Countable as Cross-Country?

FL_CH · Post by **FL_CH** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:39 pm

I have a question

For the past 15 flight hours i've been mostly taking people up for flights around GTA area. A typical route would be something like CNU8 (Markham) - CYTZ - CYOO - CNU8, which is longer than 50 miles, but is within 25 nm radius of the airport of origin. And I have entered a circuit or landed at all the airports above.

Knowing that there is no definition of "cross country" in CARs, how safe is it for me to log it as such for the purpose of applying new ratings (IFR, CPL, w\e) in the future? I picture trying to explain this as "X-C" time to an arguing TC inspector as not exactly pleasant.

Thanks for your input.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:10 pm

It has always been my understanding that anything within a 25nm radius of where you depart, regardless of whether or not you land there, was not a cross-country. I did many training flights from CYKZ to CYOO, with wandering around doing airwork north-of or in the Claremont training area, flying a total distance of well over 25nm. Yet the distance between YOO and YKZ is only 21 or 22, so it never counted. Even asked an ex-TC worker whether or not it counted: no dice.

mikegtzg · Post by **mikegtzg** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:18 pm

I had a slightly different enquiry to TC along the same lines.
Should I keep logging cross country time for flights that I repeatably do. EX: CYAV to CYBR return CYAV Done it enough times both myself and the aircraft know there way. They said yes keep logging it.

On your question, Doesn't the definition of cross country include legs must be at least 30 minutes. So if you take the scenic route to an aerodrome within 25nm. it should be considered. (provided 30 minutes) I'm going to look that up and confirm.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:27 pm

Like you said there is no legal definition. Which means it is totally up to how the guy processing your paperwork feel. I know some schools that used every trip to the practice area, much less than 25 nm away, as .2 of cross country time. Just depends on who you get and how ornery they are feeling that day.

I would definitely log all cross country flights as cross country time, even if they are not further away than some magic number. When the time comes, discuss it with whoever is counting it and make sure you have enough "countable" time to meet the minimums.

FL_CH · Post by **FL_CH** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:48 pm

What information would the inspector have? Say i have 1.4 or 1.6 (never below 1.0) logged as X-C, am i obligated to enter RMK providing details where i flew, and where i landed at in order for it to be "countable"? Am I to remember every flight I've done and be able to provide exact details? I mean, 1.0 could easily be a more-than-25nm kind of cross country in a plane doing 100+ kts, should we stick to that number.

Just trying to figure out how the system works there.

lexx · Post by **lexx** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:17 am

FL_CH wrote:What information would the inspector have? .....
......Just trying to figure out how the system works there.

There is this rule about filing flight plans for flights more than 25nm from point of origin isn't there? Maybe that's part of the rationale behind the 25nm mark.

Although highly unlikely, if push came to shove, there are records of flight plans filed, and if you talk to a tower controller along your route, your registration and times are kept as well.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:55 am

Just trying to figure out how the system works

heh heh, good luck. I've been trying to 35 years to figure that out ....

Yeah, there is no definition of "cross-country" in the CARs, AFAIK. The 25 nm idea (flight plan required) ain't bad, but let's say I file IFR from airport A to airport B which are 24 nm apart, and I'm in the cloud at 200 AGL on departure, moderate mixed icing on the way over, and I have to do an ILS approach to minimums to get in.

Is that cross-country time? Sure it is, at least to me. But I'm sure you can find some Transport Inspector that disagrees with me

In the absence of any definition, cross-country time in YOUR logbook is whatever YOU say it is. If you want to define "cross-country" as any time that you're out of the circuit, sure, why not.

It really can't be very important to Transport if they can't be bothered to add a sentence or two to the CARs (shrug).

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:37 am

So I talked to a few new people since my first post above, and I've developed a bit more of a concrete answer. Now, keep it in mind that just about every TC Inspector that looks at your logbook will have a different interpretation of what XC time should be.

First, the 25nm rule is a good one to follow. Use it as a radius from the point of departure. Anything further, log it as XC.

If you're flying to another airport, and have done SOME planning to get there (pre-flight or diversion exercise), even if its within 25nm, you can log it as XC. Just make sure you don't do it all the time as the TC Inspector may just say you're scamming the time.

Total distance over 25nm, say your example of the 50nm round-robin trip from CNU8 to CYOO to CYTZ and back, if you are doing touch-and-gos etc, log it as XC. But remember the same as above, some TC Inspectors may frown upon the short radius distance.

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:37 pm

I'd say that any time you're travelling from airport to airport (aka: using the aircraft to get around and not just go up to a practice area or go sightseeing locally - within 25nm) that it's cross country.

seneca · Post by **seneca** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:46 pm

I would say that if you have to take the journey log according to TC beyond 25nm or landing other than departure you should log the time. like said a person has said above you have taken some time to plan as well!

If you are using it towards a lic sign off the person at your school who will do the sign off should be able to tell you if it is good for thier purposes! because TC will most likely never see your log book in this case!

however if you are having it done by TC be carefull but you should be ok!

on another note if using this time towards the 30 solo on course it may raise eybrows in so far as was the training towards bettering your skills.

if this is not used for commercial lic sign off sorry as for ATPL i doubt they will dig deep enough to measure the dist between all cross country legs!

Andrew1 · Post by **Andrew1** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:36 pm

I understood that any time you had to read the map (diversion practice) it can be counted as x-country, regardless of the 25nm rule.

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:59 pm

I think it's xc if you are going somewhere.

As for the 25nm flight plan comment... how about a flight itinerary - that's ok too...

Other than the 300nm xc and some night xc for the night rating is there a requirement for cpl? I can't remember... if not, who cares about day xc to the practice area... you'll get a bunch when you get a job and by the time you need it for your a's anyway...

I tried to max out my night xc while time building because a friend told me it can be hard to get later if you end up in the bush... turned out not to be a problem though...

StepOnTheBall · Post by **StepOnTheBall** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:48 pm

Log it how you want to, but for the PTR TC seems to want a point of origin and a destination as a minimum. eg. for diversions in the remarks section they want to see something like "town A to town B" or something like that. For your own personal log (outside of meeting licensing requirements) do whatever the heck you want.

StepOnTheBall · Post by **StepOnTheBall** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:52 pm

Log it how you want to, but for the PTR TC seems to want a point of origin and a destination as a minimum. eg. for diversions in the remarks section they want to see something like "town A to town B" or something like that. For your own personal log (outside of meeting licensing requirements) do whatever the heck you want.

For commercial (aeroplane) you need 20 X-C PIC, for ATPL 100 (25 night)

FL_CH · Post by **FL_CH** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:06 pm

Thanks for your input.

I wasn't thinking of CPL here (long time till i get it, if i decide to at all), but rather Instrument Rating, requiring 50 hours PIC Cross-Country.

Seeing how there is no real reference to any of the official sources (TC, AIP, whatev), i'll probably end up logging it all as X-C.