Calling level

pelmet · Post by **pelmet** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:13 pm

"Pilots shall report reaching the altitude to which the flight has
been initially cleared. When climbing or descending en route,
pilots shall report when leaving a previously assigned altitude
and when reaching the assigned altitude."

At the airport I fly out of, I usually get cleared to my flight planned altitude on first contact with centre. I have not been reporting level and ATC has never complained about it. It is radar airspace. Do you normally call when levelling?

hercdriver · Post by **hercdriver** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:30 pm

Being radar controlled does not relieve you of responsibility to call level. I imagine as airspace becomes more busy in Canada this requirement will change. Canada is one of the few countries in the world where you need to call level. The states or Europe simply would not be able to handle all the extra verbal garbage on freq. in most centres. I would revert back to calling level before ATC violates your A## should some kind of conflict ever arise.

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:37 pm

I will call level if there is time and space on the airways, if we are coming in or outta toronto it is busy so if I can get it in good, if not than I won't worry about it, again though if atc says report level well than it is a different story.

Twizzler · Post by **Twizzler** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:23 pm

The only airspace in Canada that you are NOT required to call level in is RVSM airspace when you have been radar identified.

That being said, on departure and arrival in YYZ I don't think it is prudent to call every intermediate level off, unless you are prompting ATC for higher or lower.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:21 pm

I only call level when the controller ask for it ... why tie up the freq with more useless blabber. Most of the time in the south you are on radar and the controller knows your level. So you know you're level, they know you're level .. lets just say .. you're level ..

Loc

J31 · Post by **J31** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:39 pm

Twizzler wrote:The only airspace in Canada that you are NOT required to call level in is RVSM airspace when you have been radar identified

Where does it say that? Any links?

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 5:21 am

RVSM TC AIM TP14371E

RAC 12.16.4(f) Pilot Level Call: Pilots shall report "reaching" any altitude assigned within RVSM non-radar airspace.

Not a big leap to infer no level call in radar airspace required....

Level calls are really important if separation is being based on what you are doing AND there is no mode C readout. If the controller needs to know you're level, he'll ask.

IFR Pilot · Post by **IFR Pilot** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:25 am

I asked Moncton and Montreal Centers a few weeks ago and concensus was that RVSM level calls in Canada are required...

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:39 am

IFR Pilot wrote:I asked Moncton and Montreal Centers a few weeks ago and concensus was that RVSM level calls in Canada are required...

RAC 12.16.4(f) Pilot Level Call: Pilots shall report "reaching" any altitude assigned within RVSM non-radar airspace.

Not a big leap to infer

Big leap no, but big fine... Just waste the bandwidth if asked and if not say you did and were stepped on.

Remember "it takes 2 to lie. 1 to lie and 1 to listen"

zzjayca · Post by **zzjayca** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:45 am

The level call in radar airspace isn't a big deal for me. I have already verified your mode C and can visually confirm when you are level.

A call I wish more pilots would make is to report leaving their altitude when they have been given descent clearance at pilot's discretion. This brings the controller's attention back to you since it may have been some time since you were given the clearance. Also, if there is a vertical split between sectors it reminds the controller to hand off your aircraft to the next sector prior to you levelling.

aileron · Post by **aileron** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:28 pm

Correction: My bad, section 11 pertains to NAT... where I speculate bandwidth congestion may be a factor.

aileron previously wrote: "Interestingly enough the AIM shows RAC 11.18 (a) & (b) as having changed the distinctive verbage from "shall" to "should"... sounds optional to me now (in radar at least or and obviously it's still ATC's prerogative)."

charlie_g · Post by **charlie_g** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:33 pm

zzjayca wrote:The level call in radar airspace isn't a big deal for me. I have already verified your mode C and can visually confirm when you are level.

I agree. In radar airspace it is pretty much redundant. Personally I don't care about the call, and when it's busy it is a waste of freq time. Unless I've specifically asked for the report of course. And non-radar you should always report level.

NAYA · Post by **NAYA** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:20 am

Never have called level, probably never will. Most certainly have never been told that I should have by Canadian ATC. My experience only.

R2000/1830 · Post by **R2000/1830** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:03 pm

how hard is it to say

ABC 123 level

it takes 2 seconds, why not do it.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:04 pm

R2000/1830 wrote:how hard is it to say

ABC 123 level

it takes 2 seconds, why not do it.

10 aircraft doing it turns into 20 seconds that's why

The Old Fogducker · Post by **The Old Fogducker** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:20 pm

And besides that, not calling level saves all that wear & tear on the microphone diaphram and output transistors .. sort of like those people who don't want to wear out their turn signal lights by turning on the clicker when they want to do a left turn at a stoplight and then indicate just a microsecond before doing the turn after holding up traffic behind them for what seems like eons.

So just how tough is it to call level? In severe mental overload running the top of climb checklist??

Fog

swordfish · Post by **swordfish** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:02 pm

This issue recently surfaced in Calgary, so I called YEG ACC and the supervisor replied that level, leaving, and initial calls with the target altitude are required, and he referred me to AIM RAC8.4

Bizarre that we have to clutter the airwaves with this apparently useless information, when they have so much info about us on radar.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:10 pm

And bizarre that an ACC supervisor would quote the AIM as a source of legal requirements.

Clothesliner · Post by **Clothesliner** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:53 pm

Hey clunkdriver,

Did that avatar of yours come from a certain little flight school wall in Eastern Ontario?

Canus Chinookus · Post by **Canus Chinookus** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:30 am

OK, hopefully this clears it up:

RAC 8.4 refers to IFR enroute procedures which to sum it up: call when leaving or arriving at an altitude, and state your altitude when joining a new frequency.

RAC 11.18 was mentioned. That entire section refers to north atlantic operations... not really relevant to the greater percentage of people here.

RAC 12.16.4 is specific about RVSM procedures (FL290-FL410) which states: "Pilots SHALL report "reaching" any altitude assigned within RVSM non-radar airspace."

swordfish · Post by **swordfish** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:45 am

So just how tough is it to call level? In severe mental overload running the top of climb checklist??

Have you flown in the oil patch of Alberta?

Sometimes it is so congested that you wait 3-4 minutes to speak to the controller; there are 5 frequency changes between Calgary and Grande Prairie (319 nm); every time you change frequency you have to report your altitude (er, helloe...? Mode-C u/s today??); plan your descent request 20 miles ahead of yor proposed TOD; delays from flow control add to this nightmare; and it is distracting and unnecessary to get a word in edgewise for this totally useless call in radar-controlled environment.

I am suggesting that we don't NEED to make all these calls for the same reasons we don't need to make full position reports crossing a mandatory reporting point. (i.e. the radar tells the controller our altitude, groundspeed, track error, vertical speed, ETA for destination, ident, type, plus God-only-knows what else).

At present, about 10% of us make the altitude calls required. If the other 90% start to follow suit, our flow control is going to go berserk with the workload on the controllers.

pelmet · Post by **pelmet** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:38 pm

Actually, although when starting this thread I did say that
I have not been calling level, I do give my altitude when checking in on a new frequecy. Everyone seems to do that, even when it is busy.

Pygmie · Post by **Pygmie** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:34 pm

pelmet wrote:Actually, . . . I do give my altitude when checking in on a new frequecy. Everyone seems to do that, even when it is busy.

And it's a good thing too, as if you didn't controllers are required to ask for it, otherwise the altitude readout on the radar is rather useless.

charlie_g · Post by **charlie_g** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:37 pm

Pygmie wrote:
pelmet wrote:Actually, . . . I do give my altitude when checking in on a new frequecy. Everyone seems to do that, even when it is busy.
And it's a good thing too, as if you didn't controllers are required to ask for it, otherwise the altitude readout on the radar is rather useless.

Indeed. You should include the alt on check-in, for validation purposes, and to make sure there wasn't a screw-up when the alt was passed to that sector by the previous controller. In this case you need to make the check-in transmission anyway, so the extra 1 second isn't really a waste. Otherwise I wouldn't get my gitch in a knot over it. Highly unlikely someone's going to hassle you for not making the call.

pelmet · Post by **pelmet** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:41 pm

Notice that the first sentence from the AIM says ""Pilots shall report reaching the altitude to which the flight has been INITIALLY cleared. "

What do they mean by "initially"?

Calling level

Calling level

Thats a roger