Futility

[Cat Driver]

"fu·til·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fy-tl-t)
n. pl. fu·til·i·ties
The quality of having no useful result; uselessness.
Lack of importance or purpose; frivolousness.
A futile act.


Sometimes there are things in life that we must abandon because there is not sufficient return for the effort.

For me it is the time I waste on this forum attempting to explain some of the problems that I feel are systemic in flight training evident from the poor performance of the industry's end product the pilots.

I find it interesting that a thread about "Why does an airplane turn" gets 121 posts and 2013 hits pontificatiing on the physics of the turn.

Suddenly it occured to me that I am way, way out of touch with what is important and what is unimportant.

Obviously it is more important to be able to delve deeply into the fine points of physics than bother to ponder on how to teach the student how to put physics to work through hands and feet flying and good judgement.

So I am finally going to get a life and leave the instructing problem to those who are employed in the flight schools.

However before I quit banging my head against a wall of indiference I am going to explain the simple method that I use to get the student to see the picture when landing.

Rather than try and explain what they should look for as they get close to the landing I tell them where I want them to look...

I choose something easy to identify such as the runway numbers.

I fly the approach and verbally relate the height that the airplane is above the runway.

Having advised the student I will flare at ten feet I count the final descent thus...25 / 20/ /15/ / 10 flare now.

All I want the student to do is watch the runway numbers and process the picture they see, rather than try and describe what they should see for the simple reason it is better for the student to watch and form their own picture.

The most important part of this very short moment in time in the training process is to be able to accurately and repeatably be able to judge height yourself so the student gets the correct visual information when painting their own picture of what they are looking for.

Once they have the flare height identified and can demonstrate to me that they understand by doing it themselves I then move to the next part of the landing which is the hold off and touch down segment. I do this using the same method of demonstrating and verbally explaining where I am looking and my height to touch down.

In other words I first make sure they can judge the approach to the runway numbers and how to judge the moment to flare to the level attitude before I teach them the hold off and touch down picture.


I am running out of enthusiasm for this now so if anyone is interested in how I teach the rest of the landing process let me know and I will try and struggle through some more keyboard time.

Cat

[CD]

Your process sounds very much how my initial training progressed when I was starting off in gliders. It certainly made my transition to powered aircraft much easier...

[sakism]

I think that the reason you are not getting many responses to your question is that many people don't want to hear your reply. You seem to be taking a very 'holier than thou' attitude on this subject, and let's face it - people don't like to be told that they're wrong.

Having said that - I'm not afraid of a little discussion.

The words used may be different, but I think that everyone uses a varient of what you described to judge when to return the aircraft to level flight. A friend of mine used to tell people to 'go as low as you dare'. I found this a little subjective and had a couple of his students habitually flare about a foot off the ground - and scare the crap out of me. Personally, I do something similar to you - the first few circuits I verbally announce the point to start the round-out. Once they have reached that point, however, the eyes need to shift to the end of the runway.

Why?

The end of the runway is just an easy way to get the student to return their focus to the horizon. If they don't do this they cannot properly return the aircraft to level flight. Also, they need to be looking forward to properly sense when the aircraft has lost enough lift and starts sinking again. If they don't sense this they land flat every time.

As for the actual hold off and touchdown - I tell students that when they sense the aircraft starting to sink they should smoothly raise the nose to the climb attitude - again with reference to the horizon. I tell them to raise the nose as though they were trying to maintain their present altitude. The most common error with this is having them raise the nose too quickly and climbing again. Practice seems to take care of this in a reasonably short time. I also tell them to slow things down in their minds - things seem to be happening quickly - but they really aren't.

[bob sacamano]

Sakism,

I think you should take your condescending tone elsewhere champ

There's no room for superstars like you on this forum.

A wise person once told me;

"A good landing comes from a good approach".

[water wings]

in Canada, one day you are a 200 hour wonder and the next day you teach people everything you know because TC says you are safe. You may now spend hours debating the physics of a turn.

experience is the best teacher, which is why i was a shitty 300 hour instructor and most likely will be for several years. When the time comes i will still be a shitty instructor as all of the real life scenarios will cause failures in my students as it is not what TC is looking for... but i digress...

Do go on, Monsieur Cat, we learn all of the time and should be jumping all over experience and sucking it in. keep typing, boy.

[Brewguy]

Yeah Cat, I have to agree that the wording you've used in some of the questions is what has kept me from replying in more detail. I do not instruct on powered aircraft, but I do instruct on gliders. One of the things that I have learned doing this, is that many pilots of powered aircraft seem to look down on gliding and soaring; and therefore don't want to discuss flying techniques with glider pilots. The other thing that I have learned, is that people with a background in both types of flying, recognize that there is much that you can learn from pure aerodynamic flight (gliding).

One of the things you asked was how to teach a student to judge height to say a foot. I have no experience in that. That said, the difference is very easy to judge in a glider since you're only sitting 6" up to begin with. 2 feet = sitting on a bar stool; 1 foot = lawnchair. While I can see it may have some uses when flying seaplanes, it has no use in gliding. If you are at 1 foot in a glider, you have already flared and are waiting for the wheels to touch. We teach students to have a spot-on approach, with a smooth transition to landing. Why? Because we only get one shot at it!

So on that note, I will briefly address the approach, transition to landing and touchdown from the purely stick & rudder, gliding perspective (call it "power-off" if you prefer). Now I want to mention that I learned in the Air Cadet program, which teaches a bit differently from the Soaring Association. In my opinion, the cadets fly a much better circuit and landing. So I teach how I was taught - which is very much "by the book". I tried to phrase it in my own words, but finally gave up as I realized that the wording used in the ACGP manual is very well written, and very close to what I actually do. So here is the techniques and teaching points:

FINAL APPROACH
You should plan your circuit pattern so that the final approach is made with a glide angle that allows two sorts of corrections: steepening the glide path, by further extension of the spoilers; or flattening the glide by closing them. Ideally, the final approach should be flown with a spoiler setting that has 50 per cent of the effect of full spoilers. In no wind conditions, the ideal approach angle will be flatter than when the approach is made into a wind. The more promptly height adjustments are made to maintain the ideal approach path, the fewer problems will be encountered on landing. You should get used to judging your height on final approach without reference to the altimeter.

To establish the proper glide path on the final approach, the glider pilot must select an aiming point. This is a point on the ground where you want to round out, short of where you want to touchdown. A convenient mark on the ground or some other obvious point is easiest to see. By noting the position of this object in relation to the nose or some other point on the canopy, any tendency to undershoot or overshoot can be seen.

Final Approach Speed. To compensate for headwinds during final approach, the FAS is calculated as part of the downwind check. It is the sum of the normal circuit speed of 50 mph and the reported wind speed including any gust factor to a maximum of 65 mph e.g., if the reported winds were 10 mph gusting to 15, the FAS would be 65 mph (50 + 15 = 65).

Once established on final approach, check your aiming point.. It should be stationary on your canopy. If it is moving towards/under you, you are overshooting/high. Use more spoiler, sideslip or both in combination. If your aiming point appears to be going up the canopy/away from you, you are undershooting/low. Close the spoilers. At some time during these corrections you will achieve the desired glide path. Adjust spoilers as required to maintain the desired glide path. On most gliders, provided the airspeed is correct, you can fully open the spoilers once in the position to land.

Maintain your final approach speed to the round out by cross-checking your ASI during the final approach.

STRONG WIND DOWN THE RUNWAY
If strong winds are present or develop unexpectedly, the circuit will require modification, that is, the circuit altitudes or circuit pattern or both will have to be adjusted. Making the circuit smaller (tightening the pattern) results in additional altitude being available which can then be used to counteract the effect of strong winds. Additionally, as a rule of thumb, an extra 100 feet of altitude will compensate for approximately 10 mph of headwind. Remember, altitude lost cannot be regained, but excess altitude can be eliminated, when necessary, by the judicious use of spoilers, slipping, positioning or any combination of these methods. In summary, remember these ground rules:

• a. Remember that a strong wind down the runway is normally a strong tailwind on downwind, a strong
  crosswind on base leg and a strong headwind on approach.
  b. If the crosswind is strong on downwind, use crab to eliminate drift either away from or into the runway.
  A 20 mph crosswind on downwind will require approximately 20 degrees of crab to eliminate the drift.
  c. If there is a strong headwind, especially over 15 mph, base leg should be started as the glider passes the
  approach end of the landing strip. Turning early will prevent the glider from being drifted too far downwind.
  d. On base leg, crab must be used to prevent drifting too far away from the runway. Remember that a 20 mph
  approach headwind is a 20 mph crosswind on base leg and will require approximately 20 degrees of crab to
  eliminate drift.
  e. In a strong headwind, the start point for final turn must be higher than normal or closer to the runway than
  normal or a combination of both because the higher approach speeds result in higher descent rates.

LANDING
The last phase of the approach is the landing. The aim of the landing is to transfer the glider cleanly from the air to the ground at a minimum rate of descent and forward speed for the conditions prevailing.

At a safe height, about 30 feet AGL, the pilot should start slowly easing back on the control column to round the glider out gently into level flight. Make sure you keep the calculated approach speed up to the point of round-out. In doing so, be careful not to pull back too hard and start climbing again.

Keep the glider flying about 2 feet above ground for as long as you can (keep looking straight ahead). When the speed has dropped so low that flight can no longer be sustained, the glider will touch down. Touchdown therefore occurs at the lowest possible airspeed. As the speed decreases more pronounced control movements will
be needed to hold wings level and to maintain directional control. After touchdown, continue to ease the control column back during the roll-out until it is fully aft.

TIPS TO INSTRUCTORS
1. The instructor should not be discouraged if there is little improvement during the first few circuit lessons.
Student difficulties may include:
a. how to judge when to initiate the turn to base leg;
b. how to judge when to initiate the turn to final;
c. how to judge whether the glider is overshooting or undershooting;
d. when to round-out;
e. how to complete the touchdown (hold-off); and
f. how to keep straight during the ground roll.
2. Stay close to the controls during landings in case you must take immediate control to avoid a hazardous
situation from developing.
3. The point at which descent is checked during the landing is sometimes difficult for students to judge.
Suggestions include:
a. the ground seems to be coming up rapidly;
b. the whole area of the ground seems to expand;
c. the touchdown point seems to approach rapidly; and
d. becoming conscious of sudden movement of the ground.
4. The student must be taught to look ahead and slightly to the sides of the aircraft, and not to fixate on any
one feature.
5. Since poor landings are often the result of a poor final approach, you must ensure that the student
maintains the calculated final approach speed and compensates for any crosswind.
6. Ensure that the student understands the necessity to fly the glider to a full stop.

The length of the landing run will vary according to the wind strength and landing surface. If landing in a crosswind and you are using the wing down approach (sideslip), the into-wind wing must remain down during the approach, hold-off and touchdown until the glider comes to a full stop. If the wind is such that sideslipping cannot eliminate the drift, the crab method must be employed. Immediately before touchdown the glider should be yawed so that it is parallel to the landing path. In both methods;­ crab and sideslip;­ the tendency of the glider to weathercock after touchdown must be prevented.

Monitoring your ASI during the final stages prior to touchdown is essential. If your airspeed is too slow, close the spoilers immediately. Below 50 feet, you do not have room to increase the glide angle for more airspeed; the closure of the spoilers is your best course of action.

If you touch down too hard and bounce or apply too much back pressure on the control column and balloon, you should immediately level off and then, if the spoilers are open, close them. From this point it will depend on how high you are above the ground. If you are close to the ground, allow the speed to decrease and carry out a landing. If you are quite high, you will need to make a gradual descent to again round out for the landing. Be careful not to pump the control column back and forth, this only leads to porpoising.

So this is basically it. A stable approach with the aiming point stationary in the canopy. Once at about 20' (they say 30' - I personally disagree), I start a gentle round out to level flight attitude (which in a glider is still a shallow descent). Hold the glider in that level attitude for as long as possible allowing the glider to settle onto the runway. After touchdown, maintain a straight track for as long as possible until the glider has stopped (i.e fly it to the stop). The key is to maintain a stable approach, a steady airspeed and otherwise get your damn head out of the cockpit. As for judging the height for the flare, much as you say it is demonstrated a few times while the student pays attention to the visual picture outside. I also point out some of the things mentioned above in the "Instructor Tips".

A couple of generalities about gliding. We fly tight circuits (i.e. always within "gliding distance" of the field); we establish on final with excess height and use spoilers and/or sideslips to loose that excess height as applicable (because of course, there is SFA we can do if we are too low). The rest is just stick and rudder flying.

For those who don't know; the reason that one point on the ground stays stationary, is because that will be your point of impact if you don't round prior to landing. That is also the reason why the student will experience that "ground rush" or rapid movement sensation as they get below say 20 feet.

Anyways, that's just my 2 cents worth. Those airplane drivers among you who have never experienced quiet flight can take it or leave it.

[Cat Driver]

" Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:09 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that the reason you are not getting many responses to your question is that many people don't want to hear your reply. You seem to be taking a very 'holier than thou' attitude on this subject, and let's face it - people don't like to be told that they're wrong. "

Sakism I took the time to read some of your posts before replying.

In your case I shall respond to the part in red.

the easy way is just to paste what you wrote and comment on what you wrote in your own text, so here is my opinion on your method.

" Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The words used may be different, but I think that everyone uses a varient of what you described to judge when to return the aircraft to level flight. A friend of mine used to tell people to 'go as low as you dare'. I found this a little subjective and had a couple of his students habitually flare about a foot off the ground - and scare the crap out of me. Personally, I do something similar to you - the first few circuits I verbally announce the point to start the round-out. Once they have reached that point, however, the eyes need to shift to the end of the runway. I do not agree

Why?

The end of the runway is just an easy way to get the student to return their focus to the horizon. That is lazy teaching and ingrains sloppy flying habits right from the start of their learning curve. If they don't do this they cannot properly return the aircraft to level flight. This statement is absurd. Also, they need to be looking forward to properly sense when the aircraft has lost enough lift and starts sinking again. You "SEE" when the aircraft starts to sink , or rise you don't sense it. If they don't sense this they land flat every time. I would suggest that most of the cause for landing flat is thay are looking in the wrong place for situational awareness and do not raise the nose because you have them looking at the far end of the runway and if they lift the nose they can't see it.
As for the actual hold off and touchdown - I tell students that when they sense the aircraft starting to sink they should smoothly raise the nose to the climb attitude - again with reference to the horizon. Yeh, of course look at the horizon and get almost zero visual reference to your height above the runway.. I tell them to raise the nose as though they were trying to maintain their present altitude. The most common error with this is having them raise the nose too quickly and climbing again. If they only change attitude to correct for any height deviation this problem will not occur, however they have to be able to accurately judge height and as long as they are looking at the horizon they are guessing their height.. Practice seems to take care of this in a reasonably short time. I also tell them to slow things down in their minds - things seem to be happening quickly - but they really aren't.

I have commented on some of your teaching techniques and would like to suggest that you read my other thread ( An experiment ) on why looking to far ahead will result in poor judgement of height and distance from an object.

By the way being wrong is nothing to be ashamed of, however being wrong and obnoxious at the same time is even worse Sakism, that is why I have replied to your post so read it and think about it.

Cat

[sakism]

By the way being wrong is nothing to be ashamed of, however being wrong and obnoxious at the same time is even worse Sakism, that is why I have replied to your post so read it and think about it.Cat

Hold on now - I don't see where I was being obnoxious. I just gave my opinion on the reason behind the lack of responses to your thread. Any offense I have given was purely unintentional. Unfortunately, your response does nothing except substantiate my opinion. As I said, I look forward to discussion - that is what this board is about.

As to the rest, where would you have students look after they have flared? They can no longer look at the runway, and surely you don't want them looking out the side windows.

How do you have them return to level flight without looking at the horizon?

If you want to mince words - 'seeing' is 'sensing'. I do, however, disagree with 'sight' being the only sense used to judge sink rate at point of touchdown. That is something that is felt as much as seen.

Your experiment does not deal with the height aspect of the whole thing. How about you try my experment? Go skiing and go over a reasonably high jump. Look straight down when you are landing. Do it again and focus 10-15 feet ahead of you when you are landing.

[Cat Driver]

Sakism, I have previously described where I have them look however I will answer this because the question makes me wonder what it is you do not understand about where to look besides the far end of the runway.

You ask:

" As to the rest, where would you have students look after they have flared? They can no longer look at the runway, and surely you don't want them looking out the side windows. "

What do you mean they can no longer look at the runway? Are you saying you land on the far end and there is no runway left after you flare to the level attitude.?

Once again here it is..

As you flare to the level attitude you smoothly transfer your center of sight from the flare point to a point ahead on the runway centerline where apparent movement of the runway towards you ceases..at bug smasher speeds this will be about 4 to 5 hundred feet ahead of the airplane.

During the last moments before touch down if the nose blocks out the runway directly ahead of you move your line of sight to the side enough to see past the nose and about 4 to 5 hundred feet ahead using the runway edge as your guide.

If you are unable to judge the attitudes in pitch, roll and yaw without having the horizon as a reference I would suggest getting your vision checked and stay away from Cat 1 and 11 landings in IMC until you get all this sorted out..

What is so difficult about that?

If you are still unable to form a picture of what I am describing I can not help you any further.

And I am finished with this discussion.

Cat

[Cat Driver]

Neil:

Thanks for taking the time to answer, may I add to your comment about gliders?

If you have not experienced gliders you have not experienced flight.

For what ever it is worth I tried to get my sailplane ticket in Hawaii some years ago and had to leave before I got my training finished, but I did get to experience enough true flight that I will some day hopefully finish the license.

And when teaching landings to pilots in powered airplanes they are flying gliders, because I first ensure they can land power off before I let them cheat and use power.

As a side note the last five words on the voice callout when landing an Airbus A320 are.

forty
twenty
retard
10
5

Even Airbus lands power off....oh and you can see the runway straight ahead in the landing attitude, which is a plus.

and the computers give you rudder control in that phase of flight, which is another plus.

Cat

[Edo]

I too first learned in gliders.

nblythin - thanks for posting the ACGP manual. Im just going to post what i recall from memory leading up to the final apporach, the landing starts way father back than that.

The circut is regimented and very structured. Join IP and enter downwind at 1000' and halfway down the runway. place the runway so it intersects 2/3 of the way up the strut. Fly 50 mph in a no wind situation

turn base when the aiming point is 45 degrees over your shoulder this should happen at 500' if you get to the 45 sooner turn sooner and use spoilers to height later. if you get to 500' sooner turn base and angle the flightpath close to the field

Now that you are on base look at the aiming point, yes you are still 90 degrees to the grass but you can still pick up the point of no mevement.

turn final at 300' and line up. watch the aiming point attitude for airspeed spoilers for rate of decent. Flown properly you should need 1/2 spoilers. use mose to kill excess altitiude and slip if you need to.

fly to the aiming point and transition to the flare hold off and let the glider land. In a light wind you can use aileron to keep wings level until the ground crew runs out to catch the wing.


The basic circut is modifed for winds. Once you start adding 10 plus mph to the approach speeds the visual picture takes some getting used to

One major problem if powered training is that no 2 circuts are done the same way, espically at a busy airport in the summer. The extended downwinds, long finals and various touchdown points for wake turb seperation all hinder the development of a structured circut. Yes these tools are needed but in the first ab-intio stages it would be nice to have a very structured circut.

Fly the profile, then the only thing that chages from one pass to the next is your student adjusting to the attitude. Gliders are spoiled because everyone get out of the way.

In the floatplane I pick a big lake and setup a circut. If the pilot has a fair bit of time the circut is quite small 500'. If they have lower time the first lesson has a bigger circut but then is onto 500' down winds and abbrivated circuts.

until the student has a good picture of the approach its useless concentrating on the last 30 sec and 200'

[bob sacamano]

Also, they need to be looking forward to properly sense when the aircraft has lost enough lift and starts sinking again. You "SEE" when the aircraft starts to sink , or rise you don't sense it.[/color] If they don't sense this they land flat every time.

With all your experience, I was shocked when you said that pilots don't sense when their aircraft is sinking

Not only do you sense it, you feel it, see it, and hear it.

I would suggest that most of the cause for landing flat is thay are looking in the wrong place for situational awareness and do not raise the nose because you have them looking at the far end of the runway and if they lift the nose they can't see it.

I take it I can use a 172 for example, when landing one of those, you don't want to see the end of the runway by the time your main wheels make contact. You use it initially as a reference, as you transition to a nose up attitude, maybe use another reference then (i.e. nose up attitude, or airport specific such as tree tops. I tell students to point the nose to the tree tops, etc.)

As for the actual hold off and touchdown - I tell students that when they sense the aircraft starting to sink they should smoothly raise the nose to the climb attitude - again with reference to the horizon. Yeh, of course look at the horizon and get almost zero visual reference to your height above the runway..

At this point, I would hope that the height has been judged, and now you are in the flare. In my opinion, height judgment is critical prior to entering the roundout, after that it's about maintaining that height and adjusting the attitude in order to make contact on the main wheels. Any height deviation here can be sensed and seen, as well as heard and felt (with experience of course). We have a field of vision, not just a straight tunnel ahead of us.

I tell them to raise the nose as though they were trying to maintain their present altitude. The most common error with this is having them raise the nose too quickly and climbing again. If they only change attitude to correct for any height deviation this problem will not occur, however they have to be able to accurately judge height and as long as they are looking at the horizon they are guessing their height..

What do you do in this case cat? do you go back to the verbal method? i.e. remote controlling them.

By the way being wrong is nothing to be ashamed of, however being wrong and obnoxious at the same time is even worse Sakism, that is why I have replied to your post so read it and think about it.Cat

Classy

Maybe this attitude is the cause of lack of replies? You try to bring people to converse, yet after 1 reply you call them abonxious when it wasn't warranted.

Hey it's simple, change the title to "My way is the right way, or else Fcuk off!"



*edited due to your posts that came up while I was typing this.

[sakism]

What do you mean they can no longer look at the runway? Are you saying you land on the far end and there is no runway left after you flare to the level attitude.?Cat

I meant that you could no longer look at the part of the runway which you previously described as the reference point for judging the height of the flare.

Sakism, I have previously described where I have them look...

I didn't see where you previously described this shift of focus - it certainly wasn't in this thread, and I cannot be expected to have read every one of your posts.

You have the student shift their view to the point where apparent movement of the runway stops - I have them shift their view to the end of the runway. It's essentially the same thing and achieves the exact same result. For a person with very little flying experience, however, the end of the runway is easier for them to recognize.

The references to the horizon are just to allow the students to equate the attitudes to something with which they are familiar.

If you are unable to judge the attitudes in pitch, roll and yaw without having the horizon as a reference I would suggest getting your vision checked and stay away from Cat 1 and 11 landings in IMC until you get all this sorted out..

Remember, we're not talking about me or you, we're talking about students. There was no call to get insulting.

And I am finished with this discussion.

I was under the impression that you wanted to hear from instructors on their techniques. Now that I have participated, you're quitting?

[bob sacamano]

If you are unable to judge the attitudes in pitch, roll and yaw without having the horizon as a reference I would suggest getting your vision checked and stay away from Cat 1 and 11 landings in IMC until you get all this sorted out..

What is so difficult about that?

If you are still unable to form a picture of what I am describing I can not help you any further.

And I am finished with this discussion.

Cat

Wow, you gave up almost as fast as TC gave up on you

I was under the impression that this post was about teaching students how to judge height. Now I haven't been in the same flight trainning business as you may have been in, where in Lesson # 5 i'm teaching them to flare while earlier in the lesson I was teaching them to judge the attitudes in pitch, roll and yaw without having the horizon as a reference in IMC conditions, while landing in Cat I.

[Cat Driver]

Quote:

" You seem to be taking a very 'holier than thou' attitude on this subject, "

If you all think that this is my reason for posting, then It is about time I quit.

But first may I make a few more comments to show exactly what an as.hole I really am?

"
With all your experience, I was shocked when you said that pilots don't sense when their aircraft is sinking

Not only do you sense it, you feel it, see it, and hear it. "

My comments were directed at where to look for visual clues as to your situational awareness with regard to height.

You also sense, feel and hear and "SEE "during flight by reference to instruments only in IMC.


Which of these senses is the most reliable?

" Maybe this attitude is the cause of lack of replies? You try to bring people to converse, yet after 1 reply you call them abonxious when it wasn't warranted.

Hey it's simple, change the title to "My way is the right way, or else Fcuk off!"


Could be Bob, and of course your response is proof of "Class "?

You guys seem to know what your doing and I am just out to lunch so keep turning out pilots who are substandard.

Gives me a never ending pool of substandard pilots to retrain.


Cat.

[Cat Driver]

" Wow, you gave up almost as fast as TC gave up on you "

Yeh, I am a danger to aviation and therefore you would be stupid to take any suggestions from me.

So have at it Tiger, remember TC is your master and never think for yourself that way you can continue to work for peanuts.

[bob sacamano]

Quote:

" You seem to be taking a very 'holier than thou' attitude on this subject, "

If you all think that this is my reason for posting, then It is about time I quit.

But first may I make a few more comments to show exactly what an as.hole I really am?

"
With all your experience, I was shocked when you said that pilots don't sense when their aircraft is sinking

Not only do you sense it, you feel it, see it, and hear it. "

My comments were directed at where to look for visual clues as to your situational awareness with regard to height.

You also sense, feel and hear and "SEE "during flight by reference to instruments only in IMC.


Which of these senses is the most reliable?

Since you seem to want to deviate this topic from its original content, I have no problems, so far, in continuing with you.

First I fail to see what you mean by "SEEing" in IMC. I thought spacial disorientation was due to the visual deprivation of natural/visual references, hence the reason for us to learn how to fly by using our instruments.

The senses that we have available to us come from different sources:

- Visual system
- Vestibular system
- Somatosensory system

You guys seem to know what your doing and I am just out to lunch so keep turning out pilots who are substandard.Cat.

No one in this post said that you were out to lunch, you said that yourself.

Also, you have no idea of the level or standards of the pilots that I train.

Gives me a never ending pool of substandard pilots to retrain.Cat.

Apparently not in Canada

[bob sacamano]

" Wow, you gave up almost as fast as TC gave up on you "

Yeh, I am a danger to aviation and therefore you would be stupid to take any suggestions from me.

So have at it Tiger, remember TC is your master and never think for yourself that way you can continue to work for peanuts.

Cat you sure do talk alot about yourself.

No one here said that you were dangerous. I'm having a deja-vu, wait, it's from a conversation with my ex.

i'm fat, i'm ugly, i'm a bad cook...no dear, you're not, I never said that.

It was only a matter of time until TC got dragged into this arguement.

But, when did I say TC was my master? you are the messiah and we are all zombies correct?

The fact of the matter is that you have a wealth of experience under your belt, and many on here, including myself, would love for you to share some with us. What I ask from you is to increase your level of patience just a tad in order for us to have a fruitful conversation in hopes that maybe both of us can learn from each other.

[Cat Driver]

" Apparently not in Canada "

That is correct Bob my issues with TC have resulted in my not working in Canada.

However my issues with TC have zero to do with flying airplanes nor my understanding of the subject.

My issues with TC were regarding the issuance of a FTU OC and had zero to do with being a pilot or for that matter an instructor.

Obviously we have come to a point where we are bringing personal comments into what should have remained a discussion on what are the best methods to teach someone to fly.

As I was the one that started the subject I take full responsibility for it having gone off track.

Quite frankly I owe neither you nor the industry anything and this is not productive nor educational so please accept my apology for not coming across in the proper attitude when using a key board to try and communicate.

I trust you feel better knowing that TC will protect you from people such as me.

Cat

[duplicate2]

I find it interesting that a thread about "Why does an airplane turn" gets 121 posts and 2013 hits pontificatiing on the physics of the turn.

Just wanted to point out that your 5 separate threads on this topic has generated 132 replies and 2761 hits as of now, so you have in fact beaten physics.

[cyxe]

For your viewing pleasure:

http://www.kingschools.com/videoTip.asp

Love the hair.

[TC Guy]

For your viewing pleasure:

http://www.kingschools.com/videoTip.asp

Love the hair.

She does have an interesting perspective. "Never push forward" kind of scared me... I tell students to "level out and re-flare" if they have really "ballooned". Please PLEASE do not pull back more!

I am going to go out on a limb and give MY suggestions on landing teaching techniques.

The single biggest thing that instructors forget: Give them a good demo. Make sure they see WHAT they are supposed to do. If they go off track, show them again. Use a different explination.

In a nutshell, the basics are this (nosewheel equipped aircraft, of course):

1) On the first few, I tell them when to begin the round-out
2) "keep the aeroplane at this altitude above the ground"
3) (if it isn't already) "pull the throttle to idle"
4) "raise the nose to maintain this altitude, use peripheral vision to maintain it"
5) "okay, it is time to land, maintain this attitude"
6) "touchdown on mainwheels first"

Golden rule: You set up the aircraft to land. You don't try and force it to.

No one way works for every student.

If they are still having difficulty, take them back out to the practice area. They don't yet have the basics down.

Interestingly enough, I have had the opportunity to teach many students who's first language is NOT english (and I cannot speak anything but) using hand signals, grunts and key words, and they have continued on to Asiana and Cathay.

Sorry to not be terribly specific, but everyone learns differently. I loved the suggestion to put the student in the landing attitude on the ground. Wow. I thought I had done everything.

-Guy

PS: Loved the hair too.

[Cat Driver]

TC Guy:

Putting the student in the seat and then sitting on the hor. stab. to raise the nose wheel off the ground serves several purposes, when I used to own a FTU I used that method to point out what nose attitude was needed to ensure the nose wheel was off the ground and also to point out that their field of vision had to shift sideways to see alongside the nose.

That was also the ideal time to point out how far ahead to look by using a reference point ahead.

It would seem that I also am a slow learner because it took me to long to figure out that a computer keyboard is arguably the worst vehicle on earth to try and explain teaching methods.

I am not alone in observing that far to many pilots demonstrate poor landing techniques, one of the most common reasons that I found was looking to far off into the distance ( seems Martha King agrees. ) and I thought I would start a thread on this issue.

Unfortunately because of my delivery method some here have come to the conclusion that I am arrogant and insulting. I suppose that it is easy to come to that conclusion and thus resent my remarks.

Fortunately I do not have that problem with my clients as all my work comes from referral.

I can ignore most of the negative stuff on this forum, however when my issues with TC are used to infer that I am flawed as a flight instructor and used to support the opinion that I have a flawed personality not conductive to being a flight instructor in Canada that is beyond what I will expose myself to here on this forum.

So you can have this group TC Guy because I sure don't need to spend my time here wasting my energy making suggestions to instructors who already have the right stuff.

I won't even touch the question being asked about how to land short in a tail wheel airplane, I'm going to leave that to the experts here.

Cat

[TC Guy]

It would seem that I also am a slow learner because it took me to long to figure out that a computer keyboard is arguably the worst vehicle on earth to try and explain teaching methods.

I can certainly agree with you there.

., you tend to use very passionate language, and that does fire some people up. You love aviation. Heck, I get that.

As far as convincing anyone? Not here. Not going to happen.

What you can do here is maybe plant the seed-- make someone pause and maybe, just maybe they will change their behavior when the opportunity presents itself.

Keep on truckin'... er flyin'.

-Guy

[Airtids]

Putting the student in the seat and then sitting on the hor. stab. to raise the nose wheel off the ground serves several purposes, when I used to own a FTU I used that method to point out what nose attitude was needed to ensure the nose wheel was off the ground and also to point out that their field of vision had to shift sideways to see alongside the nose.

Cat

Now THAT is frikken' BRILLIANT!! I've been teaching for coming on a dozen years, and have used successfully MANY different ways to get students to become proficient with their landings, both wheels and floats. NEVER had I even considered doing what you just suggested. Not to toot your horn Cat, 'cause I don't really think you need it, but seriously, man, THAT is exactly why the training industry in this country still needs folks with experience like yourself to be involved. That may have been a reasonably common procedure (anyone else oth there do this?), but I'd never considered it, I'm sure there are others here who hadn't either, and now I've got another arrow in my quiver. Thanks.

Now, as to the rest of this: You can't read a person's facial expression over the internet, you can't hear the tone of their voice, you can't see their eyes start to twich, and for the most part, we are dealing with anonymity which immediately and automatically elicits mistrust. These are reasons why sometimes the internet is such a POOR way to communicate. I know you ., and I have to agree that the 'tone' of the inquisition of today's flight instructors over the last couple of threads has come across as, how should I say this... aggressive? Because I know you, I also know this was not your intention. Realise, however, that not everyone is able to make that distinction. I happen to agree that the level of skill demonstrated by most new CPLs today is lacking. The difference between you and me, ., is that you get paid to fix the problems, and I pay to fix them. Everyone keep your pants on, OK?

Seems to me that part of the issue is that as instructors, sometimes we have to 'teach' things in a manner that does not immediately reflect the 'reality' of how things are done (IFR instruction is filled with these anomalies). We all here know how to land an airplane; most of us have reached the point where it has become a 'Zen' activity (not to suggest that I don't pound one on ocassionally ), to paint it with a real Nelson brush. However, the trick is how to convey that to a new pilot who has NO IDEA what to do, and to select the easiest way to do it. Good instructors have at their disposal a variety of different ways to accomplish this. Not any one is 'the' right way or 'the' wrong way to do it. If it works for that individual student, it is 'a' right way to teach the exercise.

Let's all just remember: "There's always more than one way to skin a cat". Pun totally intentional!!