Choosing an Instructor Based on his Class

[TorontoGuy]

I've googled around and can't find an answer to this question:

What makes the difference between a Class 1,2,3 and 4 flight instructor? and if you are brand new as a student pilot, does it matter what Class of instructor you have?

I do know that a Class 4 instructor is a beginner. How does a Class 4 advance to the upper classes? What are the criteria? I do understand it has to do with experience, but I can't find any solid info on what the differences are.

I ask because last weekend I went for an introductory flight lesson with a Class 4 instructor. I'm doing my RPP. We seemed to hit it off in terms of personalities. I think (and will question him further) that his instructing philosophy and methods match what I know are my best ways to learn anything new. I think that is vitally important.

Since I'm new at flight training, I am, of course, concerned that:
a) I'm not being instructed by a yahoo
b) the instructor has enough experience to deal with various students' needs, so that he doesn't try to instruct each student in the same way.

Because, afterall, during instruction in the air, am I placing my life in his hands.

So, I'm asking this question with regard to my personal safety in the air. For instance, if a totally f*ck up on my first spin or spiral, does it really matter if the right seat is occupied by a Class I or Class IV?

As an important aside: I'm not, therefore, looking for comments on whether a Class 4 instructor might try to soak me for more lessons to build hours and line his pockets. I'm capable of guarding my finances.

Cheers and thanks in advance for any information.

[TorontoGuy]

P.S.

This instructor that I went up with last weekend said that we might have some sessions together that are totally on the ground. i.e. non-flying sessions. Does that make sense/sound right?

[5x5]

Here's a few answers in no particular order. Yes, ground sessions with no flying are very normal and in fact extremely important in a student's progress. These sesisons are used to explain the exercises - both the theory and the actual physical conduct of them - prior to doing them in the plane. The briefing room is free and the plane isn't. Along with a good demo, the ground session combined with student review prepares for a satisfactory in-flight lesson that will take the least amount of time possible.

As for the class 4 thing, it's a debate that will go on for ever. In my opinion, any class instructor can be proficient or not. You mentioned that you got along well with instructor you flew with and that your attitudes aligned and that's very important. Often times a class 4 will give students extra attention and prepare better themself because they aren't as experienced. They know what they need to teach, just haven't done it many times yet. They are also under the supervision of a class 2 or class 1 and should be reviewing each flight and lesson with their supervisor as you go along. You get the benefit of their preparation, enthusiasm and the experience (albeit second-hand) of the supervising instructor.

As for progressing, CARS has the regulations, but to get to a class three they have to have 3 student's solo and 3 successful recommends for a flight test (not required to be the same students). As a class 3 they no longer require supervision. Further progression (class 2 or 1) is a matter of their choice and a combination of instructing record and testing.

Hope that helps.

[FlyByWire]

5X5 is right except for one small detail. To upgrade to a class II rating, you have to recommend a further 7 flight tests and have at least 500 hours of instructing under your belt.

That being said, the number of flight tests an instructor has recommended is not the only indicator of their experience. For example, an instructor may have a lot of experience giving checkouts on the taildragger, teaching float ratings or IFR's. None of these contribute towards the flight test requirement for an upgrade, but they certainly contribute to that instructor's knowledge base and experience.

In the end, the most important thing is that you feel comfortable with your instructor and their teaching style. You will be spending a lot of money flying, so son't be afraid to speak up if don't thing he or she is meeting your needs. Most instructors will try and be as accomodating as possible, after all, you're buying their KD!

[duplicate2]

So, I'm asking this question with regard to my personal safety in the air. For instance, if a totally f*ck up on my first spin or spiral, does it really matter if the right seat is occupied by a Class I or Class IV?

I agree with everything said so far but no one answered this part.

Probably the 2 most dangerous things you can do in a small trainer are a spin or spiral. The main way to screw up a spin during practice is to fail to get into one properly. In any case, your instructor will be expecting a proper spin or spiral recovery, and if you don't do it they will take control and save their own ass. All classes of instructors have the same fear of dying and will usually strive to prevent it.

Overall, you have basically nothing to worry about from a safety standpoint with a Class IV. The biggest issue is, will they be able to pass their knowledge and skill on to you? Having meshing personalities is an important first step.

If you're unsure about the guy you already flew with, do another famil ride with someone else or even better at a different school. It will give you a frame of reference.

As for ground briefings, don't be put off by paying for ground time. It's saving you bucks in the air. Do your homework and be prepared and it will be quick. Show up without knowing anything and it will take long and cost more.

[aero220]

There is quite a bit of debate to if class matters and what the best class for a students needs would be.

I have known a lot of people who have thought; higher class, more experience, how could they go wrong in choosing a class 1 over a class 4? well it may not always be that simple. Generally at most schools, the class 4's get most Rec-Commercial students and the higher class instructors are put into the position of teaching multi and IFR.

If you choose a class 4 or 3 to train with, they have probably done twice as much general training in the last year than a class 1 who has done a mixture of training. The lower class instructor will probably have sharper skills in basic training because that is all that they have done and they get alot of practice at it.

I know a great class 1 instructor who did some multi and instrument work with me and I found their style to be great and I got alot from their vast experience. When my friend did some basic training (Private licence) with him, he found almost the opposite and did not get alot from the lessons because the instructor had lost alot of his patience because he was used to working with commercial pilots who were already competent to the basic levels of flight. This instructor had also had a few close calls through his career, and was a bit more cautious with exercises (for good reasons) than a class 4 who would have never had the crap scared out of him yet. Lower class instructors will typically let students go further and are less "grabby" of the controls, which allows some to learn at a faster pace.

In general, I would suggest you look at instructor class once you get into more advanced training, but for the basic stuff, most class 4's are more than competent and may even provide some advantages.

[seneca]

i would have to agree with most comments here other than class 1 losing their basic skills. most of these folks are teaching instructor ratings which are made up them passing on their knowledge of abintio training to class IV's candidates.

personality is one of the biggest factors, they have the skills but do you mix well?

just for the record some of the best instructors who i have supervised class IV to class I were the lower classes who were egar and not tired of instructing or waiting for that big job and just doing enough to get by!

[Hedley]

One problem with a class 4 is that he needs to be supervised by the CFI, and you have to pay for that supervision.

I had a student come to me, all pissed off because she had done her pre-flight test at a Big School with her class 4 instructor, who afterwards told her that she had to then do an additional pre-flight test with the CFI, before she could be recommended for her flight test.

So she came to the school I was CFI at. We did one flight, I recommended her, she passed her flight test, and last I heard, she was headed for Alaska.

See Transport requires that a class 4 be supervised by the CFI (or another class 2/1 instructor) and the FTU will expect you to pay for it.

If you have a class 2/1 instructor, the extra flights aren't required, which saves you money.

It's up to you.

[wha happen]

dont forget class 3's also dont require supervision.

[chipmunk]

If you have a class 2/1 instructor, the extra flights aren't required, which saves you money.

No "extra" flights are required, if the Class IV instructor plans properly. The supervising instructor doesn't need to go on a "ride along" check flight, it makes more sense to incorporate the supervisory flight in a lesson that the student needs anyway and still "check up" on how the IV is teaching... i.e. runway changes, performance takeoffs, etc.

I hope I wasn't the only Class IV out there who made it as cost-efficient as possible for my students...

[Hedley]

dont forget class 3's also dont require supervision.

Correct. Just to clarify, CAR 421.62(2) specifies:

flight progress checks for each student at intervals to be specified by the supervising flight instructor, but at least once before the first solo flight and once before the flight test for issue of the pilot licence;

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#421_62

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against class 4 instructors, I used to be one myself, in, uh 1992.

But people should be informed consumers and know what they're purchasing, and if an FTU is going to charge the same for a class 4 as any other instructor, the customer shouldn't be penalized by having to pay for the extra supervision flights by the CFI, imho.

[Hedley]

DP, argh.

[chipmunk]

I agree with you, Hedley, that the student shouldn't be penalized.

The CARS do not say that supervisory flights must be just of the "check ride" type. No where does it say they can't be a lesson that the student needs anyway. My supervisor and school not only encouraged it, it was deemed completely acceptable by several TC employees and/or DFTEs who occasionally flew at my FTU. The school I worked at charged the same rate to the student regardless of the instructor's class, so cost wasn't an issue.

[5x5]

If that student was being required to do extra flights specifically with the supervising instructor then they were in fact being ripped. A reputable school will not do that. The supervising instructor must go along on a certain number of flights to see first-hand where the Class 4 could use some help or development. These flights are just part of the regular training. (And there's no additional charge for the Class 1's time.)

Someone asked in another thread why a student pays the same for a class 4 - it's because the student is in essence getting the time of two instructors. The supervising instructor spends between 10 - 20 minutes per flight discussing the plan before and the performance after. This same amount of time is being spent by the Class 4 and there is no direct charge to the student for it. Over the course of a licence it's quite a bit of extra time outside of the flight lessons themselves.

But, besides being an excellent check and balance for the student, it's all a part of the ongoing learning, development and support of top quality flight instructors. And that's how a good school builds and maintains an excellent reputation over the years.

[shitdisturber]

Doing two preflight tests isn't required and I'll go along with the majority that a student is getting screwed if they're having to do it. Back when I was a CFI; the Class 4 would do the lessons and any review necessary until they thought the student was ready for a pre-flight, at which time I'd go up with the student. A quick debrief of the pre-flight with the instructor and student of the good, the bad, and the ugly; then the Class 4 took over until it was time for the flight test. Except in very rare cases; ie years between preflights, or a horrible student, and I've seen both; you should never have more than one preflight on any licence.

[Aeros]

shitdisturber -- I am not sure that I understand your post. Are you saying that you as the supervising instructor did the pre-flight test?

[TorontoGuy]

Lessons have already been explained to me and there are no extra ones involved. The only thing I didn't know, which came out in this discussion, is that the CFI will come with me one day. But at no time have I been told it will be an extra flight at extra expense to me. And I know I'm at a highly reputable school.

On another note, one of the front desk staff whispered to me as an aside that sometimes the IVs are better because they're fresher while some of the I's can get a bit bored.

In the end, the guy and I seem to get along and he's been asking me in what ways I learn best, which I think is a big bonus question to be asked of a student.

[StepOnTheBall]

Lower class instructors will typically let students go further and are less "grabby" of the controls, which allows some to learn at a faster pace.

I think you've got this one backwards...

[shitdisturber]

shitdisturber -- I am not sure that I understand your post. Are you saying that you as the supervising instructor did the pre-flight test?

Yup, and then the student would go back to the Class 4 to fix anything that needed brushing up prior to the flight test. Only one preflight required or done.

[duplicate2]

shitdisturber -- I am not sure that I understand your post. Are you saying that you as the supervising instructor did the pre-flight test?

Yup, and then the student would go back to the Class 4 to fix anything that needed brushing up prior to the flight test. Only one preflight required or done.

Does this not prevent the Class IV from getting their recommends to move up to Class III? I thought the recommending instructor has to do the pre-flight test.

Aside from that, the Class IV is missing out on the experience of administering the pre-flight test, which they will obviously have to do when they are a III. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

[Aeros]

I'm with duplicate2. The expectation is that the person that is recommending the candidate for the flihgt test is the one that is supposed to complete the pre-flight test.

If you read the statement on the recommendation form it indicates that you (the person making the recommendation) have personally completed the pre-flight test.

[Switchfoot]

Many of the rewards in aviation will come from how much effort you put into the training itself. The more you learn and study on your own, the more you will get out of your flight training.

Finding an instructor who you get along with well will go a long way throughout your training. Class shouldn't matter too much, although a II or I should have a little more teaching experience and have been through more than a IV.

If you're contemplating some advanced training, try to find someone who has some 'real-world' experience, for example, someone who has flown a lot of IFR or multi. That should help. Unfortunately, that's not always possible within the flight school environment.

Good luck and enjoy your training!



Switch.

[mduffy]

I've always thought that the best instructor was a fiarly new Class 3. Somewhat experienced, but still highly motivated. Without a doubt, I have heard more complaints from ab-initio students flying with Class 2's or 1's than class4's.

Hang around the airport and see who comes up to see if you need help. Do a few discovery flights - then just pick the instructor you got along with the best. In the grand scheme of things you'll want to be able to look back and be able to say you had fun learning!

[shitdisturber]

shitdisturber -- I am not sure that I understand your post. Are you saying that you as the supervising instructor did the pre-flight test?

Yup, and then the student would go back to the Class 4 to fix anything that needed brushing up prior to the flight test. Only one preflight required or done.

Does this not prevent the Class IV from getting their recommends to move up to Class III? I thought the recommending instructor has to do the pre-flight test.

Aside from that, the Class IV is missing out on the experience of administering the pre-flight test, which they will obviously have to do when they are a III. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Nope, the recommending instructor does not have to do the preflight. I've ended up with recommends having only flown a review flight with students when their original instructors quit after doing the preflight. In the case of a Class 4, they must have done 5 of the last 10 hours of dual training to qualify for the recommend.

As to missing out on the experience of a preflight, so what; a preflight is nothing earth shattering from the instructor's side of the airplane. You go out, run through the exercises in order; take notes as to what the student did, and grade them accordingly. The only issue a new Class 3 has ever had is how to grade the exercises in my experience. Again no problem, all they ever had to do, and they did; was come up to me and say, "this is what happened, how do I score it?" I'd tell them how to score it and why, problem solved.

[cyyz]

Hot little asian chicks.. They're the best instructors......

Oh, wrong kind of "class.... " I see...

Good day gents...