WestJet strikes wingtip in YHZ

[2low]

excellent post.....now, I think this horse stopped moving a while ago. Don't you think?

[pika]

According to Clint23's posting above, the incident occurred on RWY 14 in YHZ, which is a CAT 1 ILS runway, therefore, AUTOLAND not an option (it has to be a CAT 2 or CAT 3 runway for autoland).

Autoland is an option off any ILS however the tolerances are only guaranteed under CAT II or III.

[onelargefoot]

Agreed PIKA. I guess I was referring to specifically the YHZ wx conditions at the time. In that case, AUTOLAND was not an option.

EDIT: I'd add the following to my above comments after checking the relevant FOM. "Autoland is AUTHORIZED for CAT 2 or CAT 3 ILS facilities. Cat 1 ILS signal may not be satisfactory. "

So from your post PIKA, you say AUTOLAND is an option off of any ILS. That would be true I suppose if you want to do something NOT authorized by the FOM. In that case, you're SOL I should think were something to transpire that leaves you explaining yourself in front of the Chief Pilot etc.

So my take would be, that CAT 1 ILS AUTOLAND is not an option. Regardless of wx conditions.

Cheers

[pika]

Agreed PIKA. I guess I was referring to specifically the YHZ wx conditions at the time. In that case, AUTOLAND was not an option.

EDIT: I'd add the following to my above comments after checking the relevant FOM. "Autoland is AUTHORIZED for CAT 2 or CAT 3 ILS facilities. Cat 1 ILS signal may not be satisfactory. "

So from your post PIKA, you say AUTOLAND is an option off of any ILS. That would be true I suppose if you want to do something NOT authorized by the FOM. In that case, you're SOL I should think were something to transpire that leaves you explaining yourself in front of the Chief Pilot etc.

So my take would be, that CAT 1 ILS AUTOLAND is not an option. Regardless of wx conditions.

I don't have access to your FOM but as I originally stated an autoland is available from any ILS. MAY NOT BE SATISFACTORY does not mean you cannot do it; it means you have to monitor the whole thing pretty close. Would you rather be in front of the CP explaining why you completed a successful autoland or why you scraped a wingtip? Your FOM quote does not explicitly state that you cannot do an autoland from a CAT I ILS.

[onelargefoot]

Your FOM quote does not explicitly state that you cannot do an autoland from a CAT I ILS.

The comment about unsatisfactory signal from a Cat 1 ILS is meant to give background as to why an AUTOLAND is unacceptable. It does not open up the possibility of actually doing an AUTOLAND.

The more appropriate line to highlight is:

Autoland is AUTHORIZED for CAT 2 or CAT 3 ILS facilities

Doing an AUTOLAND under any other condition is a liability that no professional pilot would open himself/herself to. IMHO.

AS for your statement:

Would you rather be in front of the CP explaining why you completed a successful autoland or why you scraped a wingtip?

well, I wasn't aware those were my choices.

No professional would carry out an "Unauthorized" AUTOLAND thinking it the better choice versus a manual landing in low vis conditions. If the low vis manual landing was considered not safe given the conditions, then the only prudent choice would be a divert to an alternate. I would clearly like to state that this is in no way a reference to any actual event that may have happened. Your reference to scraping a wingtip is yours alone. I'm responding to AUTOLAND conditions period.

By the way PIKA, do you fly Transport Category jets? Just curious...

[pika]

As I stated I don't have access to your FOM so I can't discuss what it says or does not.

My original statement that an autoland is available off any category ILS is valid. I have no interest in how your FOM further refines that statement.

Can you quote something from your FOM which says an autoland from a CAT I ILS is not authorized?

[onelargefoot]

I'll leave the discussion now my friend Pika. Suffice it to say, if you fly professionally you'd understand what "Authorized" means w.r.t the above statements. (No Cat 1 ILS Autolands for the NG.)

Happy manual landings

[pika]

Perhaps its an NG thing?

[737Driver]

The NG is capable of doing autolands on a Cat 1 ILS.

[WJ700]

The NG is capable of doing autolands on a Cat 1 ILS.

So are you saying you would elect to do a cat 1 ILS autoland IMC? How do you know the signal is protected from other aircraft and vehicles, or that you have an alternate power source? Autolands are only done to Cat 1 signals, on Cat 2 runways under VMC for WestJet's FOM.

[leftyxl]

I don't think that describing the contents of our fom on a public forum is a good idea. Use a little discretion here eh?

[Rebel]

I don't think that describing the contents of our fom on a public forum is a good idea. Use a little discretion here eh?

Why?? Do you have something to hide? The WJ FOM like everyone else's has to be approved by TC and becomes part of your operating licence. It's already in the public domain.

[195psi]

W

hy?? Do you have something to hide? The WJ FOM like everyone else's has to be approved by TC and becomes part of your operating licence. It's already in the public domain.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:13 am

Your such a troll.

[Rebel]

onelargefoot

You're right on the money however Boeing doesn't say you can't do an NG CAT 1 autoland but only adds the cautionary note that excursions could occur in high traffic areas. Many companies have now taken the precaution of disallowing the use of NG CAT 1 IMC autolands because of this possibility. WJ in conjunction with TC has also taken this approach and it's now part of the WJ operating license and as such CAT 1 IMC autoland is not authorized under the WJ FOM..

To get back to the original topic since the crew were not authorized to use the autoland system under the WJ FOM they didn’t use it, although it must have been tempting....

[onelargefoot]

Thanks for the info Rebel. I see as well that someone started a thread under the Tech section of PPrune, on this very matter. Similar comments to yours are posted there.

BTW, for those interested, SunWing's FOM (737-800) has the same restrictions I mentioned above, and the same verbiage in their FOM.

I don't think it would be tempting at all to use Autoland on a CAT 1 runway. The procedures and calls during an Autoland are different from a Cat 1 ILS, and the confusion that would result is enough to keep the average joe from even contemplating it.

Although maybe the SouthWest guys at Midway or the Air France 340 at YYZ might have preferred Autoland, on a "2nd" try...

[737Driver]

The NG is capable of doing autolands on a Cat 1 ILS.

So are you saying you would elect to do a cat 1 ILS autoland IMC? How do you know the signal is protected from other aircraft and vehicles, or that you have an alternate power source? Autolands are only done to Cat 1 signals, on Cat 2 runways under VMC for WestJet's FOM.

I said the airplane was capable, not sure how you read into it that I would do it. Now, I might be mistaken ( but I doubt it ) but I don't believe the signal changes when it is Cat 1, 2 or 3. I believe it is more about the protected area. Again, could be wrong. But yes, Autolands can be flown to a runway designed for Cat 2 or 3 during Cat 1 operations in VMC. I have done many of them but never to a runway designed for Cat 1 only. Now, speaking hypothetically (sp?), if you had some kind of emergency where you came to the decision that an autoland was your only option to a Cat 1 facility, the airplane is capable of doing it.

[onelargefoot]

an autoland was your only option

like when you're playing "I bet I can chop your hands off" with a flight attendant and losing, only to then learn your first officer had earlier lost as well.

Addendum: A little cheeky humour...seriously though, if you think of all of the hydraulic and electrical and engine malfunctions that make a second autopilot not available, the odds of even having the aircraft knowing its supposed to do an AUTOLAND (by engaging the 2nd autopilot) are remoter still (following some sort of calamity).

[737Driver]

[quote="onelargefoot"]
like when you're playing "I bet I can chop your hands off" with a flight attendant and losing, only to then learn your first officer had earlier lost as well.

quote]

So I'm not the only one to fall for that joke!!