back due to recent training at Air Nova. AC telling me don't worry we have a number for you and it wasn't until I was in the jumpseat with an ACPA official that I learned the promise was an empty one.

Just be aware and do some homework.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:39 pm

ACPA HAS approved it because it is part of LOU 18.

In past years there was 2 times that Connector pilots had reserved numbers. Once it actually worked out for a few pilots and once it was overturned because it wasn't done properly.

L18.05 Subject to L18.03, a Connector pilot who applies for a vacancy offered in L18.01

whose Combined Connector Seniority entitles him to such a vacancy but whose

induction is delayed on the basis of L18.05.01 or L18.05.02 below, may have a

seniority number reserved for him on the Air Canada Pilots’ System Seniority List.

The respective time served as a pilot with the Connector Airline will be treated as Air

Canada service (excluding pension) when he joins Air Canada.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:51 pm

I think ACPA has approved the LOU but has put in the provision that each case must be approved by the ACPA MEC. At least thats the way I read it. On the same topic, if someone is held back for 2 yrs while holding a number at AC, could they hypothetically avoid the position pay group all together if their seniority would allow them to bid directly onto the Airbus? I'm afraid this could be opening a whole new can of worms.....

balls · Post by **balls** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:19 pm

bcflyer wrote:Balls,

If one was to find themselves in the position of having a letter saying they had a number at AC, who would they contact at ACPA? I'm just wondering if the folks in human resources are aware that they need ACPA approval. I'm hoping they would, but these days you just never know!!!

The process is not valid unless the individual is authenticated, the time frame per LOU 18, and approved for each case by ACPA. If AC unilaterally says you or anyone else has a number they are wrong, and there is a good chance it will be challenged by ACPA. This has been fought once before subsequent to 1995 hiring boom, and the individuals from the connectors got screwed, because - they believed AC and stayed at the connectors per the management request attempting to do the right thing, then because in many cases there was no names attached to the seniority number ACPA challenged it and AC lost.

The ruling did decide that AC does not own the seniority list. AC can only use the seniority list provided to them.

AC can hire, and fire. They can decide who AC can decide who is hired and who will go on the seniority list from the inductees, and who will not. AC can decide the method of establishing seniority upon hiring. They can not reserve numbers except as described in LOU 18. ACPA has to be involved in that, and it is not a blanket approval.

uncleron · Post by **uncleron** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:16 pm

Does anyone know what the pay is for a Jazz guy coming over.I know they carry 4 years sr. for pay and vacation, but what is that # on the Emb?

Thanks

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:00 pm

All new-hires get 2 years of flat pay.

Off the Street Basic flat pay 1 – 12th Month $3,111.31 ($37,335.72)
Off the Street Basic flat pay 13 – 24th Month $3,534.58 ($42,414.96)

BUT.... LOU 18 JAZZ pilots get "credit" for their JAZZ service:

....................Less than 2 years........2 years...... 3 years........ 4 years
1 – 12th Month_____ $3,111.31___ $3,670.10__ $3,849.17__ $4,028.18 ($48,338)
13 – 24th Month____ $3,534.58___ $3,849.17__ $4,028.18__ $4,207.28 ($50,487)

But better yet, LOU 18 JAZZ pilots start their 3rd year at level 7 pay. (with max 4 years credit)

7 year PG position is about $80/hr.

7 year 320 FO is about $98/hr.

7 year EMJ CA isabout $123/hr.

neophyte · Post by **neophyte** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:19 pm

Greetings,

Can someone explain what a "Jazzer" gets over an "off the streeter" when they get hired by mainline?

I have always wondered and this seems like the perfect chance to ask!

thanks

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:47 pm

It is basically all in the LOU 18 that is posted above.

They get up to 4 years credit for pay and vacation.

I believe they can also buy back some pension time......

WF9F · Post by **WF9F** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:25 pm

That, in my opinion, is not right.OTS'ers and Jazz guys started at the same time with Air Canada mainline.It does not matter if you worked at Jazz, it was not AC Mainline.There are to many fragmented groups in ACPA now , OAC vs. CP, and now OTS vs. Jazz.Maybe that is what is wanted from management. A strong group of pilots that could stand as one would be a formidable group to deal with.Is it fair that the same two guys, hired at exactly the same time, flying the same equipment we will be paid so differently?

Just my opinion,

WF9F

YULdude · Post by **YULdude** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:52 pm

WF9F,

OTS and Jazz pilots work together at mainline in harmony. There is no split between the 2, at least not in the 6 years I have been here. I'm with you on the strong group idea though. Maybe dual end-tail is the way?

from an OTSer.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:59 pm

WF9F wrote:That, in my opinion, is not right.OTS'ers and Jazz guys started at the same time with Air Canada mainline.It does not matter if you worked at Jazz, it was not AC Mainline.There are to many fragmented groups in ACPA now , OAC vs. CP, and now OTS vs. Jazz.Maybe that is what is wanted from management. A strong group of pilots that could stand as one would be a formidable group to deal with.Is it fair that the same two guys, hired at exactly the same time, flying the same equipment we will be paid so differently?

Just my opinion,

WF9F

I have to say that Jazz pilots contribute or have contributed to the bottom line at ACE. I think it is justified that a Jazz pilot be given some credit for that contribution.