Did the Uinited States of America deserve...

[Siddley Hawker]

I'll say this for you WRX. Unlike the other dozen gutless bastards who agreed that the victims of September 11th - whose only crime was getting up and going to work - deserved it, you at least had the balls to identify yourself.

[rotorhead350]

I'll say this for you WRX. Unlike the other dozen gutless bastards who agreed that the victims of September 11th - whose only crime was getting up and going to work - deserved it, you at least had the balls to identify yourself.

I voted yes too, but who said i agreed that any victims deserved it, and where do you get off saying that any of us are gutless, asshole. Its not there fault that the actions of their government caused their needless death...............................

[cyyz]

Your thoughts are so scattered and all over the place I'm not really sure what you're trying to say with everything. One thing is for sure, you're making ridiculous and baseless comparisons when you compare terrorism to the Nazi war machine.

No, it's a good comparison, everyone thought, oh those friendly Germans, we'll let them do anything they want, and after they had 1/3 of Europe and they invaded Poland they said, "oh shit" maybe we should do something and 20+ million deaths later.

To think it's just a small fringe group might be good and dandy for now, but they recruit daily, they don't have suicide bombers only, all over in other parts of the world they're normal people living amongst us donating to their cause and then they get brainwashed wasn't the London Bomber some Copmuter Tech? Or one of the WTC hijackers, he lived in the US for 20 YEARS, then got brainwashed.

Mocking the US who's trying to do something, sure with some slanted capitalistic goals on their side isn't gonna help.

We'll see or our great-great grand children will see how this all plays out.

Maybe it'll be the destruction of man.
Maybe someone will put a stop to it and we'll have peace and harmony and hopefully it'll be peace and harmony for all 5+ billion of us and not just for a few who survive some holocaust.

The US should have done something after the 1st, 2nd WTC attacks but they sat on their ass till the 3rd strike.

Or maybe the Chinese will sit by let the West destroy the ME and then they'll come and rule the world..

So looks like we're off to learn Chinese and I'll just read up on the Koran while I'm at it...

our predicament doesn't bode well....

PS. how did we get into this arguement?

[cyyz]

Its not there fault that the actions of their government caused their needless death...............................

They were gonna get it regardless of whatever the US did. It was the 3rd attack.

The only thing the US did wrong was it let it happen, because they didn't do anything the first 2 times.

Or didn't worry about anything when their embassies and ships were being blown up elsewhere.

The only way they could have had any chance of saying "oh we didn't do anything bad" was if they kept to isolationism and let world events unfold in other ways. Then we'd have new and different problems...

[shimmydampner]

PS. how did we get into this arguement?

I'm not quite sure, but I say we forget about it. It's obvious that neither of us will convince the other of anything anyway.

[shimmydampner]

I'll say this for you WRX. Unlike the other dozen gutless bastards who agreed that the victims of September 11th - whose only crime was getting up and going to work - deserved it, you at least had the balls to identify yourself.

I voted yes too, but who said i agreed that any victims deserved it, and where do you get off saying that any of us are gutless, asshole. Its not there fault that the actions of their government caused their needless death...............................

The wording of the question is pretty ambiguous and leaves the answers to it open to potentially wild interpretation. Did the victims deserve it, certainly not. Did the US government bring it on themselves with some of their international policies and "meddling" in affairs where they shouldn't? Perhaps.

**Political comic deleted**
Can be seen here, if you choose to view it and determine for yourself if it is offensive: http://xm.gnostika.org/art/latuff/Boomerang.gif

[LH]

shimmydampner -----I'm half American because my mother was American. I have approximately 400 member of my extended family who are Americans. I've lived there, did part of my university there, joined the American Armed Forces after coming back "home" to join the RCMP, have a son-in-law from Virgina and I'm here to tell you my "knowledgeable" friend that you are straight-out, bald-faced WRONG!!!.........and those that think like you also.

I don't know WHO your reccomended author is referring to, but he ISN'T referring to the above mentioned people......and they are spread-out over the USA from one corner to the next. I live 2 hours from a whole host of friends in North Dakota and another 5 hours from a whole bunch more in Minneapolis and the the differences in basic values are EXACTLY the same....to the letter. There's a ton of stuff that their various governments do that they don't agree with, the same as here......and they bitch about it the same as you and I do here. It ain't the "Planet of the Apes" as soon as you cross over that line on some map. You want differences on a vast majority of items compared to the way you think?........try talking to people from east coast to west coast in Canada and you'll find the same basic values, but wonder if you have crossed-into another country a whole host of times. The same goes for someone from New Orleans being compared to someone from Bend, OR........they live under the same flag and share the same basic values, but little else. Hell, a person will feel more "at home" going from Winnipeg to Grand Forks, ND than they will going Winnipeg to Calgary, AB. This is all punctuated for me because I was born and raised in NS and have called western Canada my "home" for most of my life.......and other than relatives in NS, I haven't a damn thing in common with any of them except a few "core" basic values. NS could be some place in southern Europe for all that I share in common with them...........yet I was born and raised there.

[LH]

While I was posting, Shimmydampner "crossed-over-the-line" with that picture. I had no idea at all that perhaps there were Canadians clapping their hands and cheering on the day of the WTC disaster. I had no idea either that the hatred of the US ran that deep that either on that occasion or afterwards, Canadians of any stripe could make jest of it in ANY way or form. All participation by me is now ended in this discussion. All further discussion with or pointed towards Shimmydampner on ANY part of this forum has also ended.

[Dust Devil]

While I was posting, Shimmydampner "crossed-over-the-line" with that picture. I had no idea at all that perhaps there were Canadians clapping their hands and cheering on the day of the WTC disaster. I had no idea either that the hatred of the US ran that deep that either on that occasion or afterwards, Canadians of any stripe could make jest of it in ANY way or form. All participation by me is now ended in this discussion. All further discussion with or pointed towards Shimmydampner on ANY part of this forum has also ended.

Ya that was pretty tasteless. It frightens me that there is so much anti americanism in this country. I'm quite confident that these people represent a very small minority in this country. Too bad they are just more vocal about their anti americanism. it's also too bad that the liberal government listens to people like shimmy when developing canadian foriegn policy.

[Dust Devil]

Its not there fault that the actions of their government caused their needless death...............................

They were gonna get it regardless of whatever the US did. It was the 3rd attack.

The only thing the US did wrong was it let it happen, because they didn't do anything the first 2 times.

Or didn't worry about anything when their embassies and ships were being blown up elsewhere.

The only way they could have had any chance of saying "oh we didn't do anything bad" was if they kept to isolationism and let world events unfold in other ways. Then we'd have new and different problems...

exactly. people forget that all this was being planned during clinton's administration. but bush takes the flack for it because he is doing something about it. Like him or not history is going to look favorably on bush. Just like Mulroney delt us the tough medicine we needed so is bush for his country.

[shimmydampner]

shimmydampner -----I'm half American because my mother was American. I have approximately 400 member of my extended family who are Americans. I've lived there, did part of my university there, joined the American Armed Forces after coming back "home" to join the RCMP, have a son-in-law from Virgina and I'm here to tell you my "knowledgeable" friend that you are straight-out, bald-faced WRONG!!!.........and those that think like you also.

I don't know WHO your reccomended author is referring to, but he ISN'T referring to the above mentioned people......and they are spread-out over the USA from one corner to the next.

Oh you're half-American and have American family members living in the States. Congratulations. I guess that means you're an expert on this subject. Just so you know, I too am a dual citizen and have family members living in the US as I stated before. And as I stated before, they feel that there is a difference in the way of life between the two countries, so much so that they have chosen to move to Canada in the next year.
And by the way, the book which I mentioned is referring to many more than 400 people spread out across the US. Read it and you'll find out.

While I was posting, Shimmydampner "crossed-over-the-line" with that picture. I had no idea at all that perhaps there were Canadians clapping their hands and cheering on the day of the WTC disaster. I had no idea either that the hatred of the US ran that deep that either on that occasion or afterwards, Canadians of any stripe could make jest of it in ANY way or form.

Well, I have removed the political cartoon out of deference to you, but I don't see how that is "crossing over the line." I have no hatred towards Americans and I feel that the WTC was a horrific tragedy. Maybe before you are so quick to be offended by something that was not meant in jest at all, you should put it in the context of my post. That was simply that perhaps rather than wording the question "did the US deserve it" it should have been worded "did the US international interventionist policies contribute to it." Hence the title of the boomerang in the building. It was not intended to make light of what happened, rather to comment on a potential contributing factor to it.
Interesting that you should be offended by satire, yet are not equally or more affronted by the flat-out incorrect, irresponsible and reprehensible presumption that Islam was responsible for the attack.

It frightens me that there is so much anti americanism in this country. I'm quite confident that these people represent a very small minority in this country. Too bad they are just more vocal about their anti americanism. it's also too bad that the liberal government listens to people like shimmy when developing canadian foriegn policy

You don't know the first thing about me, so you might as well forget about these assumptions you've made. I am not anti-American. I have great respect for the American people just as I have great respect for all cultures and peoples. I do disagree very strongly with their government's imperialistic aspirations, but that doesn't make me anti-American.

people forget that all this was being planned during clinton's administration. but bush takes the flack for it because he is doing something about it. Like him or not history is going to look favorably on bush. Just like Mulroney delt us the tough medicine we needed so is bush for his country.

Yeah, right. All hail the neo-cons, saviors of the world. Remind me again of the positive things Bush has done for his country and the world? Give your head a shake. If history looks favourably upon George W. it's only because of the age-old fact that those in power are the ones writing history.

[just clearing the trees]

people forget that all this was being planned during clinton's administration. but bush takes the flack for it because he is doing something about it.

Uh...what the hell are you talking about?

[Bede]

I keep hearing about this Canadian values/American values. Can some of you enlightened ones list some Canadian values and contrast them with American values?

[Dust Devil]

I keep hearing about this Canadian values/American values. Can some of you enlightened ones list some Canadian values and contrast them with American values?

That's what I asked then shimmy said he doesn't have to give examples

/shrug

[Yoyoma]

I keep hearing about this Canadian values/American values. Can some of you enlightened ones list some Canadian values and contrast them with American values?

You can't describe values as if they were shapes! We're talking about very suttle differences!



I'm sure, as Dust Devil said, that we could find a NWT fisherman who has similar values as an Indonesian fisherman. They probably value a lot of the same things and have a great respect for Nature and the sea...perhaps. But the values we’re talking about go beyond the simple patriotism, bushism or war in Iraq. I’m not going to be able to prove it to you, but I’m convinced that if we did massive street interviews with Canadians, Americans, French, British, etc. using the exact same questions, you would start seeing trends about mentalities, way of perceiving life, respect for nature or animals, capitalism, politics, religion, homosexuality, even freaking Geography…etc.

[shimmydampner]

That's what I asked then shimmy said he doesn't have to give examples

Actually, I just pointed out that you haven't provided any examples to back up your position either. I've suggested a book that can answer all of your calls for examples more fully and completely than I ever could, complete with socio-cultural maps produced from a decade's worth of research. Go to a library (that's a place where they loan you books for free) or book store and check it out if you're truly interested in learning something. Or you can just continue on your life with your head in the sand. But just because you're oblivious to something doesn't mean it's not so. Since you're having a tough time with words, here's a picture of what you're looking for:


Do you think that in Canada we would tolerate a political leader who believes that he is appointed by god and his actions are god's mandate? I'd say that's a pretty big difference right there.

Yoyoma just touched on the very thesis of this book.

[cyyz]

but I’m convinced that if we did massive street interviews with Canadians, Americans, French, British, etc. using the exact same questions, you would start seeing trends about mentalities, way of perceiving life, respect for nature or animals, capitalism, politics, religion, homosexuality, even freaking Geography…etc.

If you interviewed someone from Brampton and someone from Bathurst they(both living in GTA) would both state they believe in different religions.

All 4 of those countries have such a diverse system that people in Briton would have similair views as those in harlem, scarborough and wherever france had those riots recently.

Conversly you'd get alot of the same opinions of those people in Richmond Hill, Vancouver and wherever above countries have Asian people segregated.

Now if you ask a White man in Canada, A black man in America, a chinese man in Britain and Brown French Woman, guess what, you'll probably get different opinions....

I'll go find shimmy's author's book and see how they managed to do the study, but if they compared an apple to orange, I'm guessing the values would be different.

[just clearing the trees]

look just get to the nitty gritty of it you two(Yoyo and LH), does the Avg Canadian and American want

A roof over their head?
Food on their Plate?
Some education?
Some Health Care?
Some sort of "peace" community/provincially/around the world?

I'm sure we share those values with Americans, but values are not the only things that comprise a "way of life." It goes much deeper than and is much more sophisticated than that. If it were that simple, you could say we have the same way of life as all the starving biafrans in Nigeria since they no doubt want those things more desperately than us.

[Dust Devil]

200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img]

Do you think that in Canada we would tolerate a political leader who believes that he is appointed by god and his actions are god's mandate? I'd say that's a pretty big difference right there.

There you have it people. the thought process of the vocal minority that perpetuates the idea of anti americanism in this country. Tell me oh wise shimmy is that a line you read in your book?

[Dex]

200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img]

Do you think that in Canada we would tolerate a political leader who believes that he is appointed by god and his actions are god's mandate? I'd say that's a pretty big difference right there.

There you have it people. the thought process of the vocal minority that perpetuates the idea of anti americanism in this country. Tell me oh wise shimmy is that a line you read in your book?

Could you elaborate? I just want to make sure that you are not denying that Bush has said publiclly his actions come from God. Just in case, here's a four part video you should watch if you do not believe. His own words! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... esus/view/

[cyyz]

200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img]

Do you think that in Canada we would tolerate a political leader who believes that he is appointed by god and his actions are god's mandate? I'd say that's a pretty big difference right there.

There you have it people. the thought process of the vocal minority that perpetuates the idea of anti americanism in this country. Tell me oh wise shimmy is that a line you read in your book?

Could you elaborate? I just want to make sure that you are not denying that Bush has said publiclly his actions come from God. Just in case, here's a four part video you should watch if you do not believe. His own words! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... esus/view/

and last time I checked 49% of those who voted, voted for Democratic Kerry? So explain how their "values" have magically changed once the guy they voted for lost?

[shimmydampner]

200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img]

Do you think that in Canada we would tolerate a political leader who believes that he is appointed by god and his actions are god's mandate? I'd say that's a pretty big difference right there.

There you have it people. the thought process of the vocal minority that perpetuates the idea of anti americanism in this country. Tell me oh wise shimmy is that a line you read in your book?

No, but I like your attitude. Who needs all that book-learnin' anyways? Just listen to good ol' Dust Devil, he knows everything.

You asked me for an example to back up my opinion. I gave you a reference far more valuable and insightful than anything I could put forth, in large part, because you would quite obviously discard anything I said anyway. In short, I provided you with more than you asked for and yet you persist.

At least you have one thing going for you: your consistency in ignoring things that don't fit with a particular point that you're trying to get across. In this particular case, ignoring my earlier statements regarding the respect I (as someone who is a dual citizen) have for the American people and in fact, all peoples and cultures. This is obviously more than can be said for you, since you are apparently of the mindset that those who disagree with you are, simply by virtue of disagreeing with you, wrong each and every time.

To return to your question, no that is not a line I read in a book. It is a piece of information that would be common knowledge to anyone who followed the controversies surrounding George W. and his administration, and to anyone who had the motivation to do even the most cursory research and reading regarding the topic. To tell me that I am incorrect and that my thought process is somehow flawed, only speaks to your ignorance of this particular issue and your pretensiousness on the whole. It has nothing to do with my thought process and everything to do with what George W. Bush has been quoted as saying.

Since you apparently don't view reading as a valid source of learning and gathering information to base opinions on, perhaps the videos on the site Dex posted will give you some insight. A quote from that site:

"The day he was inaugurated there were several of us who met with him at the governor's mansion," says Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission. "And among the things he said to us was, 'I believe that God wants me to be president.'"

[Dex]

There you have it people. the thought process of the vocal minority that perpetuates the idea of anti americanism in this country. Tell me oh wise shimmy is that a line you read in your book?

Could you elaborate? I just want to make sure that you are not denying that Bush has said publiclly his actions come from God. Just in case, here's a four part video you should watch if you do not believe. His own words! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... esus/view/

and last time I checked 49% of those who voted, voted for Democratic Kerry? So explain how their "values" have magically changed once the guy they voted for lost?

Huh?

[Sulako]

Umm is it just me who noticed that the entire premise of this poll is screwed up?

The US wasn't attacked by Islam any more than Iraq was attacked by Christianity.


Islam is a religion of peace, just like Christianity. And it can be twisted by hateful people, just like Christianity.

I'm not voting on the poll cause the question is fundamentally incorrect.

[Guido]

Bang on, Sulako. I'd like to buy you a beer sometime!