The age......when it is too late?

[armani]

Hi everyone,

Great forum and I would like to mention that I envy you all who is already a pilot....great job.

I have decided to post here as I hope people who read about employment would know more about it.

I am 35 years old and I want to become a pilot. What do you all think - is it too late??? Please, be realistic. I have just spoken to Air Canada pilot, who is 45, he started flying at 27 and it took him 15 years to get to where he is now. I am just thinking and trying to be as realistic as possible. I have family and two kids and I would not want to end up with 30,000 debt and get no prospects because I am too old and the age works against me. I have not a perfect eyesight and it might be getting worse. I love plains and always wanted to be a pilot. I could not do it after school, as the medical in Russia was extremely tough, you had to be 100% healthy. So I could not go after school beacuse of the eyesight Then I went to university, then to Canada and have been here for 7 years, so time went on. Please advice who can, how the situation is with the jobs and what are the real prospects from your experience. I have read all these nice prospects at school's web-sites, but I would love to talk to real people, who probably went through different stages. Thank you all in advance.

[2low]

I would just fly for fun.....you'll be 30,000 in the hole and making about the same. Keep your good paying job and just fly for fun. You will most likely not like the type of flying you will be doing at your first flying job. It's very hard on you, especially if you want to see your kids. If I could do it all again, I might think twice. But, if it's what you feel you want to do, let nothing stand in your way.

[armani]

Thank you for the post. The thing is, I don't have a good paying job anymore and I want to make a career change and being a pilot is the only thing I always wanted to do.

I have been reading through different web-sites and forums and find different info. It looked to me that the average age is about 35, already a pilot, some of the capts at major airlines. many possitive things and some negative. May be I am just naive and kid myself wanting to be a pilot at my age? well......

I guess what I need to do is to take a first flight (though I always loved flying and being on the plane) and get through medical and see where I stand and what my future might hold healthwise.

One thing that is great in my situation - my family is great and supportive, but I would not want to disappoint them, putting them in debts.

[WhatThe?]

it will be at least 2-years until you are "qualified" for your first job, then $1500-2000 month for the following few years if you are lucky enough to be hired!

I can assure you that you will have to move from wherever you are now, and probably a couple of times after that to make it to any level of pay and quality of company.

Yep $30,000 (closer to 35-40 today) in debt and few options at first.

BUT, you have another 20-25 years of flying ahead of you, good luck with whatever you do.

[TripleRomeo]

Armani,
I asked myself this question - When I am 70 sitting in a rocking chair and looking back on my life, will I regret the fact that I did not give my passion the best effort that I could? What legacy will I leave my children -give up on your dreams?
I do not believe a passion is placed in a person without the ability to achieve it.
My opinion, for what it is worth:
The airlines need to hire a good mix of ages to ensure a solid pilot base throughout the years. With that in mind, always take the first step - you can't succeed if you don't start.
Then, do some research and get your Class 1 medical from a doc that will really give you the gears.
Are you located near a progressive flight school where there is room for movement up the ladder? If so, book an introductory flight. Do you still have the passion?
If yes, do the Rec Pilot Licence. Did you ace both the ground school AND the flying?
If no - you have a licence in your pocket to take a passenger flying on nice days.
If yes - carry on and get your Private and work or volunteer there part time answering phones, completing log books, fuelling, anything. Keep your day job.
Once your Private is done - re evaluate. Then ask - what is the WORST that could happen if I continue? If it is losing your family then simply take them flying on the occasional family vacation and forget the flying career. If it just means losing $40 grand, well, you can lose $40 grand many ways and not have so much fun doing it.
I think this big decision should be made after the Private Pilot Licence, not prior to your first flight.

[duplicate2]

If yes - carry on and get your Private and work or volunteer there part time answering phones, completing log books, fuelling, anything. Keep your day job.

TripleRomeo is giving you excellent advice, except for the volunteering. Never do for free what the employer would otherwise be paying someone for.

[armani]

Thank you for you support and advice, I really appreciate it. I understand your point and agree with you.

If I had 40,000, I would spend it on a licence, that is for sure. But the problem is - I have to borrow it from the bank and I don't think I would feel good about it if I borrowed and spent 10k just to fulfill my passion and dream, so I could have a private licence and I could take my family in the air one day to have fun. May be I am wrong, and may be life made me such an extra carefull person.If I get in the hole, I drag my family along and here in Canada is noone to help us out. The only way I would go for it, if I get a commercial licence. I am ready to spend 10 years working toward airline or something else which pays the bills. Saying all this, I am planing to go for medical and then I will see how it goes from there.

[HighBypass]

Just make sure you can get at least $8000-$9000 first for a PPL.

Also remember that you wont be making more then $30G's per year in your first 5 years in the industry. (unless your really lucky like my friend.)

I know a guy that is 53 and is working dispatch waiting to fly right reat on a Twin Otter...so really i wouldn't worry about your age. What I would be concerned about is making your family(wife) miserable by being in debt a lot of cash, and your childrens welfare by having to move to far away places every couple years becasue you want to upgrade your job.

The advice about going at the Licence process slowly is a good one. Dont put all your eggs in one basket.

[duplicate2]

Also remember that you wont be making more then $30G's per year in your first 5 years in the industry.

Maybe on average over those 5 years? Maybe not even then. I would plan on $15-20,000 to be conservative.

Don't forget the part where your family will have to move to whatever godforsaken place you get a job. Ever heard of Pickle Lake, Norman Wells or Calgary?

[armani]

Thank you all. I have already spoken to my wife and if I get a job somewhere up north, the family stays here, in Oakville, ON. yes, I have heard about all these places. I used ot be editing documantaries and I have done a lot of them about Nunavut, Yukon, Victoria island and so on, so I know what is all about. But what surprises me 15-20 a year up there, that is almost nothing. I don't know if my university degree would ever help, but I have got that one.

[shack]

Thank you all. I have already spoken to my wife and if I get a job somewhere up north, the family stays here,

Great! more kids to grow up without a male role model while daddy puts on a white scarf to go play pilot for 15k a year. And no, your university degree will be only helpful if you crash and need something to eat.

From my end it sounds pretty selfish what you are asking from your family. I'd really do some more homework, and editing nature videos about the majestic North isn't homework.

Shackelton

[cyyz]

I could not do it after school, as the medical in Russia was extremely tough, you had to be 100% healthy. So I could not go after school beacuse of the eyesight Then I went to university, then to Canada and have been here for 7 years, so time went on.

I suggest you try Russia again for that medical, 7 years have passed, so you could apply to that crazy AeroFlot and whoever else is flying over there....

[armani]

I asked for advice and not for sarcastic comments of yours. Keep it to yourself.

I would not comment about russian pilots, they are very well trained. I think that 70% of all Canadian pilots would not pass their medical and entry exams. They study 4 years as minimum and fly every day for two hours, on props and jets, right in college and all this is FREE. I am not even talking about military. So, just be respectfull. Is it hockey syndrom working in you??

[armani]

Thank you all. I have already spoken to my wife and if I get a job somewhere up north, the family stays here,

Great! more kids to grow up without a male role model while daddy puts on a white scarf to go play pilot for 15k a year. And no, your university degree will be only helpful if you crash and need something to eat.

From my end it sounds pretty selfish what you are asking from your family. I'd really do some more homework, and editing nature videos about the majestic North isn't homework.

Shackelton

I appreciate your comment as well and I have to tell you I love my family and we will do what is best for the family and its well being. There were times, when I had to be away for few months at a time for a year and it was not a problem. I supported them financialy very well. I thought it was better than sitting at home and getting 25k a year editing and trying to get ends meet. What about truck drivers, do you think they are selfish too? It is a very hard job and they do it to support their families, not to be away from them.

[shack]

What about truck drivers, do you think they are selfish too? It is a very hard job and they do it to support their families, not to be away from them.

Wow you really have done you homework, so you think the demands on pilots are the same as those on truck drivers? Are truck drivers behind their rig for an entire year? Your first job will entail 1-2 years of ground time/dues paying time with NO VACATION TIME, a remote location and a bill of about 1000 bucks to fly one way out of said location. Selfish selfish selfish...have you heard of AIDS (aviation induced divorce syndrome)? Ask around...for what it will cost you in buying fractional use of your own aircraft to enjoy, you can keep your family and not disgrace yourself with this thinking.

I am not doing this because I am evil or have any dislike for you, but have seen FAR too many families DESTROYED by this industry and those that "think" they've been called to slip the surely bonds. It's a load of crap, and when you're on your deathbed, if Buddha were to offer you one extra hour of life, I gurantee you'll take the hour with those you love over an hour in some shitbox airplane in the middle of nowhere.

I do wish you the best in this industry, and hope you are very careful here, because you're playing with fire. There certainly is a happy medium to be struck that can keep you and your loved ones happy; I hope that you find it. Fly Safe.

[TripleRomeo]

Armani,
Had some more thoughts about your question.
Still think it wise to go for the Recreational Pilot Permit first to see how you do with the content of the course and the written exams. This is a lost cost (relatively speaking) way to assess the big step you are hoping to take. I was serious when I talked about taking the family up in the air on occasion. The sooner you can involve them in your passion and get them excited about it the more support you have for the long haul. Give them navigation duties, teach them about weather, give the kids material to write about at school - my Dad's a pilot....he took me flying this weekend, I did the mapreading.... What does your wife love? Is it a shopping trip to someplace you can fly to? Is it a weekend getaway to an out of the way place you can only fly into?.....you get the idea.
Then, if you want to really go for it, then just go for it. You had already planned in your mind you would borrow about $40 000, how about this idea - buy a 172 or a share in a 172. Make sure it is IFR equipped. Get the Private, Commercial and SIFR on the 172. Do whatever it takes to convince your contacts in your life to "contribute to the gas" so they can go flying. Then Sell the plane - they don't lose their value and recoup the capital. Then, refinance a new loan to get the Multi IFR. This avenue should save you about 30% of the costs of all the training.
Where are you located? I know of some people who are putting together a group of shareholders in a new DA40 - glass cockpit I believe.
I realize that the volunteer idea was rejected by some... but sometimes you need to create a need for your services - even people with large credentials will do this to get noticed and carve a niche for themselves. I have found over the years that underpromising and overdelivering often gets you to the top like cream rising to the surface.
If a passion is inside you, its there for a reason, and if the reason is right the means to get there will be possible and it will be possible to accomodate those dearest to you. That being said, my two cents worth, family is first - make all decisions with their safety, security, benefit in the forefront.
Also, you didn't mention if you were working or not, or I missed that. If you are unemployed I believe there may be grant money from the government for training and creating a demand for your services - worth a try, but if there is something available be prepared for LOTS of paperwork.

RRR

[armani]

Thank you Shack. I do know what you are talking about. I have worked for 15 years in entertainment industry, involving touring. There were many divorces seen. But all people are different. I really understand your point and appreciate your opinion. But I said that we will do what is best for the family.

As for the truck drivers....I have friends who work as a truck driver. They are home for just one-two days between trips. 8 days off 1 day home. NO vacation, as the vacation means they are not going to make extra 6-8,000, so they continue working.

You sound like a nice family man. I will remember what you have said here.

[armani]

Thank you Triple Romeo.

I have checked this already. No grants or money for flying, no way. I am working evenings, still editing and looking for new opportunities.

[cyyz]

I asked for advice and not for sarcastic comments of yours. Keep it to yourself.

I would not comment about russian pilots, they are very well trained. I think that 70% of all Canadian pilots would not pass their medical and entry exams. They study 4 years as minimum and fly every day for two hours, on props and jets, right in college and all this is FREE. I am not even talking about military. So, just be respectfull. Is it hockey syndrom working in you??

Whatever, close the door on yourself.. Don't bother going to Quebec either, you're not a "true" francophone.. and don't go north, you're not native enough...

and as for "top notch safety and test standards"

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europ ... .aviation/

In the early 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet Union, the country's mammoth airline, Aeroflot, was broken up into smaller companies. Morale and professionalism plummeted -- and so did safety levels.

Today, there are 117 passenger airlines in Russia -- some of them so small they have to rent their planes

According to an international monitoring group, the Interstate Aviation Committee, 80 percent of aviation accidents in the former Soviet Union over the past 10 years were caused by human error.

with new planes, better training and

But whatever, like I said, go and check about your medical again, and if push comes to shove I'm sure you could bribe the doctor... But anyways... You know what's best...

http://www.bisnis.doc.gov/bisnis/country/AVIAIS.HTM

and again for "rigourous testing and schooling... Its a blog, but whatever...

,
many of Russia's new rich are fascinated by flying. These
individuals, long prevented from engaging in private flying,
promise to become avid consumers of general aviation aircraft
during the next decade.

FAA has been working with the Russian Interstate Aviation
Committee (MAK) and the Russian Department of Air Transport
(DAT) to develop this framework. Aviation laws defining rules
for general and commercial aviation have been submitted to the
Russian parliament for consideration.

[armani]

Thanks, now I know that I have to avoid people like you if I want to get hired.

[airliner]

Aell Armani it almost sounds like you already know what you want to do.
I will say that in my 6 years of flying i have seen many older people make a career change to aviation. Most have them have made quite a sucess,but its not all roses. Most people have said the first couple years are going to be tough. On the other hand your age could be an asset since you show experence and maturity. I you decide to make the jump only do it if you have the suport of your family. Since aviation is global ,and you most likely will end up moving. Their happiness is the key to yours.
good luck.

[airliner]

Well Armani it almost sounds like you already know what you want to do.
I will say that in my 6 years of flying i have seen many older people make a career change to aviation. Most have them have made quite a sucess,but its not all roses. Most people have said the first couple years are going to be tough. On the other hand your age could be an asset since you show experence and maturity. I you decide to make the jump only do it if you have the suport of your family. Since aviation is global ,and you most likely will end up moving. Their happiness is the key to yours.
good luck.

[armani]

No, Airliner, I am not sure yet, I have to see how the medical goes, I will talk to the bank and see from there. If I get into it I know it is not going to be a bed of roses and I am ready for it. As I mentioned one thing that worries me is the age, and it tends to work against. When I spoke to AC pilot, he really didn't have much to say about it as he started long time ago and didn't know current situation. But he did say that the odds are against me, as I will be competing with the younger guys. He also mentioned that he had seen pilots failing medical and losing their jobs and they were all between 40-50..... My thoughts are, that the life is not easy now either (career-wise)and has not been except for few years, so the prospects of another 5 years of hard time don't scare me. But If I don't make a change I might end up living the way I live now all the time - this is what I don't want. Moving.....I have been moving a lot in my life.

My family has been great and of course I won't do things which would hurt them in any way.

[onfinal]

Hello Armani, I started flying Commercially when I was 34 and have not stopped since if you want to fly you will age,money will not deter you.As for moving your family ,I have brought mine from Vancouver Island to the frozen North last summer it is an adjustment to be sure but we are together.Now is most likely the best time to join aviation as the industry is a long and hard row to hoe.Many people in our industry that will work for free or even to pay to work.Like many Canadians they believe it is up to the goverment to put a stop to these terrible companys.I wonder if everyone refused to work under above conditions how many "Bad operaters" would be left.I have no regrets flying it is a fullfilling career,I am not sure about the majors as I am flying for a smaller outfit.If you want any further info you can pm me

Cheers, Keeping the dirty side down always!

[classiv]

Armani,

Give your head a shake!

You're going to go $40K in the hole, and when you graduate you're going to have to start making payments on your $40K.

(Also remember, $40K is just the starting point. You still have to allocate funds for build-up time, road trip expenses, supplementary money to live while you're not working).

Next, you're going to have to go looking for a job. Getting your licenses is the easy, this is where things start getting tough.

Your going to spend 1000's more dollars driving around to every location prefixed with the lovely term "Fort" looking for work, only to hear you don't have enough hours.

Most Chief Pilots that I've met on road trips have been very kind and they'll talk to you, but if you don't have the hours you don't have the hours. Or they're just not looking for anyone.

You'll be competing with 20 year-old rich kids who offer to work for free and who can do so because Dad paid for all their training and they have no debt. It's not fair, but that's life.

However, if you luck out you might get a Ramp job, meaning you'll be doing slave labor for 1 to 3 years for peanut wages in locations where groceries are twice the price of anything in the cities.

Also consider this, the industry is in a bit of an upswing right now. However, aviation is very up and down... this upswing will probably last maybe another year or two, then it will go down again. So if you do it, make sure you do your training on the 'fast track' program or you could graduate on the wrong side of the curve.

My advice to you is this:

1. Do more research. It sounds to me like you're in dreamland. Can't blame you, I've been there too.

2. Honestly, if you were really rich and money wasn't an issue, I'd say sure, go for it. Why not? But if you have to borrow the whole $40K, you're already in trouble.

3. If you do decide to do it, play what angles you have to seperate your self from the hundreds of other pilots out there looking for work. Try to find some Canadian-Russian pilots who might give you an 'in' because you're one of them.

Sorry for the bad news. I had to give up the dream because I just couldn't afford to survive on what pilots make in the country with a family. I couldn't even live on a WJ pilot's salary, and that's someone with probably 6 years plus experience.

If I was single and didn't mind living in 1 bedroom basement suites, sure, not a problem. But that's not practical when you have real responsibilites, which you have.

Go into with your eyes wide open man! Good luck in what ever you decide to do!