FYI When Jazz closed its marketing department (because AC does it now) Jazz marketing people went to AC and recieved their years of service for pay, vacation, etc.
Also when AC stations in places such as YQR,YXE, YQT, etc were turned to Jazz stations last year, the AC employee's were given the option to work for Jazz bring their years of service, pay, and benefits with them.
AC Hiring question from a Jazzer
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
OK listen up tier 2 trash! You can wine all you want about what you deserve but the reality is that "Scope" isn't a mouthwash its the hand cuff you must live with and after the attempted end run your management tried during CCAA good luck getting it revoked!!!
And for the guys who want to come over, leave your feelings of entitlement at Jazz!
And for the guys who want to come over, leave your feelings of entitlement at Jazz!
Before I answer sober up.
The hammer, good points there.
WF9F. You may not agree with LOU18 but the reality is, it is a fact of life not because of Jazz, but because of ACPA and AC. We were not there when that contract was negotiated. Maybe ask your ACPA rep why the Jazz pilots enjoy such luxuries.
Now for that pinhead sober up.
Don't talk to me about CCAA underhandings. We know that ACPA tried their best to get rid of JAZZ during that period and failed. Too bad for you icehole. We are grwoing bigger than ever and it is thanks to your airplanes and your routes. As a company, jazz costs less and the new AC is about making money.
I did however notice that you jumped into a hiring thread and started spouting off about scope blah blah. Maybe you need to sober up!
As for what Jazz pilots think they deserve vs OTS, it doesn't really matter now does it. Thanks to ACPA, LOU 18 is still alive and strong.
Scope this
The hammer, good points there.
WF9F. You may not agree with LOU18 but the reality is, it is a fact of life not because of Jazz, but because of ACPA and AC. We were not there when that contract was negotiated. Maybe ask your ACPA rep why the Jazz pilots enjoy such luxuries.
Now for that pinhead sober up.
CLAP CLAP CLAP. Ahhhh, there, a real representative of the ACPA group. Hey shithead, in case you haven't noticed, your scope clause has a wider hole than your mouth in it. Have you noticed Jazz is flying new 705s, new 200s and this is the best one, YOUR CRJ 100s around? WTG SCOPE!!! What was your original position again? "No jets for Jazz"? Close, but you were off by 73 jets and who knows how many more. Remember, Tepltisky decides where any further jets end up. Kind of like the 8 we got this year that were not in the original award.OK listen up tier 2 trash! You can wine all you want about what you deserve but the reality is that "Scope" isn't a mouthwash its the hand cuff you must live with and after the attempted end run your management tried during CCAA good luck getting it revoked!!!
Don't talk to me about CCAA underhandings. We know that ACPA tried their best to get rid of JAZZ during that period and failed. Too bad for you icehole. We are grwoing bigger than ever and it is thanks to your airplanes and your routes. As a company, jazz costs less and the new AC is about making money.
I did however notice that you jumped into a hiring thread and started spouting off about scope blah blah. Maybe you need to sober up!
As for what Jazz pilots think they deserve vs OTS, it doesn't really matter now does it. Thanks to ACPA, LOU 18 is still alive and strong.
Scope this
Traf,
I know you were replying to Soberup, but dude, where did you get that attitude? It's no wonder we are in a race to the bottom. How can you take pride in the missery of others? We (ACPA) have a scope clause to protect our jobs, and you seem to take pride in being able to prevent that, with the direct result being less new hires at AC! Would you like it if Tier3 operators suddenly bought some Dash-8s and took over your routes and jobs? I didn't think so.
Enjoy your career, hopefully it won't be one at AC (saying this because we don't need the kind of attitude you are displaying).
I know you were replying to Soberup, but dude, where did you get that attitude? It's no wonder we are in a race to the bottom. How can you take pride in the missery of others? We (ACPA) have a scope clause to protect our jobs, and you seem to take pride in being able to prevent that, with the direct result being less new hires at AC! Would you like it if Tier3 operators suddenly bought some Dash-8s and took over your routes and jobs? I didn't think so.
Enjoy your career, hopefully it won't be one at AC (saying this because we don't need the kind of attitude you are displaying).
Yuldude. It is only in response to the small pea sized brain clowns like sober up. Yeah your scope protects your work and since you insist on scoping the nuts off us, we have to fight back. It is common knowledge that ACPA tried to run us out of town during CCAA. Are we supposed to sit back and do nothing? Management is playing these 2 groups like a 5 dollar fiddle. You can whine that we stole your protected flying and we can whine that without it, Jazz would be worthless. Fact is, until both groups get working on the same page, this is the way it will be. Don't make it sound like ACPA is all righteous and has done nothing but fight for the good of pilotkind. In the race to the bottom, they were kneck and kneck with us. Too bad both unions are too busy trying to prove they can beat the other rather than solve the problem. Oh and don't worry about T3. They have taken their share of flying and from what I hear are operating D8s with the use of some codeshare/sidestep/ move that AC finaggled. :
As for sober up:
Remember to wave at me when I taxi by wearing your JOB!!!
rcass
Yeah, sober up is more the kind of guy AC needs. He is a perfect AC type.Enjoy your career, hopefully it won't be one at AC (saying this because we don't need the kind of attitude you are displaying).
As for sober up:
Oh I see how it works now. So you guys told AC to give away 25 of YOUR airframes and allow us to have a total of 73 jets including 90 seat airframes (that's really what a 705 is). Well, if that is the case, you are dumber than I ever thought. You gave away hundreds of seniority numbers, a bunch of airframes and gave made up a B scale pay to @#$! the newhires in the process. BRAVO!!!!! HURRAH FOR ACPA AND IT"S GENIUS. Fact is, your statement is just the trife the bitter twisted old pricks like you have to tell yourself when you look in the mirror. You can't say for one second that ACPA didin't fight like hell to get all the jets at mainline. You lost. Now suck it up (that is something I am sure you'd be good at).I'll just say that you will only get the bones ACPA throughs you!
Remember to wave at me when I taxi by wearing your JOB!!!
rcass
Last edited by Traf on Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Heh, heh...when you sober up, review your post. Then, come up with some facts to substantiate your wild assed claim that ACPA tried to sink Jazz in CCAA. You are making unsubstantiated and unsupportable claims about what went on in CCAA!Traf wrote:Yuldude. It is only in response to the small pea sized brain clowns like sober up. Yeah your scope protects your work and since you insist on scoping the nuts off us, we have to fight back. It is common knowledge that ACPA tried to run us out of town during CCAA. Are we supposed to sit back and do nothing? Management is playing these 2 groups like a 5 dollar fiddle. You can whine that we stole your protected flying and we can whine that without it, Jazz would be worthless. Fact is, until both groups get working on the same page, this is the way it will be. Don't make it sound like ACPA is all righteous and has done nothing but fight for the good of pilotkind. In the race to the bottom, they were kneck and kneck with us. Too bad both unions are too busy trying to prove they can beat the other rather than solve the problem. Oh and don't worry about T3. They have taken their share of flying and from what I hear are operating D8s with the use of some codeshare/sidestep/ move that AC finaggled. :Yeah, sober up is more the kind of guy AC needs. He is a perfect AC type.Enjoy your career, hopefully it won't be one at AC (saying this because we don't need the kind of attitude you are displaying).
As for sober up:Oh I see how it works now. So you guys told AC to give away 25 of YOUR airframes and allow us to have a total of 73 jets including 90 seat airframes (that's really what a 705 is). Well, if that is the case, you are dumber than I ever thought. You gave away hundreds of seniority numbers, a bunch of airframes and gave made up a B scale pay to @#$! the newhires in the process. BRAVO!!!!! HURRAH FOR ACPA AND IT"S GENIUS. Fact is, your statement is just the trife the bitter twisted old pricks like you have to tell yourself when you look in the mirror. You can't say for one second that ACPA didin't fight like hell to get all the jets at mainline. You lost. Now suck it up (that is something I am sure you'd be good at).I'll just say that you will only get the bones ACPA throughs you!
Remember to wave at me when I taxi by wearing your JOB!!!
Truth be known, ACPA , that is me, us, the AC pilots were hanging on wondering WTF is next and it was more to wonder if we said "NO" would the company fold altogther.
There was little thought about Jazz in much sense at all as far as I could tell. The Rovinescu blindside was a real kick in the nuts, and probably had the AC pilots had the balls - and probably then, and at numerous other points - we should have put down the tools if we could, even to risk the liquidation of AC.
But you know, and I know, and AC management knows, that a mortgage in YVR or YYZ and two kids in university, it is highly unlikely that most pilots at AC would take that chance.
You make some really wild assed claims that are totally without any foundation in fact or the actual history of the events as they unfolded. Y
ou appear to have some sort of urban Jazz myth behind your posting because I can not believe that you came up with that all on your own. Mythbusters! Your myth is busted. You are no being factual in your assertions here.
Re-post when the vino tinto wears off.
You're a real piece of work aren't you balls??. ACPA's JetRUS proposal made during CCAA is in the public domain. It was real and pathetic. Just about as pathetic as your attempt to run away from another bit of inexcusable behaviour.
FYI: CR had the Jazz contract force fed to him by a couple of guys called M&M. He had no intention of signing. He just wanted to beat you idiots over the head with it. All in the fine tradition of AC labour relations. Didn't work for him tho just as Jet R US was laughed out of the room for you.
Do you have a hint of a clue where LOU 17 and 18 came from??..
In what context they were authored, negotiated and implimented???. If you do you sure would never know it by the flatulance you've let rip around here. But you do have an agenda to advance and as anyone who has dealt with your ilk knows that the ACPA mantra is "Tell a lie often enough it will come to be believed as the truth." Spin the arse out 'er boy.. It's the only talent you really seem to have.
Now step away from daddy's computer,,, you're too young to play.
[/quote]
Heh, heh...when you sober up, review your post. Then, come up with some facts to substantiate your wild assed claim that ACPA tried to sink Jazz in CCAA. You are making unsubstantiated and unsupportable claims about what went on in CCAA!
Truth be known, ACPA , that is me, us, the AC pilots were hanging on wondering WTF is next and it was more to wonder if we said "NO" would the company fold altogther.
There was little thought about Jazz in much sense at all as far as I could tell. The Rovinescu blindside was a real kick in the nuts, and probably had the AC pilots had the balls - and probably then, and at numerous other points - we should have put down the tools if we could, even to risk the liquidation of AC.
But you know, and I know, and AC management knows, that a mortgage in YVR or YYZ and two kids in university, it is highly unlikely that most pilots at AC would take that chance.
You make some really wild assed claims that are totally without any foundation in fact or the actual history of the events as they unfolded. Y
ou appear to have some sort of urban Jazz myth behind your posting because I can not believe that you came up with that all on your own. Mythbusters! Your myth is busted. You are no being factual in your assertions here.
Re-post when the vino tinto wears off.[/quote]
FYI: CR had the Jazz contract force fed to him by a couple of guys called M&M. He had no intention of signing. He just wanted to beat you idiots over the head with it. All in the fine tradition of AC labour relations. Didn't work for him tho just as Jet R US was laughed out of the room for you.
Do you have a hint of a clue where LOU 17 and 18 came from??..
In what context they were authored, negotiated and implimented???. If you do you sure would never know it by the flatulance you've let rip around here. But you do have an agenda to advance and as anyone who has dealt with your ilk knows that the ACPA mantra is "Tell a lie often enough it will come to be believed as the truth." Spin the arse out 'er boy.. It's the only talent you really seem to have.
Now step away from daddy's computer,,, you're too young to play.
[/quote]
Heh, heh...when you sober up, review your post. Then, come up with some facts to substantiate your wild assed claim that ACPA tried to sink Jazz in CCAA. You are making unsubstantiated and unsupportable claims about what went on in CCAA!
Truth be known, ACPA , that is me, us, the AC pilots were hanging on wondering WTF is next and it was more to wonder if we said "NO" would the company fold altogther.
There was little thought about Jazz in much sense at all as far as I could tell. The Rovinescu blindside was a real kick in the nuts, and probably had the AC pilots had the balls - and probably then, and at numerous other points - we should have put down the tools if we could, even to risk the liquidation of AC.
But you know, and I know, and AC management knows, that a mortgage in YVR or YYZ and two kids in university, it is highly unlikely that most pilots at AC would take that chance.
You make some really wild assed claims that are totally without any foundation in fact or the actual history of the events as they unfolded. Y
ou appear to have some sort of urban Jazz myth behind your posting because I can not believe that you came up with that all on your own. Mythbusters! Your myth is busted. You are no being factual in your assertions here.
Re-post when the vino tinto wears off.[/quote]
Last edited by RussD on Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
RussD and Traf,
Fact is the MJFC (jetsRus) only came to be in Sept 2003 AFTER ALPA and CR tried to cut a deal in May 2003 to get our a/c. We were only looking to keep our jobs and fend off YOUR attack!
As for the race to the bottom, you're right, we are both (ACPA & ALPA) to blame, but at least ACPA is trying to help. Another Fact is that in July 2005 ACPA extended the olive branch to ALPA and it was turned down. To be truthfull, there were 3 point that had to be met:
1.) In the integration of any pilot list, Jazz pilots shall join the Air Canada Mainline Seniority list at the bottom of the list; (basically a complex “end tail” that would protect both side jobs)
2.) The new Bargaining unit must be voted on by all members and;
3.) The Air Ontario lawsuit must be droped.
ALPA rejected it in Aug!
Fact is the MJFC (jetsRus) only came to be in Sept 2003 AFTER ALPA and CR tried to cut a deal in May 2003 to get our a/c. We were only looking to keep our jobs and fend off YOUR attack!
As for the race to the bottom, you're right, we are both (ACPA & ALPA) to blame, but at least ACPA is trying to help. Another Fact is that in July 2005 ACPA extended the olive branch to ALPA and it was turned down. To be truthfull, there were 3 point that had to be met:
1.) In the integration of any pilot list, Jazz pilots shall join the Air Canada Mainline Seniority list at the bottom of the list; (basically a complex “end tail” that would protect both side jobs)
2.) The new Bargaining unit must be voted on by all members and;
3.) The Air Ontario lawsuit must be droped.
ALPA rejected it in Aug!
Whoa Whoa whoa big guy. Read what you wrote. How disengenuous is it to place a precondition to a negotiation??. Now lets add to that, the fact that at least one of those PRE conditions was totally beyond the ability of the other party to deliver. Maybe you are that naive to believe that what ACPA did was OK. (Like what' wrong wid dat eh???) Anybody who has dealt in good faith, knows when someone has spit in their face. The ACPA gob is still dripping off the face of the Jazz collective.
In regard to the the ALPA (JAZZ) scope agreement that the courts modified, and accepted after 'convincing' the signatures to do so,,, what the phuck did you think was going to happen??? CCAA effectively (albiet not as effectively as C11 in the USA) put your contract, our contract, everyones contract in the shredder hopper (that included your scope language son).
When CCAA appeared to be imminent in early 03 ( I mean Jan-Feb). ALPA chose to negotiate for the survival of it's members. ACPA told the company to phuck off. This isn't secret stuff. Everyone was quite proud of their respective positions at the time as they all made sure to tell the whole planet about it. ALPA (JAZZ) chose to include an olive branch to ACPA via the courts to mitigate the labour consequences of their agreement hence the genesus of the 'Global Solution" and indirectley the Small Jet agreement. ACPA chose "JETRUS kill the feeders as their "Final Solution"
You guys chose to have two pilot groups represented by two unions living in the same house years ago.. IT WAS YOUR CHOICE,,YOUR DEMAND. You spend millions to achieve it and have continued to spend tens maybe hundreds of millions to sustain it. Good for you. It's what you wanted ,,you got it ,,,now we all live with the consequences of YOUR agenda. One of those consequences is the natural right and necessity of the 'other group' to try and ensure it can survive and hopefully thrive within the phucked up house YOU created. Inevitably when either group does so it is will be at the expense of the other. No mystery there. You fellas should know that is the inevitable consequence of the the decision you took all those years ago.
If you don't like the result of your actions,,do the grown up thing and look at what YOU did to create the result. ALPA didn't reject your advance, they merely confirmed they were unable to meet conditions you allready knew they couldn't. Don't insult the intelligence of the community by portraying events other than that.
In regard to the the ALPA (JAZZ) scope agreement that the courts modified, and accepted after 'convincing' the signatures to do so,,, what the phuck did you think was going to happen??? CCAA effectively (albiet not as effectively as C11 in the USA) put your contract, our contract, everyones contract in the shredder hopper (that included your scope language son).
When CCAA appeared to be imminent in early 03 ( I mean Jan-Feb). ALPA chose to negotiate for the survival of it's members. ACPA told the company to phuck off. This isn't secret stuff. Everyone was quite proud of their respective positions at the time as they all made sure to tell the whole planet about it. ALPA (JAZZ) chose to include an olive branch to ACPA via the courts to mitigate the labour consequences of their agreement hence the genesus of the 'Global Solution" and indirectley the Small Jet agreement. ACPA chose "JETRUS kill the feeders as their "Final Solution"
You guys chose to have two pilot groups represented by two unions living in the same house years ago.. IT WAS YOUR CHOICE,,YOUR DEMAND. You spend millions to achieve it and have continued to spend tens maybe hundreds of millions to sustain it. Good for you. It's what you wanted ,,you got it ,,,now we all live with the consequences of YOUR agenda. One of those consequences is the natural right and necessity of the 'other group' to try and ensure it can survive and hopefully thrive within the phucked up house YOU created. Inevitably when either group does so it is will be at the expense of the other. No mystery there. You fellas should know that is the inevitable consequence of the the decision you took all those years ago.
If you don't like the result of your actions,,do the grown up thing and look at what YOU did to create the result. ALPA didn't reject your advance, they merely confirmed they were unable to meet conditions you allready knew they couldn't. Don't insult the intelligence of the community by portraying events other than that.
YULdude wrote:RussD and Traf,
Fact is the MJFC (jetsRus) only came to be in Sept 2003 AFTER ALPA and CR tried to cut a deal in May 2003 to get our a/c. We were only looking to keep our jobs and fend off YOUR attack!
As for the race to the bottom, you're right, we are both (ACPA & ALPA) to blame, but at least ACPA is trying to help. Another Fact is that in July 2005 ACPA extended the olive branch to ALPA and it was turned down. To be truthfull, there were 3 point that had to be met:
1.) In the integration of any pilot list, Jazz pilots shall join the Air Canada Mainline Seniority list at the bottom of the list; (basically a complex “end tail” that would protect both side jobs)
2.) The new Bargaining unit must be voted on by all members and;
3.) The Air Ontario lawsuit must be droped.
ALPA rejected it in Aug!
Last edited by RussD on Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
For balls and YULdude. If you think your actions (ACPA's) in CCAA or now even, have any level of confidentiality, you are kidding yourselves. The ACPA is a fractured and in my opinion increasingly ineffective private lobby group for a select group of it's members. There are getting to be as many people inside the organization as outside, who see it's current nature much as the Canadian electorat sees the current Liberal party. It's a damn shame that the piloting profession in this country has had to sustaine the ravaging the 243 exacted to protect their own narrow interest
BTW thanks for confirming Balls was full of shite in denying the existance of the JETRUS atrocity.
BTW thanks for confirming Balls was full of shite in denying the existance of the JETRUS atrocity.
As I've ranted before, it is unreasonable and disingenuous to make a condition which is totally outside the realm of control as a pre-cursor to this negotiation. Trying to extort a resolution to a private lawsuit as part of GS was an attempt to a) kill the GS process before it started b) create infighting in the Jazz group.
ACPA reaps what it sows.
ACPA reaps what it sows.
Couldn't have said it better myself even if I didn'tRyan Coke wrote:As I've ranted before, it is unreasonable and disingenuous to make a condition which is totally outside the realm of control as a pre-cursor to this negotiation. Trying to extort a resolution to a private lawsuit as part of GS was an attempt to a) kill the GS process before it started b) create infighting in the Jazz group.
ACPA reaps what it sows.
This action is systematic of the obvious continuance of the ACPA agenda to decieve, exclude, and divide the community if it results in a minute benefit today. regardless of the mortagage you've signed on to. Win today at all cost,, blame someone else tomorrow. It's just so predicatable, absolutely void of principal.Interesting question. When YYC Jazz heavy maintenace work was transfered to ACTS the JAZZ employees effected there integrated DOH. FYI. the courts (aka) labor board determined AC and what is now known as Jazz were common employer years ago. IE the objective criteria to say that one entity excerted common control and direction was confirmed at least 15 closer to 20 years ago. The only issue was what was and has not been accepted by the Board is the notion that having multiple bargaining units doing the same work for the same employer is counter to good labor relations.WF9F wrote:The common perception that AC Jazz is the same company as AC mainline is where the root of the discussions always seem to revolve around.Some say it is ( all Jazz guys) and some say it isn't. Yes, ACE is the umbrella that covers AC mainline, Jazz, Aeroplan, and ACTS. and in my opinion, all the above are different companies.
Can't recall what for sure was decided in court, maybe someone could shed some light there?
Would anyone know if an AME from Jazz came to AC mainline would they carry the same perks as the pilots?or for that matter switching between any of the above.
Maybe we will just have to agree to disagree.
ACPA's position is central to the the board's conclusion, in that ACPA have consistently maintained they would have the 'Mother of all hissy fits, even greater than the hissy fit we will lay on if Keller is not overturned , if you make us accept the feeders into the fold" That position abetted by management has succeeded in keeping the piloting profession divided and at odds with each other.
WOW!
Gee, I came on here to trash the WJ'ers and now I get to witness the evolution of the airline pilot extrordanaire.
If you bozo's have any kids let them read your posts... No I guess not, that would be too embarrassing! How about your spouse... Unless your spouse is a pilot as well you would be laughed out of the house... Maybe even then!
I know, maybe let your golf buddies have a look at these remarkable posts you cat's are publishing.
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!
I am guessing that none of you geniuses would ever post your real names either huh! The beauty of an anonomous board.
Well, I for one am going to continue to believe that some 12 year olds have hijacked dad's computer and that real professionals don't think like the infants in this thread.
Like I said, WOW!
If you bozo's have any kids let them read your posts... No I guess not, that would be too embarrassing! How about your spouse... Unless your spouse is a pilot as well you would be laughed out of the house... Maybe even then!
I know, maybe let your golf buddies have a look at these remarkable posts you cat's are publishing.
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!
I am guessing that none of you geniuses would ever post your real names either huh! The beauty of an anonomous board.
Well, I for one am going to continue to believe that some 12 year olds have hijacked dad's computer and that real professionals don't think like the infants in this thread.
Like I said, WOW!
"I am not a crook" Richard Nixon
sober up said
I may never be greated with, "congrats, you are now amongst the ELITE". Sad, but true. I can however do so by choice and sleep quite well at night thank you. You see, your little dick and small ego have forced you to beleive all the bullshit you hear in the crewroom. I did however get a chuckle out of your previous post that stated that Jazz gets what ACPA throws to them. HAHA Whne are you going to give us another 73 planes? I like your strategy though. Open the floadgates and give us 73 jets that we couldn't have had before. Alow us to grow into a big enough airline that ACE can really use us to whip your asses come the next round of negots. How low are you willing to go to keep the EMB? Real smart Sober. I guess your master plan is really falling into place. I thought you were dumb, but to say that you chose to give us all that flying, is by far the dumbest thing you have said yet. How much dumber can you get? Come on, my buddies are placing wagers on it now.
See that is the difference between you and I. You need to be called an AC pilot and told by your peers that you are in the "BIG LEAGUES". What is the matter, when God was handing out inches, you got left short a few? As for you figuring anything out, I wouldn't hold my breath. 1. You ar etoo stupid to figure out anything more copmplex than the lid to the cheerios, 2 you are not even close. No I haven't failed my AC interview. That is every AC pilots answer to a Jazz pilot that won't take shit from them. "Oh he musta been turned down by AC. He is not as superior as us. BLAH BLAH BLAH".Hey Traf I figured it out, you failed your AC interview! I'm sorry to hear that. Looks like a good career of tier2 flying ahead of you. But hey not everyone can make it to the big leagues!
I may never be greated with, "congrats, you are now amongst the ELITE". Sad, but true. I can however do so by choice and sleep quite well at night thank you. You see, your little dick and small ego have forced you to beleive all the bullshit you hear in the crewroom. I did however get a chuckle out of your previous post that stated that Jazz gets what ACPA throws to them. HAHA Whne are you going to give us another 73 planes? I like your strategy though. Open the floadgates and give us 73 jets that we couldn't have had before. Alow us to grow into a big enough airline that ACE can really use us to whip your asses come the next round of negots. How low are you willing to go to keep the EMB? Real smart Sober. I guess your master plan is really falling into place. I thought you were dumb, but to say that you chose to give us all that flying, is by far the dumbest thing you have said yet. How much dumber can you get? Come on, my buddies are placing wagers on it now.
1. you are right and we both agree that the race was kneck and kneckAs for the race to the bottom, you're right, we are both (ACPA & ALPA) to blame, but at least ACPA is trying to help. Another Fact is that in July 2005 ACPA extended the olive branch to ALPA and it was turned down. To be truthfull, there were 3 point that had to be met:
1.) In the integration of any pilot list, Jazz pilots shall join the Air Canada Mainline Seniority list at the bottom of the list; (basically a complex “end tail” that would protect both side jobs)
2.) The new Bargaining unit must be voted on by all members and;
3.) The Air Ontario lawsuit must be droped.
The only person ACPA is trying to help is itself. The 1st 2 points points are probably viewed as acceptable by both sides but number 3 is not. That kind of precondition was a guaranteed failure item. For one, ALPA does not control that lawsuit. Yes, some of ALPA's members are involved but they are less than 10% of it's memebership and they fund the suit out of their own pockets. ALPA, has nothing to do with it. They don't fund it. They don't provide lawyers, infact, ALPA national turned their back on this group when they did ask them for assistance. This is a PRIVATE suit. The other 90% at Jazz could give a shit about it. It doesn't involve me nor would I want to get involved. frankly, I can't stand sitting in the cockpit listeneing to someone who has hung their hopes and dreams on it go on and on and on.
ACPA also knows that the suit is a PRIVATE matter but they have chosen to use everyone's dues to fight it. If I was a CDN or a new hire, I wouldn't be too happy about that. ACPA is the one holding the GS hostage by using it to try and have a private suit that involves SOME of their members dropped. This is not an olive branch, this is a thorny twig. If they really wanted to talk GS, they would do so in good faith and not attach personal agenda preconditions to it. Yes the lawsuit must be a pain inthe ass to them, but that has nothing to do with ALPA/ACPA talks. That has to do with 100 or so former AO employees and the 1300 (my numbers may be off) former AC pilots.
Regardless, it is just another excuse for nothing to get done. In the meantime, ACE must be smiling like mad because they have driven both sides wages down a fair bit and they still have their ultimate weapon, 2 groups that would do anything to undercut each other. Status quo. Next round?:axe:
You know what whipline, me too. The reality is, ACE has done a wonderful job of making both sides lower their drawers to save their own hide. In the end, what exactly are we saving? The ailrine? Our jobs? At what cost? You now have jazz people flying 75 seats for less than we used to fly 36. AC pilots are driving EMB's for peanuts compared to what they would have made ona a DC9.It makes me cringe everytime I hear an argument "we are cheaper to operate." Now back to your corners and come out swinging!!
I know I have said this before, but as long as the 2 groups sit on different sides of the fence, the whipsawing will never stop. Yeah the Jazz guys are basking in the glory of aquiring 73 jets and AC is basking in the glory of a huge hiring spree, 777s and 787s on the horizon, but the sad truth is, there will be more negotiations. Eaach side will win their little battles while the whole bunch continue to lose the war.
Is theer a GS? I don't know. At this point it would seem that getting the 2 groups together might stop the whipsawing but I think the chances of both sides ever growing up and actually sitting down without rehashing the bullshit from the past is most unlikely.
This months ALPA magazine had an interesting article on how US operators are using outside carriers to strngarm their regionals into giving concessions right after they gave CH11 concessions. Sounds funny to the mailine guys but the article also warns that once they have dropped the Regionals by an even greater amount, they will next be gowing after the mainlines to close the gap. Could it happen here? Ohhh , I think so.
